Advice on what Polish city to invest in....

Hi Nick & Anna and Polanglik,

The statement you make about the Polish capital gains tax is competely WRONG

Whilst from 2007 the CGT on resales is 19% for Poles with national ID and or living in Poland they can resell after ONE year and pay NO CGT.

For overseas Buyers - they can STILL have a ZERO CGT if they own the property for 5 years or more.

Where your information comes from I don;t know but the above is the correct TAX position now!

I am buying a flat near The Old Town in the next 2 weeks and am struggling to find a n independant English speaking Notary in Poland. The vendor says use their Notary but I am concerned about this. Have you used a good Notary I could contact?

The old town in which city ?

Krakov

What would be better? To purchase a plot of land or a flat?

I will be meeting an english speaking Krackow based notary in Gdansk on wednesday. If you like I can get his contact details and pass them on to you.

Just back from Lodz. Prices rocketing there but is it a false market ? It seems to be all foreign speculators who will be offloading within 2 years. Are any locals buying at these prices? love to know the real story.

Soon It will crush just like happened in Spain and elswhere... you're too late.

Thanks grzeg, but i made a lot of money in spain. If i can do half as well in poland i'll be happy.

Hi Gloios,

Try making contact with DKM who have a branch in both Krakow and Warsaw and provide Real Estate Agency services at British professional standards to both Poles and Overseas buyers. All their staff speak very good English and they have many options of buying ready built or 'off - plan ' whichever suits you most.
By the way they are properly licensed also - something not many agencies are!

Hi Johnny,

My firm is selling many properties in Lodz and whilst many are being sold to overseas investors we also have at least 50% of each development being sold to Locals.

This means two things:-
1. The Locals CAN afford the prices
2. The apartments are attractive to them

It also confirms that this is going to be a good investment and with prices rising in Lodz the way they are and the way they are predicted to continue over the next five years, I would be very confident in buying in good locations in the city.

You can email me for more details if you wish - but the prices are fantastic and the deposit is only 15%

Really - 50% of a development taken by foreigners is a high percentage - to me that is a sign that there is not so much local demand at these prices. And of course eventually for those foreigners to make your much vaunted 30% returns they will need to find local buyers - not easy in a town with a small middle class like Lodz.

Michael C is having professional interest in his posts. beware of his misrepresentions and unfounded claims. he can tell you whatever you want to hear and he is bound by nothing.

his company is not a developer but a sales agent. so better go directly to developer and save the agent's commission. it is as easy as that and do not listen to agents who use the forum to fool people.

To be fair, Michael C has had his facts right on tax,vat and legal issues, which is more than can said for some posts.
The forum is about sharing information and ideas and this guy seems helpful.

sure, no problem with that, he knows what he says about tax and legal issues. but then these are commonalities which one can find in official websites... you need the links?

yet, all the rest is unfounded bull...t sales-talk! the guy tries to make a living by fishing customers in this forum. he is a sales agent - he is trying to push on you an appartment. and in order to succeed in that he will promise you anything. of course, he will not mention troubling things, like for instance that lately prices in krakow are falling slowly... or he cannot really tell you much about renting situation in secondary polish cities... cause there is no any!

not to mention misrepresantion issues. michael is saying in a previous post that his company "...is selling many properties..." Well, from a legal point of view he is not selling anything. the developer is the owner and the developer is selling. michaels company is an agent, which means he brings together the parties, the developer on one side acting as seller and you on the other side acting as buyer so that you come to an agreement and solely you two conclude a sales contract. so to be clear again, michaels company is not selling (as he claims), it is simply acting as an agent on commission.

to put the record straight: nothing against michael who in any other respect may be an excellent person. yet when i see a post saying in so many words: do you know you can double your money by buying appartments in poland? you did not? well, contact us, we are selling these appartments! To such post i feel obliged to answer in a comensurate manner, that is in as blunt words as the sales post is phrased into...

Donomar

You say & i quote" like for instance that lately prices in krakow are falling slowly"

Can you confirm where you get this info from so as people who are interested in this forum & use its advise & comments by others , can check the validity of your accusations towards MC

Was it in a newspaper article,a TV report,local estate agent infor,The natinal statistics for house price inflation in Poland or specifically Krakow,perhaps some investment forum or somewhere else ,please advise

It would be great if you could put a link to it for everyone to check out

the rednet report on residential property in poland

Dmmmm or whatever...

apart from rednet reports, one can read reports from KPMG and PWC, etc. They all point out to the fact that the crazy ride is OVER! from now on there will be selectivity, equilibrium, adaptation, etc. I hope a prospective buyer checks these reports (which also though can be biased) and put less faith in a sellers comment (in that case michael) that in so many words solicits the ignorant novice.

it comes as no surprise that you wanted to check the validity of my comment and not michaels sales talk validity. you stand to loose more from MY advice to get better informed and stay away from blood thirsty sales agents. i understand your point of view...

today is also on the news that DOM developer (one of the biggest in warsaw) has another bunch of thousands apartments in the pipeline for the capital. where all leads to: stay away and wait. wait till those who buy for investment purposes and pay off with interest only morgages do not get a tenant. the situation will get dramatic in the next 3-4 years. there will be many opportunities to buy for those with cash. now you stand at the top of the cycle. it will become a buyers market soon.

if you have to invest now, go for land. the best you could do - but do not expect any agent to tell you that, they stand to earn nothing from that...

Donomar

i have just spent 20mins searching KPMG & PWC oland & cant track down the reports that you mention - can you give me a link or let me know the name of the report

thanks

sure, no prob, easy as i work for KPMG, send me your email address and i will attach them for you. its not a publicly published report yet, though i can send you the relevant pages... though, i doubt you mean to get informed.

did you check the monthly rednet reports, because you seem to mention nothing about that... hold on, let me guess, you hold in higher esteem the claims of michael c rather than the findings of rednet consulting, right? not really supporting your fake promises for extraordinary profits!

Dmmm or Michael C or in whatever nickname you appear here, pls try to understand that sales talk is not welcome here. in another post somebody said, listen i am an agent, if you want to buy in such and such area, give me a call. that is alright, its direct, its not sublime. you cannot play the smart by giving us sales talk and then try to blind us with "free" advice. your sales talk will be met with fierce criticism. get it?

by the way, is Dmmmm and Michael C the same person? you are both located in london, interested in property and subscribed to the forum within couple of days. and Dmmm is strongly supporting Michael C! many coincedences here....

@ moderator
in some forums it is not allowed for members to register under many nicknames. i would say that this is unnice if "one" member declares to be using the forum for sales and ther "other" pays tribute to the first...

as for the rest of the viewers with honest intentions to get informed, here is the link to recently published report about lodz

<http://www.kpmg.pl/dbfetch/52616e646f6d4956f55eefd7c2c8c47b95a180645e e56e8d73b7b803d8108364/2007.05.15_____d___-_dlaczego_warto.pdf>

going back to the original question, which was were to invest, well lodz is appearing as a good bet. however, its not like that that you go over there and you buy an appartment from a developer and you are done! far from that!!! you may be left with a hot potato in your hands.

the only project that makes a difference and its worth its money is the sold out project of uscheiblera. the usheiblera and the manufaktura are in residential and commercial area of investment respectively the most unique projects carried out in europe. as far as i know the rest of the developements are of quite bad quality and they are not worth the price - with possible exception the barzinsky park. developers are making a quicky on the ignorant irish etc...

to say that again: i do not refer to the case of an appartment to stay yourself, i refer to buying appartment as an investment.

buying land in the area around lodz is a top investment choice, yet with many difficulties in carrying out the deal...

Donomar,
You accuse michael m of misrepresenting the facts.lets look at you!
Lately prices in Krakow are falling slowly. How does that explain the rednet last quarter gain in krakow in excess of 8% .
You say that it will be a buyers market soon.Yet you talk about land being a top investment choice(true).Does it not follow that if developers are paying more and more for plots then the price of new build flats will go up !
You talk of the majority of new build developments being of bad quality and not worth the price ,what do you base this on? The Sheiblera development is top end ,but not everyone who rents wants to pay top end rental prices.
You claim there is no rental market in Lodz,according to who? I have been to lodz and spoken to a number of agents ,seen numerous contracts and i simply cannot agree with you.
Finally ,your negativity and frequent inaccuracy in respect of the new build situation in Poland is unhelpful to existing and new forum members looking to invest in new build.

Hi Kneehawk

It's great to hear somebody with a positive approach. Poland has a long way to go before prices fall or even level. With over 1.5 million units in shortfall and with increasing land prices coupled with rising costs of building materials there is only one way for the market to go. Leasing multi story cranes is very expensive operation. Why are there thousands of them in the sky?

Arthur (Krakow)

Hi Arthur,
Thanks for your encouragement

I just get pissed off with people that spout off on subjects they know nothing about and have no experiance in.It is also annoying to see someone having a pop at an individuals proffessional capacity when they do not know that individual and the standard of service that they provide for their fee.Rather than slate michael first ,why not ask him what services are included in his fee.There are good agents and bad agents, you cannot assume all agents are bad and in any case every investor should conduct their own due diligence.

kneehawk

i am not accusing, just put the record straight. he is not selling, he is an agent looking to find customers for developer so that he takes commission.
may-june prices fell over 5% in wroclaw. may june prices fell less than 1% in krakow. you do not agree with these facts?

the scheibler project is in fact top end. yet average price there was a year ago 4500. investors bought at that price level. now at what price level are you trying to sell to new buyers - mediocre quality? at 5500-6000 pzl, right? as for the renting, those who bought in uscheiblera would be able to offer appartments for rent at better prices cause they bought cheaper - and we are talking about 550 appartments!
i think you have it wrong with renting. poles do not rent appartments from foreigners unless there is an emergency... you say that you have spoken with number of people and seen contracts, your view yet not solid enough! i would count on that to put my money into.

you try to create an euphoria because this helps your sales. well, i am sorry but i will offer my views about the real life situation at the moment in real estate in polish cities. hope people read the posts and make their due diligence before they commit to an investment. they must go independant because the sales agents will tell anything in order to take the commission...

right! well there is no good or bad agent. they are all the same....

they will tell you will double your money, your will rent it no problem, you will you will etc etc. they promise and they say blah blah blah... they will exrpess vague statements, like that many people do these and these things, and i have seen many contracts on the desk of the lawyers secretary, and so on and so forth.

will they ever point out to potential pitfalls? will they ever sweat if you have a problem renting it? will they ever care if after 10 years the building starts decaying due to lower quality of work/material? surely not. once you sign and they get the commission, forget of the them, you are all alone.

if you want to help prospective buyers you can advice them to get a quotation about a project through an agent. but do not sign anything with them. then contact directly the developer. it is as easy as that. and then buyer stands the chance to negotiate a better price. language is not a problem, with 100 plz you can hire a sworn translator for the whole day in any meetings you conduct. you can save yourself few thousands of zloty which you will need in finishing off the appartment, as they all come in black finish.

donomar,

99% of developers in Poland do not pay commission to agents such as michael.The agents are paid a finders fee by the investor.

In June the prices were readjusted by 0.4% but the overall quarterly figure is still at more than 8% growth.Just because there is a tiny blip in one month,it does not mean the overall trend has changed

I am not familiar with the Wroclaw market so i cannot comment

The situation regarding yield is more complex than you state.A number of investors would have taken out repayment mortgages as interest only mortgages have only recently become available.This means that hypathetically based on the same amount borrowed arepayment mortgage costing 1000zl per month will cost approxamately 700zl on interest only based on swiss francs. This then means that the pricing differential is minimised because of the financial situation

The majority of polish investors tend to look at the short term ie they like to reassign before completion at a profit .If those flats are then reassigned to other investors (they have been selling at over 7000zlm2) then again the situation changes

The final group are those people that payed cash.Are they really going to want to rent out their property at basement levels? They can command a premium especially to the foreign tennants whose rental may be paid by their company.

When a property is rented out via a management company the tennant would not even Know who the owner is and as long as they like and can afford it why should they care!

Why should i try to create a euphoria. I am not an agent as you are once again incorrectly assuming.I am in fact an investor myself with a number of investments in Lodz ,with a lot more to come.

I have asked you this before in a different thread ,but you did not answer.

What is your experiance of the polish property market?