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Ancient Polish History thread


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posts: 134
 
Patrycja19
  Jan 9, 08, 19:12  #91

Crow wrote:
History, unlike mathematics, is an imperfect science and can never be complete or totally impartial.

Facts are denied, distorted, ignored, forgotten. History is often written long after the denials, the distortions, the memories of events and their consequences have disappeared. When the bare facts of the past resurface like fossilized plants or prehistoric animals, the expert historian is there to draw conclusions.

Such conclusions are often incompatible with accepted traditions and beliefs, and it takes all the skill of the historian to convince the conservative scholars that their beliefs are being proved wrong.



Crow this is so true its the knife that cut the cake.

Every version of history is distorted. told the way the person seen it, and each time
it was told it became more exzaggerated,twisted differently from the account told.

and the other nations who told their side ( as much truth as it was) became distorted
also .. I agree with this wholeheartedly...

this discussion has surfaced before , but until now, its true form hasnt really been
debated. and I thank you for Pointing out what I already believed..

and Im not saying I dont believe in history, I just dont believe all the history told
is the true concrete vision that was originally recorded..thats why I dont know/
understand why so many fight over whos the winner in all these battles when
truthfully, no one wins when theirs war..

lately, Ive realised this more and more in other things.


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Crow
Edited by: Crow  Jan 10, 08, 17:21  #92

Slavic King Svatopluk I of Great Moravia


A historical representation of King Svatopluk I

The papal bull Industriae Tuae addressed to Svatopluk I

Great Moravia


Map of Great Moravia at its greatest territorial extent during the reign of Svatopluk I (871-894), superimposed on the modern borders of European states


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Great_Moravia

Great Moravia was an empire existing in Central Europe between 833 and the early 10th century..... The core territory laid on both sides of the Morava river, in present-day Slovakia and the Czech Republic, but the empire also extended into what are today parts of Hungary, Romania, Poland, Austria, Germany, Serbia, Slovenia, Croatia and Ukraine.

To say in short, Great Moravia was streched from the Morava river in Moravia/Slovakia, to the Great Morava river in Serbia and her influence reached Slavic territories from Balkan to Baltic, from Adriatic to the Black see, from that what is today Northern Italy to the Ukrainian and Belorussian steppes.

Legend of Svatopluk's twigs


Svatopluk holding three twigs

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Svatopluk_I

It says that the powerful Great Moravian king Svatopluk asked his sons to come to him before his death. He gave a twig to each of them and asked them to break it. The young noblemen could easily do it. Then he asked them to tie together three twigs and asked the sons again to break them. This task appeared to be more difficult. Thus the king demonstrated how it is necessary to be united. That only the strength of a united kingdom guarantees the country its power and prosperity.


Svatopluk I with three twigs according legend of Svatopluk's twigs and his three sons Mojmír II, Svatopluk II and Predstav

While we can`t be sure 100% in case with exact events described in this legend, we remembered Great Moravia. Scientific fact is that Great Moravia and Svatopluk I with his sons existed. Anyway, we can even today learn a lot of from both- from examination of Great Moravia, the last ancient united Slavic Kingdom and from legend about Svatopluk I and his sons. I personally, believe in legend.



After King`s death, Great Moravia was divided among the three brothers in 894 in spite of their father's warning. The country, weakened by wars with Romans and Teutons, was destroyed in 907 by a combined Teuton (German)-Hun attack.


Did you know?

...that Russian Empresses, Catherine II of Arihalt-Zerbst wasn`t of German but of Slavic origin


Catherine II of Russia

http://www.arikah.net/encyclopedia/Catherine_II_of_Russia

Early life



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FISZ
Edited by: FISZ  Jan 10, 08, 18:58  #93

Crow wrote:
The Biskupin site is a fortified settlement in Poland and, belonging to the Lausitz (Late Bronze age) and Hallstatt C (Early Iron age) cultures


It wasn't only from the bronze and iron age. On the same property there are camp remains from the Neolithic Age.

It's a great place to visit and it was interesting to learn about how they warshipped a 4 headed god "Światowid" :)




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Grzegorz_
Edited by: Grzegorz_  Jan 11, 08, 18:04  #94

Like I wrote before after Krzywousty had died in 1138, Poland was divided into five principalities: Silesia, Greater Poland, Mazovia, Sandomierz land and Kraków. The first four provinces were given to his four sons, who became independent rulers. The fifth (Kraków) was added to the senior among the Princes who, as the Grand Duke of Kraków, was the representative of the whole of Poland. This is the beggining of a period of fragmentation (rozbicie dzielnicowe).

Władysław II Wygnaniec became the first senior and also got Silesia. Mazovia was given to Bolesław IV Kędzierzawy, Greater Poland to Mieszko Stary, Ziemia Sandomierska to Henryk Sandomierski, also a widow (2nd wife of Krzywousty) got her own area - Łęczyca-Sandomierz land.



Władysław II Wygnaniec (1105-1159)



Bolesław IV Kędzierzawy (1120-1173)



Mieszko III Stary (1122-1202)



Henryk Sandomierski (1130-1166)


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Crow
Edited by: Crow  Jan 12, 08, 14:16  #95

Patrycja19 wrote:
history is distorted.

It`s because regularly winners write the history and speaking about Slavic history in general (or if you want, particularly about Polish), considering that Slavs/Poles often were in retreat, others written history for them and their children.

It is well known fact that authors from western parts of Europe (especially German scholars) used to call Indo-Europeans `Indo-Germanics`. But, due to pressure of progressive people in scientific world that `construction` is practically abandoned.

Or, another example. Today`s Germans still insist that Germanics (Germania) are ancestors (ancestral land) of today`s Germans (Germany), no matter that it is well known that Germania was region populated with autohtonous Slavs and that term Germania coming from the name of Roman provinces, Germania Inferior - Germania Superior.

Patrycja19 wrote:
this discussion has surfaced before , but until now, its true form hasnt really been
debated. and I thank you for Pointing out what I already believed..

yes, until now. I look forward to exchange my views with you and with all others who seek, who are open-minded

That`s the one of key reasons for i have come to this brotherly Polish forum

Pat, see this...

Still, students in schools throughout the world must pass examinations on theories that scientists themselves admit are unproven. Why? The answer is that a theory is accepted not on the grounds of its certitude, but on the grounds that nobody has yet disproved it. 'The best anyone can say of a theory is that it has not been disproved.' (Ferguson, 1994:26) This principle forms the basis of modern scientific knowledge. This same principle, ironically, is considered a fallacy in classical philosophy: argumentum ad ignorantium, the fallacy of argument from ignorance. An argument that says something is true because nobody has proved it false, or that something is false because nobody has proved it true, is held to be invalid according to this rule of fallacy.

Source: Suhotra Swami, Doubt and Certainty In Krishna Consciousness
http://www.iskcon.com/icj/3_2/3_2suhotraswami.html

FISZ wrote:
FISZ

Great pic... that with flag and roots in the ground. It very well describing fact that Poles are autohtonus (native) people, on their own. All Slavs should remember that are natives and should refuse that somebody impose inferiority complexes on them.

I salute you

FISZ wrote:
4 headed god "Światowid" :)

When you mentioned Svetovid :) ...

It is quite interesting to me that Grand Duke of Lithuania and King of Poland- Jogaila or Władysław II Jagiełło (b. about 1362 d. 1 June 1434) was `the last pagan ruler of medieval Lithuania.` [see on previous page]


Presumed image of Jogaila, painted c. 1475–80, Kraków, Poland

I`m interested to found out how that great man managed to preserve faith of his ancestors. How Christianity, Catholic Church tolerated him? Any comment about it? Anyone? Christianity in general, nor Orthodox, nor Catholic Churches wasn`t too much tolerant on pagans (people of old faith). On the contrary. Just, sometimes, we can found examples of religious tolerance.


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southern
  Jan 12, 08, 14:19  #96

Crow wrote:
I`m interested to found out how that great man managed to preserve faith of his ancestors. How Christianity, Catholic Church tolerated him? Any comment about it


Ask better how he treated christian priests.

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Crow
Edited by: Crow  Jan 12, 08, 14:21  #97

southern wrote:

Crow wrote:
I`m interested to found out how that great man managed to preserve faith of his ancestors. How Christianity, Catholic Church tolerated him? Any comment about it


Ask better how he treated christian priests.

How then?


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southern
  Jan 12, 08, 14:23  #98

Crow wrote:
How then?


Not very subtle for sure.Basically all churches turned to tembles for the gods of the rivers and lakes.

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Grzegorz_
  Jan 12, 08, 15:26  #99

Crow wrote:
How Christianity, Catholic Church tolerated him?


Obviously he had to convert before he became the king.


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Crow
Edited by: Crow  Jan 12, 08, 17:11  #100

Grzegorz_ wrote:

Crow wrote:
How Christianity, Catholic Church tolerated him?


Obviously he had to convert before he became the king.

Yes, on the end he accepted Christianity but in 1386 `was baptized as Władysław` (as it is said on the link). Before that he already was ruler.

Obviously, as you point, he taken Christianity to secure his status of monarch or to say using modern terminology- to become `internationally recognized`, to be `politically correct`, `to survive- in any sense` (as, if we could say it that way? But why couldn`t we?)

There are many similar examples from history.

Members of Serbian Nemanjic`s noble house (what was ancestral house of Polish Queen Jadviga) also were forced to, due to political reasons take Christianity, at first Catholicism and then Orthodoxy. Then, as compromise, they firstly received royal status with blessing of Roman Pope and then just after that from Byzantium. Anyway, that compromise didn`t save- nor them, nor Balkan Serbs in general (nor Orthodox, nor Catholic Serbs). We paid dearly rivalry between Orthodox and Catholic Churches. Then plus Islam invaded us.

Position of medieval Serbian nobility, often dictated current status (influence/strength/interests) of both- Catholic and/or Orthodox Church. Who knows, maybe Nemanic`s attempt to balance between Rome and Constantinople would be successful if Turks didn`t appeared on horizon.

Tragic Serbian history is good example for examination (test) of tolerance/intolerance between (and within) Orthodox and Catholic Churches, between (within) Christianity and Islam.

more data which would give you picture, you would found here...

CATHOLIC ENCYCLOPEDIA - Servia
http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/13732a.htm

For a time indeed the Grand Zupan Michael (1050-80) was able to maintain his independence; he even received the title of king from Pope Gregory VII. In the twelfth century the family of the Nemanyich, to whom the union of the Serbs is due, became prominent in Servian history. Urosch, who was Zupan of Rassa from about 1120, entered into friendly relations with the Hungarian king, Bela II.

Stephen I, Nemanja, who was a Catholic, maintained amicable relations with the popes in ecelesiastico-political affairs, especially with Pope Innocent III. He received the latter's legates and letters in a friendly manner and repeatedly assured the pope of his attachment. His brother Vlkan, as lord of Antivari and Cattaro, was also closely connected with the Catholic Church. Nevertheless, the Greek Orthodoxy Church grew constantly stronger in the eastern part of the country,...

After the fall of the Latin Empire the relations between the papacy and Servia grew gradually less intimate; although married to a Catholic Frenchwoman, Helena, Stephen Urosch permitted both his sons to be brought up in the Greek Orthodox religion.

CATHOLIC ENCYCLOPEDIA - Illyria
http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/07663a.htm

Ecclesiastically, the whole of Illyricum, which had first received Christianity from St. Paul the Apostle, and Titus, his disciple, was from the first under the Bishop of Rome, as the Patriarch of the West, and, after the division of the empire, formed the eastern part of the territory subject to the pope, as Patriarch of Rome, although politically a part of Byzantium.

From the end of the ninth century Eastern Illyria appears in the "Notitiae episcopatuum" as wholly within the Patriarchate of Constantinople, with which it was involved in the Great Schism.

Under Leopold I (1636-1705) the Serbs or Raizi, who had been established on Hungarian territory since 1690, were designated as the Illyrian nation; to provide for their protection against Magyar incursions a special office was created at the Court of Vienna, known as the Illyrian Court Deputation, which was abolished in 1777, and in 1791 enjoyed a brief revival as the "Illyrian Imperial Chancery."

CATHOLIC ENCYCLOPEDIA - Albania
http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/01253b.htm

While every other race in the Balkans, with the exception of the Western Serbs, called Hroats (Croats), went over to schism, the Roman Catholic faith remained secure in the fastnesses of northern Albania.

Since 1848 the Catholic Serbs, who are in large part subjects of the Austro-Hungarian Monarchy, have bee under the spiritual jurisdiction of the Bishop of Diakovo, in Slavonia. Although freedom of religion was constitutionally guaranteed by the Congress of Berlin, the position of the Catholic Church is a disadvantageous one, as the Orthodox clergy put various difficulties in the way of parochial work.



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Piorun
  Jan 12, 08, 21:47  #101

Lithuania at that time was not Christian. He became a Grand Duke of Lithuania in 1377, but the transition was not smooth. There were others who claimed the title, mainly his brothers. But the biggest fight he faced was with his uncle Kiejstutem and his sons.
In 1381 he was deposed for a short while by his uncle but regain the control and imprisoned him and his son Witold. His uncle died shortly after that but his main rival Witold escaped to the territory held by Teutonic Knights still claiming the title.

Facing the danger of being deposed by Witold with the help of Teutonic Knights, the only recourse was some kind of a union with Poland. In 1385 that union was signed. It was stipulated that He the Grand Duke of Lithuania will marry a Polish queen Jadwiga (who was a Queen of Poland since 1384). In exchange Lithuania will become catholic and will be united with Poland, but Jagiełło will regain the lands that he have lost to the Crown (Pomorze held by Teutonic Knights). In 1386 there was a baptismal, his wedding to Jadwiga and coronation of Władysław Jagiełło as King of Poland.

In one single stroke he has consolidated his power, eliminated his rivals and became stronger than ever. In 1387 the Christianization of Lithuania has begin according to the agreement (his brother Skirgielle was supervising this process) and in 1392 it was Witold.
As a ruler of a pagan state he was in a constant danger of losing his domain to the Christian Kingdom and He knew it. At the end it’s just Politics as usual.

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Patrycja19
  Jan 13, 08, 01:14  #102

Crow wrote:
Pat, see this...


Still, students in schools throughout the world must pass examinations on theories that scientists themselves admit are unproven. Why? The answer is that a theory is accepted not on the grounds of its certitude, but on the grounds that nobody has yet disproved it. 'The best anyone can say of a theory is that it has not been disproved.' (Ferguson, 1994:26) This principle forms the basis of modern scientific knowledge. This same principle, ironically, is considered a fallacy in classical philosophy: argumentum ad ignorantium, the fallacy of argument from ignorance. An argument that says something is true because nobody has proved it false, or that something is false because nobody has proved it true, is held to be invalid according to this rule of fallacy.

Source: Suhotra Swami, Doubt and Certainty In Krishna Consciousness
http://www.iskcon.com/icj/3_2/3_2suhotraswami.html


wow!! yes why should people be made to take tests of theorys unproven??

I think it should be only factual.. of course we lose alot that way to, because some
things can never be replaced once lost to wars and such. so some things that
were not theory but facts, will never again be relived in the eyes of those learning.

this is Amazing.. I am pretty excited, I want to read it tonight, but its to late.. :)
thanks :))))


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Grzegorz_
  Jan 13, 08, 02:34  #103

Crow wrote:
Before that he already was ruler.


But only the Grand Duke of Lithuania.


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Crow
  Jan 14, 08, 13:02  #104

Crow wrote:
Position of medieval Serbian nobility, often dictated current status (influence/strength/interests) of both- Catholic and/or Orthodox Church.

one technical correction... this sentence should be written this way...

Position of medieval Serbian nobility was often dictated by current position (status/influence/strength/interests) of both- Catholic and/or Orthodox Churches.


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Crow
Edited by: Crow  Jan 14, 08, 13:57  #105

Now

Discovered frozen Ice man Oetzi was probably a Slav



... and, many other interesting informations on presented links

SLOVENIAN ROOTS: WHAT GENES REVEAL

(Korenine Slovencev: Kaj razodevajo geni)
(J. Skulj (P. Eng.) The Hindu Institute of Learning, Toronto, Canada – 2004-3-30)
(Translation from Slovenian by Lillian Centa -- 8/04)
http://www.angelfire.com/country/veneti/SkuljRootsGenes.html

This hypothesis is in agreement with the results of analyses of genetic markers on the Y-chromosome, which is inherited on the father’s side. Semino et al., are of the opinion that the Y-chromosome haplogroup Eu7, is presently very frequent in Croatians and Serbs; Rootsi et al. find it almost equally frequent in Slovenians at 38%, with the Slovenians having a higher percentage of the older lineages particularly M170 and M253 mutations comprising the haplogroup. This haplogroup is to have originated in the territory of Epi-Gravettian culture in the territory of present-day Austria, the Czech Republic and northern Balkans 20,000 to 25,000 years ago in the descendants of people who came from the Near East. Another genetic group, Eu19, which is the most frequent in Slavs, then in northern India, and in Pakistan, probably originated in the ice age refuge in the Ukraine and spread out after the ice age (SO), (RZ), (Y), (RO).

MtDNA haplogroup K was very frequent in 4,000 to 5,000 year old Basque skeletons, at 20%. This haplogroup K is now present in Swedes at 16%; in Slovenians with 4%. This genetic marker is also carried by the 5,300 year old mummy Oetzi – the man from the glacier. Thus, Slovenians or Slavs cannot be excluded when attempting to determine to what language group Oetzi belonged. Perhaps, with time, it may be possible to get Y-chromosome data, which would enable the researchers to determine to what present-day language family he would belong.

Czech American DNA Study: Some Early Results
by Leo Baca
http://www.txczgs.org/Genetic.html

A look at this preliminary data shows that Czech Americans closely resemble the distribution of Europeans for haplogroups H, X, T, and V. There are significant differences in haplogroups U, J, and K. Since haplogroup J is a genetic echo of the Neolithic people who brought agriculture to Europe, this would seem to indicate that Czech Americans are nearly entirely descended(maternally) from the Paleolithic hunters/gatherers that originally settled Europe. One unanticipated result concerned haplogroup K. We have found that three Czech Texans have exactly the same mtDNA as the "Iceman". This is the frozen mummy found on the border of Austria and Italy. He is estimated to have lived over 5000 years ago.

A comparison between a relatively small Y chromosome study from the Czech Republic with our Czech American study shows some significant differences. Haplogroup R1b is an indicator of Celtic or proto-Celtic "deep ancestry".

Iceman's final meal



Monday, 16 September, 2002, 21:31 GMT 22:31 UK
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/sci/tech/2262615.stm

Dr Rollo added: "We were very impressed by the quality of the meals he had. The diet of people living at this time included rabbit, rats, squirrel - all sorts of things. But the iceman, in his last two meals, had red deer and ibex meat. It was a real medieval banquet!"


imagine...

Dozens of women want Bronze Age hunter's babies

Ananova ^ | 4/24/03
Posted on 04/25/2003 10:35:13 AM PDT by SteveH
http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-news/900292/posts

Dozens of women have asked to be made pregnant by a prehistoric iceman who died 5,000 years ago.

Alex Susanna, director of the Bozen Museum where his body is exhibited, says requests have been received by many women wanting to have Otzi's babies.

He told Austrian broadcasting company ORF that all of the requests had been turned down, not least because Otzi's penis had decayed away.




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osiol
  Jan 14, 08, 14:52  #106

Interesting, but I think things become problematic when jumping to conclusions from linking linguistic groups with genetically-determined groups. For example, the Celts the Ancient Greeks spoke of - it seems difficult to link these people with the populations of todays Celtic-speaking areas. It can be seen that culture (including language) spreads from group to group far more than populations move.


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Patrycja19
  Jan 15, 08, 00:36  #107

Crow wrote:
Dozens of women have asked to be made pregnant by a prehistoric iceman who died 5,000 years ago.


Alex Susanna, director of the Bozen Museum where his body is exhibited, says requests have been received by many women wanting to have Otzi's babies.

He told Austrian broadcasting company ORF that all of the requests had been turned down, not least because Otzi's penis had decayed


lol... this is the first i have heard of this .. lol

well hed be one lucky guy , no child support would be ordered for the absent parent
because he is 5000 years old... lol


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Crow
  Jan 16, 08, 13:09  #108

Admin please,

Is it possible to you to make workable (one click) all links in this thread (some are placed on copy paste principle)? If not, never mind :)


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Crow
Edited by: Crow  Mar 22, 08, 12:10  #109

on Sarmatian dilemmas...


The Name SLAV*
B. Philip Lozinski (Essays in Russian History, Archon Books, 1964)
http://members.tripod.com/~Groznijat/fadlan/lozinski.html

One of the Slavic groups, the Poles, called themselves Sarmatians; this name was recorded very early in Western Medieval chronicles [27], which lends credence to the traditions recorded in Polish chronicles edited at the waning of the Middle Ages, according to which they were in touch with the Iranians. [28] In Antiquity the Sarmatians, as is well known, were the Alans. [29] The meaning of the name "Sarmata" in Iranian is the "council." [30] It refers not to the nationality or language, but to the social organization of the Alans, ruled by a supreme council, appointing the king. [31] The role of the council in early Slavic history is well known, especially among the Western Slavs. Thus the social, or political, organization of the Iranian Alans and Polish Slavs offers evidence of their affiliation. Both groups used the Iranian word for "council" derived from the type of their ruling body. They must have been in very close proximity to affect such borrowings and exchange of influences. These were of such important nature, defining the whole structure of the society, that we are obliged to start thinking in terms of direct intermingling of population groups.

History of Ukrainian nationality

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_Ukranian_nationality

Pre-History

During the Iron Age, numerous tribes settled on the modern-day territory of Ukraine. In the first millennium BC, a tribe of people who called themselves Cimmerians made their way from Thrace and occupied the land around the Dnieper. On the Black Sea coast, the Greeks founded numerous colonies, such as Yalta. Around 700 BC, another group of people settled on the Ukrainian steppes: the Scythians, a semi-nomadic people from Persia. At the turn of the 4th century BC, a series of Nomadic tribes succeeded each other as the dominant force on the steppes, many of who were Persian in origin. First were the Sarmatians, expert warriors and herders who were known to fight on horseback.

The Slavic tribes that constitute Belarussians were the Krivichians and Drehovichians, while they mixed with Baltic tribes. The direct Slavic ancestors of Russia are the Viatychians and Slovenians, and they mixed with the Finno-Urgric tribes of the north. Ukrainians are an amalgam of Polianians, Volhynians, with strong Iranian and Ural-Altai influence: namely, the Scythians, Sarmations, and Khazars.



few links for articles by Sergei V. Rjabchikov [for those who seek]

ON SCYTHIAN AND SARMATIAN RECORDS WRITTEN BY GREEK LETTERS
http://public.kubsu.ru/~usr02898/sl39.htm

ON THE SYMBOLISM OF SARMATIAN DAGGERS AND SWORDS
http://public.kubsu.ru/~usr02898/sl33.htm

ON THE SARMATIAN FEAST KOLYADA
http://public.kubsu.ru/~usr02898/sl40.htm

THE SCYTHIAN RECORDS ON COINS OF THE SCYTHIAN KING SKILUR
http://public.kubsu.ru/~usr02898/sl38.htm

THE SCYTHIAN/SARMATIAN INFLUENCE ON THE SLAVONIC MYTHOLOGY AND DECORATIVE ART
http://public.kubsu.ru/~usr02898/sl37.htm


European Journal of Human Genetics (2004) 12, 495–504. doi:10.1038/sj.ejhg.5201160 Published online 11 February 2004

Admixture, migrations, and dispersals in Central Asia: evidence from maternal DNA lineages

David Comas, Stéphanie Plaza, R Spencer Wells, Nadira Yuldaseva, Oscar Lao, Francesc Calafell and Jaume Bertranpetit

http://www.nature.com/ejhg/journal/v12/n6/full/5201160a.html

Classical Greek and Chinese historic records cite the Scythians and Sarmatians, Indo-European-speaking people described as having European morphological traits, as the first inhabitants occupying the region.



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Filios1
  Mar 22, 08, 12:14  #110

Crow wrote:
Dozens of women have asked to be made pregnant by a prehistoric iceman who died 5,000 years ago.


Alex Susanna, director of the Bozen Museum where his body is exhibited, says requests have been received by many women wanting to have Otzi's babies.

He told Austrian broadcasting company ORF that all of the requests had been turned down, not least because Otzi's penis had decayed away.


Good lord. Is society really that dim to realize that a man who has been dead for 5000 years, and with decayed genitals, cannot bear anymore young?


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Crow
  Mar 22, 08, 16:01  #111

Filios1 wrote:
Is society really that dim

moral questions, human rights activists and low already dictate different doscussions among experts, in case with achevements of modern genetics

we can only imagine questions which diserves answers, if ideas like that mentioned above, become reality


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celinski
  Mar 24, 08, 10:48  #112

I thought I was educated on the "Holocaust", that is until I took
this 40 question test. Put it this way, I won't tell you my score and
you don't have to tell me yours.

Have fun, it is interesting. Carol

Holocausts of Communism Test
by Bryan Caplan

I dedicate this
to all those who did not live
to tell it.
And may they please forgive me
for not having seen it all
nor rememberered it all,
for not having divined all of it.
--Alexsander Solzhenitsyn, The Gulag Archipelago

bcaplan.com/cgi-bin/museum1.cgi


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Bylany1
  Mar 24, 08, 20:38  #113

Dear Sir,

I think that Biskupin, along with other Lusatian lake-forts in Znin region (e.g. Sobiejuchy), continues into Hallstatt D, after Bukowski to Ostoja-Zagorski. I remember that we found quite a lot of Hallstatt D material with the destruction of the parenthetical site some years ago.

BMW Albert

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Bylany1
  Mar 25, 08, 13:14  #114

Dear Sirs,

I have made several pollen studies for my U. Durham Ph.D. in the Czech Republic and surrounding regions (including at the Neolthic site at Bylany and my main site at Vransky potok [Crow Creek!] in Bohemia). It seems universal (cf. Petr Pokorny and Vojen Lozek) that the major human impacts first begin in the Late (Urnfield) Bronze Age (e.g. Lusatian and Knoviz Cultures) in Central Europe (and somewhat earlier in the Balkans into the NW Carpathian Basin with Madarovce and Vetrov Cultures). The environmental data indicate the first establishment of major agriculture populations (sufficient to promote major deforestation) in Central Europe after 1500 BC (after 2000 BDC in Balkans north of Greece). Settlement data also point to major population increase at this time. It is perhaps worth noting then that demographic pre-conditions for the emergence of stable language families might also emerge at this time. Note also a certain geographic continuity which may be seen between in th extent Lusatian, Przeworsk (with some La Tene and Scythian penetrations prior to) and Pragus Typus (accepted Early Slav) pottery cultures which also correlate with Slavic place-names from East Germany to North Moravia. Some Baltic peoples may also be included in the above groupings (on the Prussian side). I suspect that one can really start speaking of distinctive proto-Balto-Slavs (becomming more distinctive from each other through time) after this threshold at about 3500 years ago (there may be glotto-chronology also to support this).

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Crow
Edited by: Crow  Apr 4, 08, 15:54  #115

Bylany1:
It seems universal (cf. Petr Pokorny and Vojen Lozek) that the major human impacts first begin in the Late (Urnfield) Bronze Age (e.g. Lusatian and Knoviz Cultures) in Central Europe (and somewhat earlier in the Balkans into the NW Carpathian Basin with Madarovce and Vetrov Cultures). The environmental data indicate the first establishment of major agriculture populations (sufficient to promote major deforestation) in Central Europe after 1500 BC (after 2000 BDC in Balkans north of Greece).

see this...

CATHOLIC ENCYCLOPEDIA

The Slavs
http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/14042a.htm

Consequently if we were to follow strictly the written historical authorities, of which a number are very trustworthy, we would be obliged to support the theory that the original home of the Slavs is in the countries along the Danube and on the Adriatic coast.



links for articles by Sergei V. Rjabchikov...

MERMAIDS FROM SCYTHIA
http://public.kubsu.ru/~usr02898/sl42.htm

HE-GOATS NEAR THE SUN/WORLD TREE: THE SCYTHIAN AND SLAVONIC BELIEFS
http://public.kubsu.ru/~usr02898/sl41.htm

ON AN EPITHET *AF/*AV OF SCYTHIAN AND SARMATIAN DEITIES
http://public.kubsu.ru/~usr02898/sl44.htm

ON A KHAZARIAN RECORD PERFORMED BY SLAVONIC LETTERS
http://public.kubsu.ru/~usr02898/sl56.htm

ON SOME NAMES OF THE SCYTHIANS, SARMATIANS AND MEOTIANS
http://public.kubsu.ru/~usr02898/sl57.htm


ON THE SCYTHIAN/SARMATIAN SYMBOL 'NET'
by Sergei V. Rjabchikov
http://public.kubsu.ru/~usr02898/sl49.htm

Let us consider a part of the wall-painting of a Bosporan crypt (the ancient town Panticapeum; Kerch, the Ukraine) (Rostovtzeff 1913: table XCVII; 1914: 412-6), see figure 1.


Figure 1.

It is a pattern of the Sarmatian culture. The drawing of an eagle is surrounded by two pairs of symbols: a fragment of a net included in a rectangle and a cross with four dots included in a circle. I believe that the eagle is a symbol of the god-thunderer (Rjabchikov 2002: 33, 155). A net is the symbol of the water, and the cross, the number four and the round are solar symbols (Rjabchikov 2002: 6ff). So here the ideas "water; rain" and "fire; the sun; lightning" are presented.

Let us examine an ornament on a Scythian scoop from the Grigorovskoe ancient settlement (the Ukraine) (Galanina, Domansky and Smirnova 1981: 32-3, photo [12a]). Here I distinguish a wavy sign ('water') surrounded by representations of fragments of a net. Apparently, all the symbols are relevant to the water.

In addition, let us examine a Sarmatian jug from the ancient town Tanais (the Rostov-on-Don region, Russia) (Arsenieva, Bezuglov and Tolochko 2001: 84, Nr 8, table 6 [62]). Here I distinguish the representation of a net as well. I think that it is the symbol of the water.



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Crow
Edited by: Crow  Apr 11, 08, 07:38  #116

to revive a little this thread, suitable picture... :)

GLORIA, EXCELSIOR, SACRUM, IMPERIUM, POLONICUM




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tsmith
  Apr 11, 08, 09:54  #117

Years ago I received a prayer card w/ a small bag attached that has soil in it. On the card it reads: Ziemia Meczenska Pratulina. I believe it is the soil where a religiuos battle was fought and many Polish people died. However, that is all that I can rememer. The front of the card shows people holding up a cross. It looks to be from centuries ago. Any information would be most appreciated. Thanks!

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Bylany1
  Apr 13, 08, 15:00  #118

Dear Sir,

I suspect that by the time we reach a time we can speak of Slavs in the strict sense (maybe in the Bronze Age), the Slavs actually inhabit the Lusatian Culture zone in broad terms, actually a bit north of Danubia, corresponding to E. Germany, Poland and the northern rim of Bohemia, Moravia, and Slovakia.

BMW Albert

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Crow
Edited by: Crow  Apr 13, 08, 16:01  #119

ORDER OF THE DRAGON

There is one story for you - Polish and Slavic ladies and gentlemen (and other members and guests of Polishforums.com), based on old and true chronicles. Ancient Slavic culture was very advanced and greatly affected traditions and achievements of complete Western world. One of those achievements, based on old Slavic heritage is Order of the Dragon- mighty protector of Christianity, Slavs and Europeans. This Earth didn’t seen Sacred Order which was glorious as this one. There wasn’t Sacred Order with members famous and controversial as members of this Order. All were willing to die for honor and given word. Many of them die. Our Lord Jesus Christ and St. Vitus were witnesses. Order effectively existed about 300 years, and was revived later. Extracted from ancient Sarmatian (Proto Slavic/Slavic) heritage, in middle age re-born as Serbian, Order evolved into Slavic Order after call for brotherly support, which was sent from Serbian nobility because of Ottoman threat. Soon after, Order becomes European. Order was always open for Orthodox, Catholics and Protestants. It seams that divisions inside of Christian world didn’t affect this Order.

It is said that famous Polish King Jan Sobieski was one of the most devoted members of this Order. Great King did whatever he could to support Serbians and all Balkan Slavs who faced with Turkish invasion. May eternal soul of His Majesty Jan Sobieski, rest in peace.

FROM THE CHAOS

THERE IS ORDER.

FROM THE ORDER

THERE IS THE DRAGON.

WITH THE DRAGON

THERE IS VICTORY.

HAIL DRAGON! HAIL VICTORY!


Serbian Nobleman, true Sarmatian- Milos Obilic – the original founder of the Dragon Order

The famous Polish King, Jan Sobieski, the architect behind the great Turkish defeat at the gates of Vienna, also served as Grand Master between 1657 and 1696. As Hungary and Transylvania crumbled beneath the weight of the Turkish onslaught, many members of the Dragon Order fell in battle and the orientation of the surviving knights drifted further eastward. With the death of Jan Sobieski, leadership passed to Prince Dmitri Cantemir, the Despot of Moldavia, who was valiantly engaged in a conflict to stave off the Turks. Dmitiri rallied the last of the loyal Dragon knights but was ultimately defeated by the Turks and ousted from his principality. The circle of the Order had dwindled significantly and, once Cantemir died without issue, the title of Grand Master passed to Dmitri’s suzerain, Peter the Great of Russia.

Source:

IMPERIAL SOVEREIGN TIBERIAN DOBRYNIAN HOUSE OF ROME BYZANTIUM AND RUSSIA
http://www.imperialclub.net/orderofthedragon.htm



one more fragment from text:

The original Order, called the Sacred Order of the Dragon of Saint George, was created by Milos Obilic, the first Serbian to be dubbed a knight in the feudal tradition. Obilic created his order with twelve other knights and the society had a single purpose at its center: The assassination of the Ottoman Sultan, Murad I. Milos Obilic achieved the aim of his organization during the disastrous battle of Kosovo Polje (June 15th, 1389), when he was able to force himself into Murad’s tent and stab the Sultan to death. All the original member of the Dragon Order fell on the field of Kosovo except for one, who survived to become the military tutor of the Serbian Prince, Stefan Lazarevic.


When Christianity clashed with Islam - Kosovo Battle, Jun 28, 1389, St. Vitus day (Sv. Vid/Vidovdan- on Serbian)

From the bottom of the hell, via Anatolia, Evil Serpent of Ottoman hordes come to swallow Serbian Empire and whole Europe then. As, respond – Dragon from the oldest Slavic traditions was needed once again. Summoned by Serbian Nobleman Voivode of Knights Miloš Obilić - dragon came. Price was life.



to be continued...


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isthatu2
  Apr 13, 08, 16:04  #120

Crow,hand on heart,I thank you for your fascinating contributions in this thread...see,we really are all brothers/brates.:) Being that it seems Poles are part slav part viking part celt and Brits are part celt part viking...lets all have manly bear hugs and make up? Right,who can we all gang up against?;)


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