Apartment purchase in Poland

Sorry, it is in polish but I am sure that buyer doesn't pay 2% when he buys new property from developer.



"Nabywając mieszkanie na rynku pierwotnym (od developera) nie płacimy podatku od czynności cywilnoprawnych, co wynika z art. 2 pkt. 4 ustawy o podatku od czynności cywilnoprawnych na mocy którego nie podlegają podatkowi: czynności cywilnoprawne, jeżeli przynajmniej jedna ze stron z tytułu dokonania tej czynności na podstawie odrębnych przepisów jest opodatkowana podatkiem od towarów i usług lub jest zwolniona od tego podatku."

The fee mentioned by the notary was for his fee only. It didn't take into account other costs which might or might not occur. This is part of the problem. the notary office would only discuss 'extras' after an appointment at his office.
So can we say that the stamp on the document, by a notary, costs from 3% down to 1%

Did you check this website?

money.pl/banki/kalkulatory/koszty

I think that notary fee is quite restricted and depends on value of property.

Are you sure that they can differ from 1-3 % ?

i thought that they have special price list for service and it is the same in every notary office.

Iwona,

I can only tell you what was said on the phone. I don't dispute your information.

We really need someone in the business to post some answers.

For those who can make sense, this was calculated for me today by my lawyer on the purchase of a 250Kzl property:

Oblicz dla: mieszkanie hipoteczne, dom, dzialka

Zakupione ne: rynek w torny

Wartosc: 250000 zl

Taska notarialne (maksymalnie) 1960

Podatek VAT od tasky notaralnej 431, 20

Podatek od czynnosci cywilnoprawych 5000

Wniosek o wpis do ksiegi wieczystej 200

Posrednik 0% 0,00

Podatek VAT od uslugi posrenictwa 0,00

Oplaty dodatkowe 0 0,00

RAZEM OPLATY: 7591, 20 zl

All above figures are PLN

Guys......many thanks for all the research since (I was on a break for a few days!)....we are nailing down the actual "breakdown" costs of buying in Poland, more than useful...A*...so far!

Now if we could, get some one to go through their experience... as per the first post on the thread, that would be even better, then if we got a variety of experiences listed, covering new builds/off plan buying, house purchases and apartment purchases ( am leaving out land/business purchases for the moment as these seem even more complex!), so we would have a full "portfolio" of buying experiences, what do you all think?

Thanks again, Frank

Just stole this from the property tax situation 1st jan 2007 thread (attributed to Arrrgh!).....wholly true or anyone comment.......!

"All Polish property purchased after Jan 1, 2007 will be subject to a sort of Capital Gains Tax. I think the rate is 19%. This means, after subtracting all your costs - such as putting a new roof on the property, or tiles in the bathroom (providing these are all properly VAT receipted) - you will have to pay 19% on your profit when selling the property. "

This tax increase is correct Frank but it works out less/better in my understanding - as far as I can work out, you pay 10% on sale price at present which works out more/worse than 19% on you net profit... at least this is what has been explained to me...

Overview
Nothing happens quickly here and ask 10 people the same question and you get 10 different answers... I have a Polish partner who deals with most of the tricky stuff but I am also using English speaking lawyers etc where possible.

The sort of people I am dealing with include estate agents, private sellers, lawyers, notaries, people who know people and have contacts etc etc. Would I do it again... of course, but it's all a learning experience...

Where you bought
My first purchase was an off plan apartment in Ruzcjai Krakow oposite the university, Motorola office and the new library. It was a shared deal where together we bought 4 apartments in a block and have divided them to make 6 of varying size. We agreed the SQM price a year ago... the building has yet to start... some complications with number of parking spaces required under new legislation... my SQM rate has doubled as far as I understand. This has all been done via Churchill Properties based in the UK

My other purchases - which have still to be finalised - are in and around the Troijmiasto. I am in the process of buying an attic in Wreszcz for conversion which is done through people who have contacts; a house in Osowa which is a private deal (and is being bought in my partner's name to avoid all the permit complications etc) and hope to buy a flat in Sopot over the next few days.

Iam buying in the Troijmiasto as it is a city which I know and have friends in etc... I also think the area is prime for return on investment... and its loads of fun here

Price you paid - for the property, agents, solicitors, other parties

Krakow flat 49sqm @ 3500 zl

Wrzeszcz attic 300sqm @ 670 zl

Osowo house 300sqm @ 850 zl

Sopot flat 100sqm @ 4500 zl

I havent incured all costs at this stage and it is very difficult to get even a rough estimate of what final costs will be... the attic for example includes *finders fee*...

Who did you buy from
I am in the process of buying via property developer, estate agent, private vendor and a residential community... there are different advantages/disadvantages for all...

Time scale
Did anyone ever work out how long the piece of string was...

What to look out for
To get the deals you really need, IMHO, to know the market and be on the ground... some of the *hotter* properties are moving very quickly and insider information is needed to really get the best deals...

It obviously helps if you have someone to work with who knows the ropes and can speak Polish - phoning a private seller is a no-goer if you dont speak the lingo. Estate agents make you sign a contract before you view saying that you would bypass them and go straignt to the vendor to do your deal. Surveys are not the norm as far as I can tell and I have had ifficulty getting this done at short notice...

as things progress I will keep you updated...

Jasiu...........quality stuff....thanks for your time, input and clarity..........bar the string bit....lol

Just one or two queries....bear with me...and am sure a few more guys!

This per sq metre, is for all on the list?....."Krakow flat 49sqm @ 3500 zl" = 171500zl?..the others just multiple up?

Just trying to get a handle on additional costs etc.......whether to budget for 3-5% or more like 6-9%?....your thoughts?

In your opinion, the net/adverts via the net and estate agents, not anywhere as good value wise etc compared to word on the ground/local knowledge?

yeah... the prices are all multiples of sq metres... what I am purchasing at, not the final conversion costs etc, except the attic which I hope will include most of the costs... this is where the profits are if you can get hold of them...

i would calculate additional costs etc at probably 6-10% but it is so hard to tell what the final figure will be... I am slowly getting a grip on costs...

I think you will find the bargains on the ground - a number of private vendors also advertise via agents etc... who then add on their fee... but the bargains seem to be going really quickly... i am guessing there is a lot of insider knowledge/back handers going on that i am not party to... yet...

Ok, thanx for that, as you said you'd keep us up-to-date........great!

gazumped

So its a Polish thing too.........agreed price, about to sign.....then out of no-where a new bidder?

A real one?

What is the market like at the minute, what are estate agents saying, word in the press?

yeah - had made lawyers appointment to draw up contracts with vendor - phoned to check she could make it ok - she told me she had sold to someone else... nice of her to phone me earlier... so i burnt her house down...

good buys go before you can pick up the phone to make an appointment... its what i meant about insider information in an earlier thread...

not so good buys can sit and drag...

obviously that bit about burning the house down was a joke...

Yeah...it may have been, but you sound ...how shall I say, quite pissed off!!!...

Did she say how much more she sold it for, or was it a "too good to be true" bargain in the first place?

So Jasiu...effectively you are saying its all word of mouth or how do you get into the inner circle?

Frank - I am over here to invest in property for a fast return... renovate and flog etc... this house was a different matter... i wanted it for myself... lake side garden, downstairs appartment, attic for conversion, 20 mins to the airport, 20 mins to the centre, 20 mins to the beach, next door to my friends.... sniff...

it wasnt *too good to be true*... it needed a lot of work doing to it and was a longterm project... she had had good offers but i said i would pay cash quickly and she accepted verbally... i said fine, let me do a quick survey... she said no probs but then accpected another offer... oh well...

is it all word of mouth...? yes and no... you will see bargains in the paper and on the internet but they go so quickly that sometimes they are gone before you phone up... the inner circle comes through developing contacts who will give you the nod before places get on the market...

I think that krakow is getting crazy- my friend who is civil engineer and works for building company says that in Krakow some developers sell flats for 2009!!!!

Guys, one of the main reasons to buy soon is due to the current lack of pressure on housing stock, ie a significant number of people who may have wanted to buy or rent have left the country....temporarily.....so now is the time to move when the market is mostly, ticking over, ready to take off when the emigrants begin to return in 1-2 yrs time....mark my words!

Frank,

That's not the way it is. Iwona is right when she is talking about the market. People here, for the past few years, have been buying flats before they are built and when they get the keys they have been selling them on for huge profit.

Also, here in Wroclaw we have up to 100,000 students and where possible parents are buying property for them.

Wroclaw, I did say mostly, I am sure there are hot spots, select cities, towns districts and then places in certain cities etc ( and yes, new housing stock, would seem much more attractive), but other areas must be in the doldrums, 1-2 million people cannot have left the country , even temporarliy for it not to have impacted....or was there always a housing/flat shortage?

Apols for my overseas lack of grasp on the local market place.........for the moment......lol.............decision....is almost made!

Frank,

I would say that small flats move quickly. Houses would move slower.

The best place to find a bargain is in the countryside. But village life is not the same as in the UK. If you buy in the country it will be difficult to make a quick sale because your client will be considering communitations to the city.

That said. Most married people here are looking for new property, usually houses, about 30km from the city centre. That's where the new higher quality housing is.

When I was in the building game many years ago the company I worked for would build a housing estate and then people would come and look and then buy. That doesn't happen here. Most houses are built to order by small to medium sized building companies.

Yes, judging by Jasius post, there does appear to be an inner track/circle, where its best to try and garner info from, but am not sure how that can be done!

But as per previous posts, am interested in the centre of town locations...we will see!

Frank,

Have you found any web-sites with property in Wroclaw.

Wroclaw, is this a trick question or are you checking if I've come of age vis a vis the seriousness of my quest.......lol.....hold on, will check my url listings.....

homesales.pl/search.php?id=2

mamdom.com/searchpows.php?selllet=sprzedam&wojcode=dolnos&t yp=mieszkania&u_usern=&u_userp

oferty.net/mieszkania/]http://oferty.net/mieszkania

mls.com.pl/mieszk_en.html]http://www.mls.com.pl/mieszk_en.html

allegro.pl/20782_nieruchomosci.html]http://allegro.pl/20782_nieruchomo sci.html

krn.pl/szukaj_nieruchomosci.php?ireg=1&am=Wroc%B3aw&akc=1&r yn=2&obi=1&pll=&plh=

anonse.pl/nieruchomosci/sprzedaz/mieszkania?brak

and thats about it, some are in Polish, which means I didn't fully understand how to access the information, let me know if they are useful or how best to proceed!

I meant: have you found any 'good' web-sites. I know you have addresses because some of them are posted on this thread.

Not a trick. Just me not thinking.

Lol..........no accusations of your tricking me W., just pulling your leg!

Those are all I have, sorry, any other thoughts?

Do you need a translation for the requirements section ?

If so I'll get it for you tomorrow.

Well, as per our e-mails, more inclined to go with local knowledge, as we talk/type/post, am firming up dates mid next month.

But anything you think is of use let me know, thanx, Frank

Just had this newsletter delivered to my inbox.......all correct guys?...........see section copied below....;

What Are The Standard Legal Costs When Buying Property?

You must use a licensed notary to conduct all contract agreements, signed in the form of notary public acts. A notary charges roughly 2% and it is worth noting that fees are capped at a designated level, so there is a threshold.

The notary publics will inspect the contracts and will conclude that the contracts to be signed conform to the Law. Foreigners are advised to hire a lawyer to represent them as notaries are merely acting as intermediaries between the two parties.

Who pays for the legal fees?

The good thing is that the buyer usually has the right to pick the notary, but this also means that the buyer should cover the fees. This should come as a relief more than anything as you’d be the one putting money down. The standard costs of real estate transfers are following:

- notary public fees
- costs of registering the legal title transfer in the perpetual book
- costs of registering eventual mortgage in the perpetual book

These costs are capped, but we cannot put an exact figure on these as it depends on the value of the property being purchased.