My personal (American) view on Poland

Quoting: ladystardust

I see at least a couple of solutions:
- less changes in the government (well, don't we have a brand new minister every time we turn on the telly?)
- NO extra / early elections
- END to long debates about the former UB and SB workers and NO money put in new and new again policies concerned with that
- NO money for Włoszczowa train station-type projects
- NO money for heated pavement in front of His Majesty the President palace

jaggar	May 11, 07, 04:31 / #
I am an American and have been in Poland now for 2 years I have talked to many people during this time and find that for the most part they are extraordinary people that will do anything to help you and I really love the people. But on the other hand I don't understand the government they charge outrageous taxes and yet they do nothing to improve health care or anything for the teachers. I teach conversational English because most polish people know English but they will not speak it. My gf is Polish she is a German and English teacher she works in a high school teaching German and a private school teaching English. My son in the states works at McDonald's and makes more then she does to me this is a disgrace to the values that a country places on their teachers and the doctors are treated just as bad. Everyone knows this but no one seems to do anything to help this situation. My girlfriend's aunt needed open heart surgery and she had to wait three months for it. To me the schools look like prisons and the hospitals are not any better the country needs to improve this situation desperately.

Grzegorz_Threads: 81 Posts: 6,204 Joined: Nov 16, 06	May 11, 07, 05:00 / #
Quoting: jaggar My son in the states works at McDonald's and makes more then she does WTF ? And somebody working at McDonald's in Poland make more than teachers in let's say Nigeria. One has to be not very brainny to not understand the reason.

PawelThreads: 4 Posts: 145 Joined: Jan 5, 07	May 11, 07, 05:23 / #
Quoting: Grzegorz_ And somebody working at McDonald's in Poland make more than teachers in let's say Nigeria. One has to be not very brainny to not understand the reason. Missing the point..

krysiaThreads: 26 Posts: 3,604 Joined: Aug 10, 06	Edited by: krysia May 11, 07, 05:24 / #
Quoting: jaggar and the hospitals are not any better I've been in hospitals a lot in the US. It's like my second home. (Haha). The doctors and nurses really care for you. In Poland they will too if you pay them more money......:)

PawelThreads: 4 Posts: 145 Joined: Jan 5, 07	Edited by: Moderator May 11, 07, 05:28 / #
Quoting: jaggar To me the schools look like prisons and the hospitals are not any better the country needs to improve this situation desperately Thats the point,I totally agrree with jaggar it is dissapointing to see the hospitals and schools like that.. This is what our children will live with and there future.The goverment or who ever needs to attend to the issue soon. Quoting: krysia In Poland they will too if you pay them more money......:) Iam sure the polish nurses care for the people the same as in US. Weres all the taxes going why dont they pay more money to nurses and teachers arent those jobs the most important for the futer of poland..

sparrowThreads: 4 Posts: 307 Joined: Apr 24, 07	May 11, 07, 06:42 / #
Quoting: jaggar My son in the states works at McDonald's and makes more then she does Economics 101: Living in the states is more expensive than living in Poland. If everything would be dead cheap & everyone would make wads the economy crumbles.

Grzegorz_Threads: 81 Posts: 6,204 Joined: Nov 16, 06	May 11, 07, 06:54 / #
Quoting: Pawel Missing the point.. Wages, especially in a public sector are obviously directly correlated with the level of general economical development of a country, so complaining that in Poland they are not on American level is rather idiotic.

jaggar	May 11, 07, 07:00 / #
You really need to understand the cost of living is not that much more and it sure doesn't make up for the difference in pay I am talking about someone who hasn't finished school and someone who has their masters degree in education so if you want to be realistic you really need to understand the differences. But I always thought the same before I came here as you and my girlfriend thought the same too until she compared the price of everything then she realized what I was trying to explain to her. The fact is more people need to understand this fact so that Poland will start to think realistically education and health care is very important and they should keep those people happy or everything will fall apart and I really don't want to see that happen they struggled so hard to come this far. I know so many teachers and a few doctors and when they can make more money regardless of their patriotism to their country they will not stay.

Grzegorz_Threads: 81 Posts: 6,204 Joined: Nov 16, 06	May 11, 07, 07:06 / #
Quoting: jaggar education and health care is very important and they should keep those people happy And police and the army and fire fighters and border guards and judges and public administration workers and... are also important, but we simply don't have enough money to pay them well. Is It so hard to understand ?

ladystardustThreads: 1 Posts: 84 Joined: May 7, 07	May 11, 07, 07:39 / #
Quoting: Grzegorz_ And police and the army and fire fighters and border guards and judges and public administration workers and... are also important, but we simply don't have enough money to pay them well. Is It so hard to understand ? Well, I think you grasped a part of the truth, but there is also something like "distribution of goods" (how very Marks and Engels ;). I used to be a teacher myself and that's a shame that I was actually earning LESS than a Polish McDonald's worker. Some jobs are paid ridiculously well - I just compare my currect position with my boss', and he doesn't do much more - I would even say he does less - to get three times as much as I do. I think there is just a very feeble and comparatively small middle-class here: people are either barely making a living or earn so much that they can afford 1-million-PLN apartment in Warsaw. Another thing - even more important here I think - is the total lack of respect towards teachers and - more commonly - doctors. That's the real shame...

ladystardustThreads: 1 Posts: 84 Joined: May 7, 07	May 13, 07, 05:42 / #
Quoting: Grzegorz_ Quoting: ladystardust a university asisstant What's this ? This is a MA holder, who works at the university while getting his/her PhDs. This requires having normal classes at the uni as well as being available for students for help apart from normal classes. And of course this requires a higher level of education and much more researching for the job, as you don't teach kids what's 2+2, but students about more complicated issues :) Quoting: Grzegorz_ Check how much directors of hospitals or "ordynatorzy" make. My friend's mother is "lekarz rodzinny" and makes 5-6 thousand a month and doesn't work really hard. Check out how many directors are there at a regular hospital, and how many "normal" doctors and how much they get ;) Quoting: Grzegorz_ These things would save enough money to buy a beer for every Pole about once a year. And absorbtions of European funds grew within last year from one of to worst to one of the best in EU. I don't think that the money saved would be nothing - on the contrary, if all that money was put into education or health care, everyone would be much happier. Plus you forget about taxes - you would not say that they are small. I am only at the beginning of my career, so don't earn very much, but already pay 1500 PLN in taxes every month! ANd I don't use public health care, as my company gave me a health care plan in a private practice. It's similar for my friends and my parents - comapnies do that now on an everyday basis. So please explain: if so many people pay and not use, the conditions at hospitals should be so much better? When my friend got to hospital last year (accident), he didn't get toilet paper. He didn't get spoon to eat his pitiful hospital dinner with. He had to pay for TV. This is beyond imagination.

miranda	May 13, 07, 07:08 / #
Quoting: ladystardust This is a MA holder, who works at the university while getting his/her PhDs. This requires having normal classes at the uni as well as being available for students for help apart from normal classes. And of course this requires a higher level of education and much more researching for the job, as you don't teach kids what's 2+2, but students about more complicated issues :) that's the case here in Canada too. It's called TA - Teaching Assistant and those people are underpaid as well, which I don't agree with, but that's the academic career ladder one has to climb:)

jaggar	May 11, 07, 07:42 / #
So you are saying let them go to school here and once they finish their training which in some cases is free then let them go work somewheres else because they don't fit into the budget. Now that doesn't make any sense to me. I am sorry about that I truly am and I think its the problem here because people think like you do. I can see in the states where at least a little of my tax money goes to but I haven't seen it here and the taxes are quite high for not seeing anything for the money. This is just my observation and I know its not my country and maybe I shouldn't care what happens but I love my girlfriend and I love Poland and so that makes me care. If you sit back and don't say anything then nothing will change and it will only get worst in my honest opinion.

ladystardustThreads: 1 Posts: 84 Joined: May 7, 07	May 11, 07, 07:45 / #
Quoting: jaggar If you sit back and don't say anything then nothing will change and it will only get worst in my honest opinion. Exactly! Constructive criticism is only helpful, especially from the eyes of foreigners who live here and see things differently...

Grzegorz_Threads: 81 Posts: 6,204 Joined: Nov 16, 06	Edited by: Moderator May 11, 07, 09:37 / #
Quoting: ladystardust Well, I think you grasped a part of the truth, but there is also something like "distribution of goods" (how very Marks and Engels ;). I used to be a teacher myself and that's a shame that I was actually earning LESS than a Polish McDonald's worker. I don't know when and where you worked, but now a teacher with a few years experiance (after got promoted to that higher degree) gets definately more than a McD worker. And his full time job is what ? Something like 18h a week (you may say that they also need to check tests etc. but you must do similar things in almost every job above sales/factory workers) so a teacher may easily take additionaly 0.5 job in another school and some private tutitions and then If have a few years experiance should make ~3000PLN a month - that's fair money for Poland I would say. Sure you may say that they deserve more, but who doesn't ? And anywhere in the world teachers aren't makeing very much. In case of doctors those experianced and well qualified get very good money, often 10 thousand a month, sometimes even 20 and that's without bribes. Young ones or nurses get indeed very little, but whose fault is that ? Ministry of health and NFZ are run by doctors themselves, they should make a more balanced payment system with this(reeally a lot of) money they have from our insurencces and other taxes. Quoting: jaggar So you are saying let them go to school here and once they finish their training which in some cases is free then let them go work somewheres else because they don't fit into the budget. Now that doesn't make any sense to me. So we should tax ourseves even more to make teachers lives better ? Then non-teachers will be making even less and more of them will leave. Let me be not very impressed by this solution... Poland simply isn't a rich country, so there is no any perfect solution for these problems. If you want to "give" more to some people, you must take It away from others.

LoneStrangerThreads: 3 Posts: 531 Joined: Jan 30, 07	May 11, 07, 10:29 / #
Quoting: krysia In Poland they will too if you pay them more money You are learning...

ladystardustThreads: 1 Posts: 84 Joined: May 7, 07	May 11, 07, 10:33 / #
Quoting: Grzegorz_ teacher may easily take additionaly 0.5 job in another school and some private tutitions and then If have a few years experiance should make ~3000PLN a month - that's fair money for Poland I would say. Wow, where do you work. Grzegorz, a university asisstant on a public university in a big city gets 800 and has no permission to work elsewhere (the job I was offered). I was getting 1100 at a gymnasium (English teacher, 3 yrs experience). McDonald - 1500 in Warsaw :D I agree that older teachers get more, or teachers in private schools, or in Warsaw. Quoting: Grzegorz_ In case of doctors those experianced and well qualified get very good money, often 10 thousand a month, sometimes even 20 and that's without bribes. You mean private practice? Definitely not public health care. Quoting: Grzegorz_ Poland simply isn't a rich country, so there is no any perfect solution for these problems. So you advocate sitting here doing nothing? I see at least a couple of solutions: - less changes in the government (well, don't we have a brand new minister every time we turn on the telly?) - NO extra / early elections - END to long debates about the former UB and SB workers and NO money put in new and new again policies concerned with that - NO money for Włoszczowa train station-type projects - NO money for heated pavement in front of His Majesty the President palace - educating people, so they can make use of the EU financial help (How much possibilies are there left unused?) ...and so on and so on and so on. I bet we can scrap some pennies there ;)

jaggar	May 11, 07, 11:17 / #
I have seen how teachers work and for someone that says they only work 18 hours a week is very funny. The average income for a teacher with 5 years experiece is more like 1500 a month so how can you honestly say that gregorz. Most teachers I know have to work at home for hours preparing their lessons grading their tests and so on. Do you really think their day ends when their classes do you must know some lousy teachers.

Grzegorz_Threads: 81 Posts: 6,204 Joined: Nov 16, 06	May 11, 07, 12:36 / #
Quoting: ladystardust a university asisstant What's this ? You say that "nauczyciel mianowany" working 1.5 jobs (which is still less than 30h a week) + few h of tutitions a week is making less than 3000PLN a month ? He probably makes more than that. Quoting: ladystardust You mean private practice? Definitely not public health care. Check how much directors of hospitals or "ordynatorzy" make. My friend's mother is "lekarz rodzinny" and makes 5-6 thousand a month and doesn't work really hard. Quoting: ladystardust I see at least a couple of solutions: - less changes in the government (well, don't we have a brand new minister every time we turn on the telly?) - NO extra / early elections - END to long debates about the former UB and SB workers and NO money put in new and new again policies concerned with that - NO money for Włoszczowa train station-type projects - NO money for heated pavement in front of His Majesty the President palace These things would save enough money to buy a beer for every Pole about once a year. And absorbtions of European funds grew within last year from one of to worst to one of the best in EU.

jaggar	May 11, 07, 14:55 / #
Gregorz I have a solution for you since you doubt so much what I say ask a high school teacher what they make per month and ask them how many hours they work in total to make that I am quite sure that you will see that this is a serious problem in the country and what will your tell your son or daughter when they say they want to be a teacher. I would ask them if they were joking. Now think what will happen when they realize how much they will make as a teacher why would anyone do it and what would the country be without any teachers if there is no future for them or worse public health care doctors or nurses are they all going to be imported from poorer countries.

Grzegorz_Threads: 81 Posts: 6,204 Joined: Nov 16, 06	May 11, 07, 15:34 / #
Quoting: jaggar why would anyone do it and what would the country be without any teachers I don't think that we have shortage of teachers.

Tyk	May 11, 07, 17:27 / #
Quoting: jaggar My personal (American) view on Poland You are lucky. Ty to live with Blue Shield.