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Do Poles get confused over the different word endings?


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KoachThreads: 19
Posts: 158
Joined: Jan 12, 07 		  Mar 14, 07, 12:33 /  #
Do the different cases pose as a challenge to native speakers of Polish? I'm just curious.
Aga76Threads: 1
Posts: 42
Joined: Feb 25, 07 		  Mar 14, 07, 12:34 /  #
Nope, we don't
MarekThreads: 4
Posts: 1,120
Joined: Feb 15, 07 		  Mar 14, 07, 12:49 /  #
Koach,
I would suppose it's the same whether English native speakers confuse the tenses simple vs. progressive ( "I speak..."vs. "I am speaking...") or if Germans mix up their cases etc.

Natives may make any number of linguistic errors, basic mistakes though, such as the very foundations of their language, are probably not among them.

Marek
MichalThreads: -
Posts: 2,408
Joined: Feb 27, 07 		  Mar 18, 07, 16:37 /  #
Spelling can be a problem. I have seen examples such as zecz not rzecz and I had a letter once from an adult who wrote sluf for slow! lech Walesa said rekami for rekoma so yes, Polish people do often make mistakes.
MarekThreads: 4
Posts: 1,120
Joined: Feb 15, 07 		  Mar 18, 07, 16:41 /  #
Walesa's errors, e.g. "rekami" for "rekoma" might be equivalent to our Bushisms, "nucular" not "nuclear" etc.

President Eisenhower was legendary for sentences like "Things are more the way they are now, than they ever were."
Marek
mlody   Mar 18, 07, 16:47 /  #
I noticed the younger generation like myself don't care too much about grammar or spelling - as long as the word sounds good (for example, "zoltko" and "rzultko" sound correct) they are happy . I think Poles need to do something about that and make unified norms.
MichalThreads: -
Posts: 2,408
Joined: Feb 27, 07 		  Mar 19, 07, 08:36 /  #
President Eienhower's legendary sentences is another matter. We were talking about grammar and spelling. No politician ever says anything that makes sense.
polkawusa   Mar 19, 07, 13:08 /  #
Quoting: Koach
Koach Do the different cases pose as a challenge to native speakers of Polish? I'm just curious.


No. At least not those that grew up with them. Like at school or at home. Then it's like second nature, like American and English with certain letters that are not in the Polish alphabet. Like Q. It's second nature for Americans to use it.

Ok I don't think that was a good example.

xshrugsx

Polka w USA
StevieThreads: 1
Posts: 25
Joined: Mar 19, 07 		  Mar 19, 07, 20:48 /  #
What gets me so confused...how does knowing the case of the word tell you what ending to use?
Like, say I know the sentence will use the genitive...what are the rules then for "conjugating" a certain noun. I've seen lots of examples, but nothing consistant enough that I can gather what the rules are. Please tell me there are rules!!

Haha...my Polish friends tell me the sentence will still be understood, even if I use the wrong ending. However, I'm thinking I should attempt to figure it out anyway
MarekThreads: 4
Posts: 1,120
Joined: Feb 15, 07 		Edited by: Marek   Mar 20, 07, 07:08 /  #
The case of the noun is normally determined by the verb or preposition as In German,
Polish seems almost quixotic in its use of such cases for which there are few rules as much as there are examples of usage.
Marek
MarekThreads: 4
Posts: 1,120
Joined: Feb 15, 07 		  Mar 20, 07, 07:25 /  #
Steve,

To continue briefly, nouns are "declined", verbs are "conjugated". Any Polish grammmar will give lists of verbs which are governed by certain cases, e.g. "pisac" = to write, always takes the accusative case (and the corresponding endings). "Pisze dlugi list." = I'm writing a long letter." vs. "wladzac" = to have a command of, i.e. fluency in a language, "On wladza kilkoma jezykami = He has a command of several languages. "Wladzac" takes the instrumental case, along with the prerequisite endings, e.g. the adjectival " kilka (several) " adds "-oma" and "jezyk" (language) adds the nominal "-ami".
What can make Polish seem like a hard language is the seemingly slippery rules applied to noun endings for "animate" vs. inanimate" nouns having different genders.
For this, an immensely longer post would be necessary. I'd therefore consult a detailed grammar book or an outline of Polish grammar.

Powodzenia!
Marek
MarekThreads: 4
Posts: 1,120
Joined: Feb 15, 07 		Edited by: Marek   Mar 20, 07, 07:37 /  #
Michal,

I was once told by a Polish native speaker, an English TOEFL-student of mine in fact, that when she was of grade school age, the most common mistake during Polish class was to write "ogrut" for "ogrod" (with the accent-aigu like mark above the letter "o") on dictations.
Marek
StevieThreads: 1
Posts: 25
Joined: Mar 19, 07 		  Mar 20, 07, 14:32 /  #
Thanks Marek
I have a detailed book on Polish grammer...and I STILL agonize over which endings to use
::sigh:: Its so much easier to read than to write...

Thanks for your help. Clearly, you know what you are talking about, so I might just come here for answers too.
MarekThreads: 4
Posts: 1,120
Joined: Feb 15, 07 		  Mar 21, 07, 07:05 /  #
thanx, Stevie!
I know what I'm talking about so much I added an extra "z" to "wladac"!!
Appreciate the vote of confidence though. I never pretend however to be totally accurate in written Polish, merely fluent.
Marek

Widze, ze mieszkasz tu w Nowym Jorku. Ja tez. W Queensie. A ty? Czy uczysz sie teraz jezyka polskiego, albo studiowalas na uniwersytecie? Czy juz bylas w Polsce?
MichalThreads: -
Posts: 2,408
Joined: Feb 27, 07 		  Mar 21, 07, 10:05 /  #
It should read byles as Stevie, I imagine, is a man!
MarekThreads: 4
Posts: 1,120
Joined: Feb 15, 07 		  Mar 21, 07, 10:23 /  #
Check "her "profile. As in "Stevie Smith", the famous British lesbian poet.
Marek
MichalThreads: -
Posts: 2,408
Joined: Feb 27, 07 		  Mar 21, 07, 15:52 /  #
Who is Stevie Smith?
MichalThreads: -
Posts: 2,408
Joined: Feb 27, 07 		  Mar 21, 07, 15:56 /  #
What famous lesbian poet? I have NEVER heard of her!!
StevieThreads: 1
Posts: 25
Joined: Mar 19, 07 		  Mar 21, 07, 21:30 /  #
Haha...never heard of Stevie Smith either. But...as I've already expressed confidence in Marek's ability to know what he's talking about....I guess I gotta believe him. Plus it can totally be a girl's name

Hmmm...not gonna try to respond in Polish on a message board where my words will sound so pathetically wrong to so many people

I'm actually in Queens too Small world. I'm still just trying to learn Polish on my own. Got my pocket translator, some grammar books, ever-so-helpful internet websites.....and in November I splurged on the Rosetta Stone program (which, hilariously, has not yet taught me how to say "czesc" But it's still great for what it does teach.

I was in Poland this January, for the first time in my life - visiting friends that I met in the US over the summer. Hence, my initial interest in the language. I loved it over there though, and I plan to go back again.
I'm assuming you've been to Poland at least once yourself? Are you originally from there?
MarekThreads: 4
Posts: 1,120
Joined: Feb 15, 07 		  Mar 22, 07, 06:56 /  #
A well-known English authoress of the gay persuasion who became a 60's icon in the London underground (no pun on your "tube" )scene.
Marek
MarekThreads: 4
Posts: 1,120
Joined: Feb 15, 07 		  Mar 22, 07, 06:59 /  #
Czesc, Stevie.

"....where my words will sound so pathetically wrong...."

CWICZENIE TWORZY MISTRZA, i.e. You gotta start somewhere.
Marek
MichalThreads: -
Posts: 2,408
Joined: Feb 27, 07 		  Mar 26, 07, 03:50 /  #
We seem to have got off the point here. If you are having problems with Polish endings you can buy an autobiographical dictionary (if I have spelled it right that is) look out for a slownik ortograficzny-it would be very usefull to you. They may be quite expensive as most dictionaries are but if you are in Poland or visit it sometimes you should be able to pick one up-failing that, -try e-bay or amazon-you never know...
MarekThreads: 4
Posts: 1,120
Joined: Feb 15, 07 		Edited by: Marek   Mar 26, 07, 08:06 /  #
Michal,

Think you mean "orthographical" dictionary (just as in Polish ), NOT autobiographical!
Marek
MichalThreads: -
Posts: 2,408
Joined: Feb 27, 07 		  Mar 26, 07, 10:21 /  #
You are probably right, I was not sure and said so. However, it is a useful tool and is the only way somebody is ever going to get through the minefield of endings unless you have a fantastic memory. What lawyer remembers all legal cases or can any Englishma know all the words in a standard English dictionary? That is why we have books and an alphabet!
MichalThreads: -
Posts: 2,408
Joined: Feb 27, 07 		  Mar 26, 07, 10:28 /  #
In fact it would be a total wast of time learning all Polish word endings-you could spend the time doing something else like learning another third language from scratch. Just sitting learning thoudands of stupid word endings is unlikely to enhance your career prospects very much.
MichalThreads: -
Posts: 2,408
Joined: Feb 27, 07 		  Mar 26, 07, 10:34 /  #
Quoting: Marek
Natives may make any number of linguistic errors, basic mistakes though, such as the very foundations of their language, are probably not among them.

I work with English native speakers who make mistakes all the time. As an example 'we was' and 'I aint got none' and in pronunciation too-another becomes 'anover' and brother becomes 'brover' there are lots more but I can not think of them now. Oh yes, I have a friend who was a student of German in Portsmouth when I was also at the polytechnic in the early 1980's and he once said about something which I can not recall now but he said 'it was more worser'. So the english do make dreadful mistakes in grammar and so on.
MarekThreads: 4
Posts: 1,120
Joined: Feb 15, 07 		Edited by: Marek   Mar 26, 07, 12:31 /  #
Michal,
Regarding your last post, English-language native speakers tend to be at a growing disadvantage, especially here in the States (apparently in the UK as well) in terms of the rate of illiteracy. "Brover"/"Brother" is merely a striking example, yet the total number is doubtless vast.

In smaller, more homogeneous language groups, where speakers of those languages are forced by sheer speaker percentage to learn majority languages, i.e. English, their literacy level tends to be strikingly high compared with the US or Great Britain. Iceland, for instance, has a population of a mere quarter million, enough to fit into several major New York highrises. Their language isn't spoken (even studied much) outside of that country. Therefore, they've got to learn English.

Marek
daffyThreads: 40
Posts: 2,118
Joined: Feb 5, 07 		  Mar 26, 07, 12:34 /  #
well i won't speak for the US or GB but the majority of people I know would have a much higher standard of spoken English than is given credit for here.

I am from Cork, Ireland. Lived in GB and must say that its down to social class moreso than native speakers in general. There are just a proportion of loud ignorant people that give this impression with a larger, softer spoken society.

my two cents.
MarekThreads: 4
Posts: 1,120
Joined: Feb 15, 07 		  Mar 26, 07, 13:21 /  #
Daffy,

I agree. And yet, sadly, perception is reality and regrettably these exceptions do not confirm the rule.
The "Celtic Tiger" is indeed something to be proud of. Generations of social hardship and fierce political infighting though, continue to back up on the tremendous progress made thus far.
Just MY two cents worth.
Marek
StevieThreads: 1
Posts: 25
Joined: Mar 19, 07 		  Mar 26, 07, 14:28 /  #
Dziękuję bardzo dla pomoc. Mam niejedno słownik, i książka “Beginning Polish – by Alexander Schenker" <-- Ono jest bardzo stary.

Jesli mówię, wszystko mi jedno….ale, jesli piszę ….well, I try to keep my sentences relatively correct in terms of spelling and grammar, no matter what the language. Writing = documentation = eternal proof of one’s errors :P
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