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Archives / 2005-2007 / Grammar, Usage / posts: 10

Pan/Pani/Panie name variation



AntosThreads: 7
Posts: 18
Joined: Sep 23, 07 		  Sep 23, 07, 11:52 /  #
What are the rules when using someone's name when refering to them as Pan/Pani/Panie.
I think the name Maria changes to Pani Mario?
I want to know in a more general sense how to change the name endings.
MarekThreads: 4
Posts: 1,120
Joined: Feb 15, 07 		Edited by: Marek   Sep 23, 07, 16:47 /  #
Your question in the example "Pani Mario!" concerns the use of the vocative feminine, whereby "Maria" becomes "Mario".

"Pan" is used in simple commands ("Chodz Pan!" = Come!) or indicative sentences ("Tujest Pan Kowalski."= This is Mr. Kowalski. or "Czy pan jest inzenyerem?" = Are you an engineer, sir?)

"Pani" is the female form for the above.
"Panie" is the vocative (seventh case!) masculine, e.g. "Serwus, Panie Witoldzie!" = Greetings, Witold!

The changes are numerous depending of course upon the respective case:

Dzien dobry, Panu Kowalskiemu! = (Dat. masc. "Good evening, Mr. Kowalski!"
Gdzie jest Pan Kowalski? = nom. masc. "Where is Mr. Kowalski?"
To jest ksziaska Pana Kowalskiego. = gen. masc. "Here is Mr. Kowalski's book.
Panie Kowalski, pozdrawiam! voc. masc. = Greetings to you, Mr. Kowalski!

The rest is rather extensive. This is just an intro.
Powodzenia!

Marek
me-thinks   Sep 27, 07, 14:28 /  #
When I visit family they appear to say as if to call the person - to get there attention. Pani (name). I thought it was a respect thing. There name didn't change when using it. I thought it meant miss ans pan was mr.

I've heard my dad say for pardon/what as well before.

Marek you said Dzien dobry, Panu Kowalskiemu! = (Dat. masc. "Good evening, Mr. Kowalski!" Would I say Dzien dobra as I'm female or does it dempend if you say it to man or woman.
MarekThreads: 4
Posts: 1,120
Joined: Feb 15, 07 		  Sep 28, 07, 12:37 /  #
Me-thinks!

As to your question about "Dzien dobra!" for a woman as opposed to a man, this NEVER would happen in Polish (save as some sarcastic linguistic joke). The male/female thing in gender changes, occurs solely in the past tenses of verbs, e.g. "Ja spalem" (I was sleeping - masculine) vs. "Ja spalam" for the feminine.
me-thinks   Sep 29, 07, 15:17 /  #
I'm not sure why your being so negative - I asked a simple question.

Dzien Dobra, gen dobra - i was told that I wold use this as opposed to what you put. i am quite offended actually. i asked a genuine question.

My female relatives say what i asked to me so why would I think any different. Its not my fault if you don't know.
KrzysztofThreads: 2
Posts: 1,146
Joined: Jul 26, 07 		  Sep 29, 07, 20:51 /  #
you always say "dzień dobry". the adjective "dobry" (=good) has to be in masculine form because it is concorded with the noun "dzień" (=day), it has NOTHING to do with pan/pani or whatever you put after the greeting.
KrzysztofThreads: 2
Posts: 1,146
Joined: Jul 26, 07 		  Sep 29, 07, 20:54 /  #
I just realize where you may be coming from

you treat the word dobra as a noun in Genetive form? there's a noun "dobro" (good) as opposed to "zło" (evil), and it has indeed the Genetive "dobra", but it's not what it's here, here it's the adjective "dobry" (dobra would be feminine form, dobre neuter), you don't say, when greeting someone, "day of the good" even in English :)
MichalThreads: -
Posts: 2,408
Joined: Feb 27, 07 		Edited by: Michal   Sep 30, 07, 04:23 /  #
There is a term 'dobra' which is rendered as O.K., I agree, it is understood ect. Skonczyles ten list? Tak, dobra..is an example of a colloquial form used very often in day to day Polish. However, the term dzien dobra I have never heard as such and is never used in Polish as dzien is a masculine noun. Ja jestem dobra would be correct when spoken by a lady though.
MarekThreads: 4
Posts: 1,120
Joined: Feb 15, 07 		  Oct 1, 07, 09:18 /  #
Nothing to add here to what Krzysztof just posted.

Marek
me-thinks   Oct 3, 07, 15:23 /  #
Mareck I see you've changed your post. If i knew all the m /f words - i wouldn't still be learning - i would know.


Thanks for helping.
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