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Should goverments pull in war criminals from WWII?

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celinskiThreads: 83 Posts: 2,800 Joined: Nov 14, 07	Dec 6, 07, 12:01 / #
This article tends to look at Nazi and leave out Russian or SS Ukraine. My question is for all war criminals. They would now be rather old and trial dates would push that even older before a sentence would start. What do others feel? Carol Last Chance' to Hunt Down Nazi War Criminals http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2007/12/05/AR2007 120502437_pf.html

isthatuThreads: 4 Posts: 1,627 Joined: Jun 8, 07	Dec 6, 07, 14:09 / #
Well Carol,where would you start,or rather stop. Do we include all the Allied veterns who commited war crimes,very often boasting about them in memoires (and no,I dont mean the "russkies" ) ,war criminals came in every uniform during WW2,things could get a little akward say when kind old Granpa Abe in Hokenscotch Idaho gets dragged to court for shooting unarmed ,surrendering " Japs" back on Okinawa (as any wartime footage shows GIs were very trigger hapy with the old "nips" ). Or do we hunt down the Officers responsible for the "No prisoner" orders that were a regular feature of allied life in Normandy and beyond,where for set times,a day,a weekend perhaps, all germans captured were shot out of hand,not for any tactical reasons,just for "revenge"? All the above are War crimes under the nurenburg statues and Geneva conventions but only a handfull of allied soldiers were ever charged with these crimes,rather like today where a GI can take part in torture or a massacre such as haditha and serve a 12 month sentence......The victor is always blameless....not. All this story seems to do is reinforce the idea that some war crimes are more heinous than others and some victims more deserving of justice.

celinskiThreads: 83 Posts: 2,800 Joined: Nov 14, 07	Dec 6, 07, 14:31 / #
Quoting: isthatu and some victims more deserving of justice. Thats what I was thinking. After my family were sent to concentration camps the crimes were their homes were "Kresy" went beyond the limit. I remember when I first started learning about this, I called my father and said, " Thank God you were in Siberia." He never had to ask but knew why I said that. To fully understand what the SS Ukraine, Jewish and Germans were capable of doing I had to read and see a history. No one was spared and the manners of death were nothing shot of barbaric. Britian knows who commited the crimes and after the war gave them a safe home. In Ukraine, they know and one person said the families need to come to terms with their families misdeeds. I guess I was just wondering if anyone else thinks about this? Carol http://genocide007.webpark.pl/przedmowa_english.htm

isthatuThreads: 4 Posts: 1,627 Joined: Jun 8, 07	Dec 6, 07, 14:44 / #
Quoting: celinski Britian knows who commited the crimes and after the war gave them a safe home. In Ukraine, they know and one person said the families need to come to terms with their families misdeeds. Carol yes,post war Britains record is rather patchy on this I will grant you,for example,all "cossaks"(who had faught under germany) were sent back to the Soviets after the war when a good half of them had never been "soviet citizens" yet an entire division of Ukrainianes was re settled here with no questions asked.The reason,an entire division of dedicated anti communists was a usefull asset at the start of the Cold War.Much the same reasoning applied in the States, Werner von Braun being the most obvious candidate, he of V1 and V2 fame and knowing participent in the nazi slave labour trade (his factories employed slaves he knew about) was snapped up by the US govt' and went on to kick start the Nasa space programe.....The US also allowed the vast majority of jappanesse war criminals to go unpunnished as japan was going to be a vital ally against the Reds. Quoting: celinski I guess I was just wondering if anyone else thinks about this? Carol I guess you could say ,every day I pass the local Ukrainiane club and know it was set up by former members of the SS Galizian Division I think of this a little . My village in the imidiate post war period was a melting pot,many Poles and an equal amont of Ukrainianes settled here,for around 5 or 10 years,so local word of mouth goes,these 2 groups stayed as far apart as possible,after this they began to realise a ashared feeling of exile and wartime misdeads by either side wre left in the past as new lives were being carved out.

Foreigner4Threads: 22 Posts: 1,969 Joined: Nov 18, 07	Dec 6, 07, 15:04 / #
the short answer is no. Governments of today do not have the perspective of being in that situation nor are they trustworthy enough for this task. And this task seems very political. The long answer is what could this possibly accomplish?

southernThreads: 116 Posts: 10,945 Joined: May 17, 07	Edited by: southern Dec 6, 07, 15:15 / #
Celinski you are very ignorant.Do you know who wanted to name SS,SD and Gestapo criminal organization,imprison all their former members and execute their leaders?And who was against of calling them criminal organizations? You should realize that Soviet Union put pressure to Nyremeberg trial in order to achieve a decision that would characterize SS,SD and Gestapo as criminal organizations.However English and Americans reacted very hard.Why?What the hell did SS,SD and Gestapo have to do with Americans? You want to open the Pandora box?

celinskiThreads: 83 Posts: 2,800 Joined: Nov 14, 07	Dec 6, 07, 15:27 / #
Quoting: southern What the hell did SS,SD and Gestapo have to do with americans? Where do you think the ones that survived live? USA Quoting: southern Celinski you are very ignorant. If they held even some of them accountable it would have showed that someone gave a sh*t. Its accountability that prevents this in the future. As for your "ignorant" screw you southern, ignorance is kissing butt and pretending it didn't happen. Do you see how people in the nation reacted when they had a day for SS Ukraines. I am not saying they are all bad, it's because the ones that were was left unresolved and this gives them all a bad name. Quoting: southern You want to open the Pandora box? Who's ignorant now, do you think I learned this from being there? No, people still have very strong feelings about this. Carol

isthatuThreads: 4 Posts: 1,627 Joined: Jun 8, 07	Dec 6, 07, 15:30 / #
Quoting: celinski Quoting: southern What the hell did SS,SD and Gestapo have to do with americans? Where do you think the ones that survived live? USA Yes,many of them do,or did. Havnt you heard the expresion from the USA/USSR Space race of the 1950s/60s, that the race was contested between "our nazis and their nazis"? Even the post war OSS and later CIA openly admit,thanks to your freedom of information laws that many,many leading nazis were smuggled out of germany at the end of the war to work for good ole uncle sam.

southernThreads: 116 Posts: 10,945 Joined: May 17, 07	Edited by: southern Dec 6, 07, 15:33 / #
Quoting: celinski Where do you think the ones that survived live? USA Yes,I know.Like Werner von Brown and thousands of others.So what do you want?To change US orientation and recognize all of them as criminals?Because if ukrainian SS are criminals,then why are German SS,Belgian SS,Skandinavian SS,Latvian SS not criminals as well?

El GatoThreads: 9 Posts: 459 Joined: Sep 21, 07	Dec 6, 07, 15:33 / #
Quoting: celinski Should goverments pull in war criminals from WWII? It's too late now. Too many years have gone by to punish them for what they have done. War crimes shouldn't be treated like everyday crimes. What happens during war wouldn't necessarily happen outside of war. People like BTK can be imprisoned years after commtting crimes, but imprisoning someone many years after the war is just ignorant. War makes people do drastic things, and many, not all, can't be accountable for them so many years after they happened. 1 or 2 years after the war are fine, but over 50 years aren't. Just my 2 cents. :]

southernThreads: 116 Posts: 10,945 Joined: May 17, 07	Dec 6, 07, 15:39 / #
Quoting: isthatu that the race was contested between "our nazis and their nazis"? Yes,but there was an important difference.Former nazis working for Soviet Union had been seriously brainwashed and given up nazism at all.They had to prove hardcore communists before working for the army.It was part of denazification that Soviet Union applied everywhere it could influence. Nazis working for USA never refused their ideology.They were never brainwashed or denazified.When many of them were departed out of USA as war criminals in the late 70's(then they were discovered by the americans!),they accused US of being unfair and ungrateful to them.

celinskiThreads: 83 Posts: 2,800 Joined: Nov 14, 07	Dec 6, 07, 15:42 / #
Truth be told, if I was to decide , I would have to say yes, because by never having them be accountable leaves it unresolved and for the ones that crossed the line, so to speak, we are not giving resolve. I use SS Ukraine as I have read up on them, they give a bad name to many SS Ukraines that have done nothing wrong. Carol

isthatuThreads: 4 Posts: 1,627 Joined: Jun 8, 07	Dec 6, 07, 15:42 / #
Im not sure what the difference is/was,they should all have been rotting in cells till atleast the mid 1960s. So, if they were suddenly deported in the 70s that just seems to be symptomatic of uncle sams double standards, Deporting one set of faschists while setting up Pinochet et al in south america.....

isthatuThreads: 4 Posts: 1,627 Joined: Jun 8, 07	Dec 6, 07, 15:44 / #
Quoting: celinski I use SS Ukraine as I have read up on them, they give a bad name to many SS Ukraines that have done nothing wrong. Carol One thing wrong with that Carol,everything! What on earth do you mean by the SS Ukraine who never did anything wrong? they were all trators who joined up with the nazis to fight against their countrymen!!!!!

southernThreads: 116 Posts: 10,945 Joined: May 17, 07	Dec 6, 07, 15:44 / #
Quoting: celinski when they had a day for SS Ukraines. I am not saying they are all bad, it's because the ones that were was left unresolved and this gives them all a bad name. Now SS Ukraine are recognized officially as national heros in Ukraine.They even get pensions from state for their participation in SS. There is a sensitive point for Europe here.These people fought against communists and Soviet Union for many years and are a symbol for ukrainian independance european oriented.You cannot touch them without facing problems with other european Union members.

wildroverThreads: 180 Posts: 8,188 Joined: Jun 7, 07	Dec 6, 07, 22:40 / #
You have to bear in mind that when the Germans first invaded the Ukraine they were welcomed as liberators...Most Ukrainians were glad to see the back of Stalins boys , and thought life could not be any worse under the Germans....Many Ukrainians were happy to join the Germans in the fight against Russia , thinking this would help them regain some independace after the war....If Hitler hadn,t been so insistant that all slavs were sub humans unworthy of being allies he could have had all Ukrainia on his side , and maybe Belarus too...The outcome of the war in the east may have been different....Instead the Ukrainians were treated as badly as all the other ocuppied slavs , and soon turned against the Germans.....The waffen ss were a rule unto themselves , they had Danes , French , Dutch , Latvian . and even Muslim ss divisions , indeed most of the troops defending Berlin to the last were not Germans.....

southernThreads: 116 Posts: 10,945 Joined: May 17, 07	Edited by: southern Dec 7, 07, 04:59 / #
Quoting: wildrover If Hitler hadn,t been so insistant that all slavs were sub humans unworthy of being allies he could have had all Ukrainia on his side , and maybe Belarus too... The Soviets had agents inside population who killed every german leader who tried to gain Slavs' sympathy.NKVD was extremely satisfied with the brutal methods Koch,the leader of german occupation in Ukraine applied.They tried to support Koch in every way possible. So the sympathy of the population towards Germans soon vanished and then it was late to recapture.Koch said ''the Ukrainians are negroes.I will suck every inch of blood of Ukraine''.Then no miracle so many Ukrainians joined the red army.

celinskiThreads: 83 Posts: 2,800 Joined: Nov 14, 07	Dec 7, 07, 07:46 / #
Genocide is a deliberate elimination of whole nations, ethnic, religious, and also racial groups of people by physical killings as well as by the control of births, compulsory removal of children and the creation of living conditions which will physically destroy these groups and individuals. http://www.stankiewicze.com/ludobojstwo/index_en.html We may not get those responsible for Katyn to trial but what about those responsible for the killings in Poznan 1956? Those killed in December 1970 protests? Carol

southernThreads: 116 Posts: 10,945 Joined: May 17, 07	Dec 7, 07, 08:31 / #
Quoting: celinski We may not get those responsible for Katyn to trial but what about those responsible for the killings in Poznan 1956? Those killed in December 1970 protests? Everything is buried now.In every former communist country Czech Republic,Hungary,Poland no communist was prosecuted.Even for events like in Prague spring 1968,or Hungary uprising in 1956 there have been no trials.

celinskiThreads: 83 Posts: 2,800 Joined: Nov 14, 07	Dec 8, 07, 12:30 / #
Quoting: southern Yes,I know.Like Werner von Brown and thousands of others. I was referring to the victims like my family that lost their country to communist Poland. Carol

southernThreads: 116 Posts: 10,945 Joined: May 17, 07	Edited by: southern Dec 8, 07, 12:58 / #
O.K.Start from Poles first.Try to convince them to set trials for the happenings of 1956 in Warsaw and 1980 in Gdansk.

celinskiThreads: 83 Posts: 2,800 Joined: Nov 14, 07	Dec 8, 07, 13:47 / #
Quoting: southern O.K.Start from Poles first Should goverments pull in war criminals from WWII? I wanted to know others thoughts? Carol

BubbaWooThreads: 46 Posts: 4,438 Joined: Sep 26, 06	Dec 8, 07, 13:57 / #
i would rather see effort put into preventing was crimes being committed now and punishing those that do

celinskiThreads: 83 Posts: 2,800 Joined: Nov 14, 07	Dec 8, 07, 15:30 / #
Quoting: BubbaWoo i would rather see effort put into preventing was crimes being committed now I thought they were, if in fact they are not, then yes, I whole heartdly aggree. Carol

omniba	Edited by: omniba Dec 9, 07, 16:02 / #
Should goverments pull in war criminals from WWII? Yes they should - as soon as the criminals are found, and irrespective of their age. These people must be put on trial so as not to create a legal precedent for those who already have or who intend to follow in their footsteps in the future. If there is any forgiving to be done it must be done by the victims or their families, and only after a fair trial.

Patrycja19Threads: 79 Posts: 3,972 Joined: Oct 31, 06	Dec 9, 07, 17:40 / #
Quoting: omniba Should goverments pull in war criminals from WWII? well who is still lurking free these days? wouldnt they be dead by now? or mostly dead.. and what good would it do to put a man who is laying in a hospital bed bedridden and excreting on himself in jail? if it was to happen, it should have happend when his life was a life so that he can suffer ( not that he would ever feel the suffering he gave) but his lively years would be gone.

omniba	Dec 9, 07, 17:55 / #
Quoting: Patrycja19 and what good would it do to put a man who is laying in a hospital bed It could be useful to show others with similar intentions that there is no way they'll be left in peace. A sort of deterrent. People will always think they can get away with war crimes because others have done so in the past. A line must be drawn somewhere otherwise these crimes will just continue to happen.

isthatuThreads: 4 Posts: 1,627 Joined: Jun 8, 07	Edited by: isthatu Dec 9, 07, 17:58 / #
Quoting: Patrycja19 and what good would it do to put a man who is laying in a hospital bed bedridden and excreting on himself in jail? no,the Nazis would have just injected such a pathetic old man with phennol if he couldnt be dragged to the Gas chamber or execution pit. They were no respectors of age,why should that now be a defense? I would say one reason why people are not being as agresivly persued as some might wish is then the old Nurenburg trials would be in the public eye again. War crimes such as Invading countries on made up pretexts or detaining people without trial or just cause,or maybe even the torture of prisoners or deliberate aerial bombing of civilians might make certain current govts' a little uneasy to say the least.

Patrycja19Threads: 79 Posts: 3,972 Joined: Oct 31, 06	Dec 9, 07, 18:05 / #
Quoting: omniba It could be useful to show others with similar intentions that there is no way they'll be left in peace. A sort of deterrent. People will always think they can get away with war crimes because others have done so in the past. A line must be drawn somewhere otherwise these crimes will just continue to happen. Quoting: isthatu no,the Nazis would have just injected such a pathetic old man with phennol if he couldnt be dragged to the Gas chamber or execution pit. They were no respectors of age,why should that now be a defense? I get where you both coming from but if hes already a vegtable.. he doesnt know hes even in jail. and is probably already dying.. or has cancer.. I mean. why bring this to a trial when hes about the face his judgement day with someone far more impotant then you or i. I know they deserve it, but at that point, I think its not going to prove much in the eyes of the public..

Foreigner4Threads: 22 Posts: 1,969 Joined: Nov 18, 07	Dec 9, 07, 19:18 / #
Quoting: isthatu I would say one reason why people are not being as agresivly persued as some might wish is then the old Nurenburg trials would be in the public eye again. War crimes such as Invading countries on made up pretexts or detaining people without trial or just cause,or maybe even the torture of prisoners or deliberate aerial bombing of civilians might make certain current govts' a little uneasy to say the least. ...8,9 and 10k.o.! isthatu has carpet bombed the correct all over this thread with that response!

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