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Using the Instrumental case between two inaminate nouns A and B



czarnykotThreads: 21
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  Sep 22, 08, 04:51 /  #
Until the other day I was fairly clear on how and when to use the Instrumental case. But then I hit a snag... If 'one inanimate thing A' is 'another inaminate thing B' which 'thing, A or B' is put into the Instrumental case? One can say A is B, or B is A. In English there is no problem. But in Polish... For example:
The biggest obstacle was the Church. I translated this in an essay I was writing as: Najlepsza przeszkoda była Kościołem. My Polish Internet teacher marked this as being wrong. She said, and of course I do not doubt her, that the sentence should have been: Najlepszą przeszkodą był Kościoł. However, she had difficulty in explaining why Church/Kościoł is in the Nominative case and obstacle/przeszkodą is in the Instrumental case. What are the rules of Instrumental usage in such cases? Or would Polish people avoid the Instrumental construction/difficulty/confusion and find a different way of expressing the same idea? Any help in resolving this problem area for me would be greatly appreciated. Many thanks in advance.

SwiteziankaThreads: -
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  Sep 22, 08, 11:39 /  #
Not "najlepszą" but "największą".

This is a very advanced question. The problem is not about syntax (which is OK in both sentences) but about semantics. I can explain it to you, but it will be long and difficult. I hope you know the difference between syntax and semantics... Are you sure you will feel like reading and analysing it?

If you know the theme-rheme (or topic-focus) distinction, then, it will be a bit shorter.
Michal2Threads: -
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  Sep 22, 08, 12:18 /  #
czarnykot:

ajlepszą przeszkodą był Kościoł. How

It can also be najlepszą depending on the context.
SwiteziankaThreads: -
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  Sep 22, 08, 12:27 /  #
Michal2:

It can also be najlepszą depending on the context.


No, it can't. "Najlepszą" means "the best".
Michal2Threads: -
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  Sep 22, 08, 14:56 /  #
Switezianka:

't. "Najlepszą" means "the best".

Yes, and that might be what was meant.
SwiteziankaThreads: -
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  Sep 22, 08, 15:19 /  #
If he meant "the best obstacle", he would write "the best obstacle", not "the biggest obstacle", I assume.
Anyway, I've never heard of good and bad obstacles. It just doesn't go together.
osiolThreads: 59
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Edited by: osiol   Sep 22, 08, 15:31 /  #
czarnykot:

would Polish people avoid the Instrumental construction/difficulty/confusion and find a different way of expressing the same idea?

If I might risk making an ass of myself...

I believe that you can say

Osioł to nieudacznik
rather than
Osioł jest nieudacznikiem
or
Nieudacznik jest osłem

Switezianka:

"the best obstacle",

The best obstacle on an obstacle course - that might be the thing made out of rope that you have to climb along without falling into a big muddy puddle underneath.
czarnykotThreads: 21
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  Sep 22, 08, 17:05 /  #
Switezianka:

Not "najlepszą" but "największą".

Hi Switezianka - Yes, you are quite right - I meant to write największą (the biggest, or most important). I had written this sentence in the context of women's rights. Certainly in France the Roman Catholic Church was a major obstacle to women achieving equality. Be that as it may, yes, I would be very interested in your answer to this very advanced question. I thought it could well be a question of semantics. Yes I understand the difference between syntax and semantics :-) If you wish please email me the explanation, unless you feel other PF members would benefit from the explanation as well. ( I am sure some members would :-).) I look forward to receiving your explanation either in my email inbox or via PF. Many thanks for your initial response.
YstadThreads: 2
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  Sep 22, 08, 18:02 /  #
I'd certainly like to read Switezianka's explanation here, if possible! And I'm very grateful to her for introducing me to the word 'rheme':)

My own stumbling thoughts on the subject are that being "the biggest obstacle" is an aspect/characteristic of "Church", but this cannot apply vice versa.

Perhaps in the same way, in Pawel jest prawnikiem, being "a lawyer" is an aspect/characteristic of Pawel, but "Pawel" cannot conceptually be an aspect/characteristic of being "a lawyer". Of course, you could have an emphatic sentence, "The lawyer is Pawel", but perhaps that is too "demonstrative" (?) to invoke the instrumental... Prawnik, to Pawel ???!

Anyway, my head hurts! Thanks for a helpful thread:)
osiolThreads: 59
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  Sep 22, 08, 18:12 /  #
I want Switezianka's explanation too. Don't just tell us it's difficult and then leave us without any help. Some of us have reached expert level already. Okay, maybe not some of us, but certainly some people.
SwiteziankaThreads: -
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  Sep 22, 08, 18:55 /  #
czarnykot:

Yes I understand the difference between syntax and semantics :-)


Great. I am very happy that you aren't another complete grammar ignorant who wants to get some advanced knowledge. It happened to me several times on this forum, that I answered advanced questions (but that's the most difficult I've found) and it came out that the people who asked them didn't understand very basic grammar terms I used.

So, I'll try to explain the problem in a way directed at someone who can deal with grammar.

Part 1.

If you've got a sentence like "John likes Mary", it answers 2 questions (about Noun Phrases): "Who does John like?" and "Who likes Mary". Quite obvious.

But in Polish we've got those damned cases. So, let's see how it goes in Polish.
Jaś lubi Marysię (John likes Mary), answers the following questions:
1)Kto lubi Marysię? (Who likes Mary; answer: Jaś)
2)Kogo lubi Jaś? (Who does John like?; answer: Marysię)

The answer to the "Kto?" (who) in q.1 is "Jaś". Both the words "kto?" and "Jaś" are in nominative case.
The answer to the "kogo?" (who, whom) in q.2. is "Marysię" - and both "kogo?" and "Marysię" are in accusative case.

So, we can see, that when we ask about a certain word in a sentence, the question word and the answer are in the same case

Let's take our problematic sentence:
The biggest obstacle was the church.

It's got 2 NPs: "the biggest obstacle" and "the church". So, in English, it answers 2 questions:
What was the biggest obstacle?
What was the church?

But in Polish it's a bit different.
Największą przeszkodą był Kościół , it answers questions:
1) Czym był Kościół? (ans: "największą przeszkodą")
(What was the church?)
2) Co było największą przeszkodą? (ans: Kościół) (What was the biggest obstacle?)

BUT...

"What was the church?" can in Polish be either "Czym (instr.) był kościół (nom.)?" or "Co (nom.) było kościołem (instr.)".
The same with "what was the biggest obstacle?" it can be either "Co (nom.) było największą przeszkodą (instr.)?" or "Czym (instr.) była największa przeszkoda (nom.)?"
Of course, the Noun Phrases of the answer to each of those question take case according to the cases in the questions they answer.

And how to know which of those question to answer?
It's the matter of semantics.

If you ask: Co było największą przeszkodą?, it means you want to identify the "obstacle".

If you ask Czym była największa przeszkoda? it is more like asking about some noun that would describe the "obstacle".

But sentence discussed is surely about identifying the "biggest obstacle". So, you must ask "Co", not "Czym?" and the answer would be "kościół", not "kościołem".

But I think that to get the semantic difference, you need more examples:

"Co jest twoim hobby?" (What's your hobby?)
"Wędkowanie" (fishing)

"Czym jest twoje hobby?"
"Sposobem na odprężenie się" (It's a way to relax)

"Kto jest lekarzem?" (Who's the doctor?)
"Grzesiek."

"Kim jest lekarz?" (Who's a doctor)
"Człowiekiem, który leczy ludzi" (A person who heals people).

"Kto będzie naszym nowym szefem?" (Who will be our new boss?)
"Andrzej."

"Kim będzie nasz nowy szef?"
"Niewyżytym sadystą"? (An unappeased sadist.)


But, why the hell is the nominative case not in the beginning of the sentence, as usual, but it goes after the copula?

I'll write it tomorrow. But word-order in Polish affects the meaning, too.
czarnykotThreads: 21
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  Sep 23, 08, 03:56 /  #
Hi again Switezianka!
Many thanks for the clear and well-expressed explanation (Part 1 :-) Your added examples towards the bottom of the explanation are really helpful. I've read it through several times and I think I have the hang of it. Polish is a lovely language, but oh so complicated :-) But being complicated makes it all that more interesting and challenging! I look forward to Part 2. I guess word order in Polish just had to affect the meaning of a sentence as well :-) Haha.
Michal2Threads: -
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  Sep 23, 08, 08:14 /  #
Switezianka:

r heard of good and bad obstacles. It just doesn't go together.

Yes it does. In the good old days of Communism, Polish people had to apply for a visa to visit the United Kingdom. That is just one very good example of a 'good obstacle'. I am sure that you too could think of many more should you sit down and think hard and long enough.
KrzysztofThreads: 2
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  Sep 23, 08, 09:11 /  #
Just another approach (without Polish grammar):
You should learn Latin :)
Look at the English sentence first.
The biggest obstacle was the Church. (Największą przeszkodą był Kościoł.)
vs.
The Church was the biggest obstacle. (Kościoł był największą przeszkodą.)

The 2nd sentence has, IMHO, the natural order, for the English language, of Subject + Verb + ? (dunno how to call it in English).
You can say "Paul was an electrician", but "An electrician was Paul" doesn't sound good to me.
The Church/obstacle combination gives you the possibility to switch the order, but the Church remains the logical subject of the sentence.
You can say for example "the Church was acting as the main/biggest obstacle"
or "the role of the biggest obstacle was played by the Church"
- using passive voice you can clearly see which part is active (Church - logical subject) and which is passive (the biggest obstacle - grammatical subject)
czarnykotThreads: 21
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  Sep 23, 08, 11:35 /  #
Hi Krzysztof and Switezianka
It looks like I've stirred up a real ol' hornet's nest re a non-native Polish speaker trying to use correctly the Instrumental case in the Polish language - apologies :-), but I find it fascinating. It certainly makes me also think about my own English language. Your approach Krzysztof is also very interesting re the Active and Passive noun within the sentence. Your approach does make a lot of sense. I would however, like to pass comment on a couple of items. (Subject + Verb + ? - I think it is the Predicate). Now to those two items:

1) The biggest obstacle was the Church. (Największą przeszkodą był Kościoł.)
vs.
The Church was the biggest obstacle. (Kościoł był największą przeszkodą.)


You say that the 2nd sentence is more natural in English... Maybe, but... To my mind the 2nd sentence is a general statement within a 'descriptive situation'. I can better imagine the 1st sentence being used/said more often because it is emphatic. For example, a group of people are discussing over dinner the issue of women's rights. All the various points have been raised and then someone says: '...., but when all is said and done, the biggest obstacle to women achieving equal rights was the Church!'.

2) You can say "Paul was an electrician", but "An electrician was Paul" doesn't sound good to me.

I agree wholeheartedly! 'An electrician was Paul' is almost nonsense! We would/could say in England - 'One of the electricians was Paul' - That makes sense.

Many thanks for your input Krzysztof. As I said, your Active/Passive approach makes a lot of sense. I am looking forward to Switezianka's following comments re 'word order also affecting the meaning' in such sentences.

PS - Learning Latin may well be a good idea... But... Mam 61 lat! Yuk! I think being able to speak Polish will be more rewarding than being able to speak Latin! But I do understand the point you are making. My step-father was a doctor and he was always emphasizing the importance of Latin ...
KrzysztofThreads: 2
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  Sep 23, 08, 18:12 /  #
czarnykot:

You say that the 2nd sentence is more natural in English

It's not what I meant. I only wanted to say that it had the most typical word order for English in everyday speach.

And "you should learn Latin" was just my high school maths teacher's mantra, I wasn't serious (although 3 years after high school I indeed started learning Latin, because it was obligatory for 2 years at my university).
SwiteziankaThreads: -
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  Sep 24, 08, 16:46 /  #
All right - we know what cases the nouns should take, so let's get to the word order(WO). You can roughly say that WO in a Polish sentence is free, but it is only an approximation. Some very weird WOs just aren't used ("Poszedł do wczoraj biblioteki Wojtek") and there is nothing complicated about it. Sometimes we change word order for emphasis, which isn't very difficult either.

The problem of the WO begins if we consider Polish sentences within a context.
Out of context you can say:
Zobaczyłam mężczyznę na ulicy.
Na ulicy zobaczyłam mężczyznę.
Mężczyznę zobaczyłam na ulicy.

(I saw a/the man in the street.)
It looks as if it meant the same but if we put it into a text, we'll see that WO matters. *

Ex.1
" Wyszłam wczoraj rano z domu. (I went outside yesterday morning) Na ulicy zobaczyłam mężczyznę." is OK, while "Wyszłam wczoraj rano z domu. Mężczyznę zobaczyłam na ulicy. "is not. But:
Ex. 2
" Zauważyłam w Warszawie pewne młode małżeństwo. (I spotted a young couple in Warsaw) Mężczyznę zobaczyłam na ulicy. Jego żonę zobaczyłam w sklepie obok. (I saw his wife in a shop nearby)"
is OK but it wouldn't be if we used the WO that was correct for Ex. 1.

In this case the problem is not so difficult. Let's try to translate those two short texts into English as a whole:
Ex. 1
I went outside yesterday morning. I saw a man in the street.
Ex.2
I spotted a young couple in Warsaw. I saw the man in the street. I saw his wife in a shop nearby.

In English translation it is easy to see, that 'man' in ex. 1 is indefinite noun, and in ex. 2 is definite. We can see it thanks to articles.
In Polish there are no articles but there are still definite and indefinite nouns (noun phrases). And if definiteness is indicated by any syntactic feature, it is indicated by the WO. If some noun is definite, it is a very particular one, it will usually go to the beginning of the sentence. An extreme example:
Na stole jest piwo. - There's a beer on the table.
Piwo jest na stole. - The beer is on the table.
Quite a big change of meaning.

But it doesn't mean that you can always guess definiteness from the WO. Sometimes it's impossible to say if something is or isn't definite.


But in this goddmamn sentence "Największą przeszkodą był Kościół", there are two definite nouns so why the hell can't it be "Kościół był największą przeszkodą"? The only explanation that came to my head is based on the following interpretation of what a sentence is. It's a bit controversial idea but it works for this problem, so let's accept it.

Each sentence is composed of two main parts. You always take some well-known thing and provide some new information about it. When you say "Jack is a plumber" you assume that your listener knows who Jack is and the new information you convey is his profession. So, to use those fancy linguistic words, Jack is the theme / topic of the sentence and the fact that he's a plumber is the rheme / focus /comment . SO, that's basicly all. Some more examples:

1. Jordan ate a green apple - th: Jordan; rh: ate a green apple
2. The green apple was eaten by Jordan - th: The green apple; rh: was eaten by Jordan
Kate likes raw beef - th: Kate; rh: likes raw beef
There is a big album on the shelf: - th: on the shelf; there is a big album
What I told him was that he was a jerk: - th: What I told him; rh: was that he was a jerk.

Of course, in a sentence where there is one definite and one indefinite noun phrase, it's natural that the definite one will be the theme. "The A" is better-known than "a B". The idea of definiteness and the idea of a theme are in some sense similiar.

If you look again at the examples, you will probably notice that the theme tends to be placed in the beginning of the sentence. The only exception I gave is an existential sentence (a 'there is/there are' sentence). In the pair about Jordan and the green apple you can see it very clearly: the passive voice in the second sentence ("The apple was eaten by Jordan") is a form of emphasis. It could be "Jordan ate the apple", but in passive voice the apple gets to the beginning of the sentence and thus, emphasizes the fact that we're talking about the apple, not Jordan. The theme-rheme difference becomes stronger by moving the 'apple' to the front.

In Polish it's the same: the best place for the theme is in the beginning. But in Polish, if I wanted to emphasize that the apple is the theme of the sentence, I'd move it to the front just like that. I really don't need to change the sentence into passive voice: "Jabłko zjadł Jordan" is enough.

So let's approach the church-obstacle sentence in a similar way.

You wrote something about fighting for women's rights. If there was any fighting, we know that there was an obstacle. It's given. Now, you want to identify it - so you want to give the 'new info' about the obstacle. So: the obstacle is the theme of your sentence, the rest is the rheme and the 'biggest obstacle' goes to the front.

Outside of context (so when it's sometimes hard to say which is which), the most natural word order in Polish seems to be the one that has the subject (which is always nominative) in the beginning. But your sentence is a part of a text, so the word order should go according to what this sentence means within this text. Even if it means putting the grammatical subject in the end.

"Kościół był największą przeszkodą" is grammatically correct and it would fit a text where something more is said about the church before. E.g:

They hoped that the church would support them. In the beginning they even believed it but in fact, it was just the contrary. The church was the biggest obstacle.

In English 'the church' goes to the beginning of the sentence (because it's definitely the theme here). Doing this, it becomes the subject of the sentence because that is how English grammar works. In Polish it's also at the beginning "Kościół był największą przeszkodą" but in Polish all the cases and syntactic relationships are the same as in "Największą przeszkodą był kościół"- kościół is the subject, największa przeszkoda is the predicate. The cases are ruled by those things I described in part 1, and they're independent from the WO thing.


*(The analysis is based on the assumption that the context I am giving is the only context known, so please, don't provide any additional context as counter-arguments)
czarnykotThreads: 21
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  Sep 26, 08, 05:50 /  #
Cześć Switezianka!
Gosh! You have been busy! Many thanks for your comprehensive replies concerning the usage of the Instrumental case. They will take some digesting and a lot of practice will be required to even begin to use the Case correctly. I am sure I will be refering to your answers many times over the following months. But once again, many many thanks for all your time and effort in the provision of such a detailed analysis regarding our friend the Instrumental case.
Pozdrawiam serdecznie, David
SwiteziankaThreads: -
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  Sep 26, 08, 16:53 /  #
When I read such a difficult question and I don't know the answer, I don't regain piece of mind until I think up the answer. So, in fact, I solved the problem for my own satisfaction.

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