How Many Jewish Holocausts were there anyway?Why the Numbers NEVER ADD UP

Marek:

Darius and the rest,

Indeed 'uniqueness' is a well-worn expression, indeed, as Disraeli himself put it, "There are lies, there are damned lies, and there are statistics!". The issue however is not DO THE STATS ADD UP???, but more, WHY WAS SOMETHING ON SUCH A SCALE EVER PERMITTED??!!......by decent, supposedly Christian folk?

The answer lies really in several deep failures within the German culture up until (and including!!) that time; the failure of a grassroots Christianity of 'Love Thy Neighbor' to fuse with the burgeoning ideas of human equality propounded by the French Englightenment, i.e. democracy. The failure of the Prussian State to industrialize ever so much earlier than was the case in the German Empire, lagging far behind England, France and the States. The failure of the Catholic Church primarily, to stem the tide of political and cultural antisemitism BEFORE it culminated in ideological/biological antisemitism, e.g. the Jew demonized now as a sort of bacillus and no longer as even human!

The Jew became viewed therefore as a dangerous harbinger of unneeded change, from the handmade to the mass-producing factory, the end of the ease of life hitherto. Jews were seen almost like Republicans are demonized in American nowadays, as fervid, puritanical kill joys, who want to destroy a formerly enjoyed quality of life.

Sadly for the Jews, noone came along to separate the myth from the reality and most Europeans simply jumped on the bandwagon of hate

poczta	Sep 25, 08, 11:05 / #
In 1989 the plaque at the Aushwitz Museum was removed with the "4 Million" Jews murdered there. It was replace with a new plaque staing that "One Million" Jews died at Aushwtz. So if you do simple math ( 4 million -1 million = 3 million right so why has not the Official Six Million figure been adjusted to Three Million Jews being Murdered? Also if you research the Official Jewish Census before the Second World War and then compare it to the Official Jewish Census taken after the Second Worl War you will leasrn that the Jewish Population Increased during the War. Mind you both Census were Taken by Official Jewish Organizations. Tell me just how many Jewish "6 Million Holocausts" were there altogether? We have the Jewish "6 Million Holocaust" of World War II. Then there is the Jewish "6 Million" Jewish Holocaust" of World War I. Then lets not forget the Jewish "6 Billion Holocaust of 69 to 71 A.D.? The one where the Talmud states that the Romans murdered "6 Billion" Israelite or Jews and where the rivers ran red for days weeks with the blood of Jews. Tell me how that could happen since the World Population passed the 6 Billion mark just not too long ago? Also while you are at it please explain. How could the total land area of the Biblical Israel coul hold a total Jewish 6 Billion Jews? They would in that case have to be 4 inches tall in height to fit "6 Billion people into that land area of Israel? Most of all can you explain as how could the talmud arrive at a figure of "6 Billion Jews" when the Roman Census of that time states that there was a Grand Total of "16 Million" Roman subjects residing in all of the borders of the Roman Empire? While you are at it please explain as to how could Rome with "16 Million" people murder "6 Billion" Jews in that Roman Provine of Israel? The Israelits must have been very bad warriors or fighters or must have been very small people to be murdered like insects? Please explain this for I fail to understand this altogether? please enlighten me if you could be so kind?

Shawn_H	Sep 25, 08, 11:22 / #
poczta: They would in that case have to be 4 inches tall in height to fit "6 Billion people into that land area of Israel? You raise a very interesting point. Maybe the corrected name of Lilliput should replace the Name Israel, and Jerusalem should be Mildendo.

loco polacoThreads: 3 Posts: 421 Joined: Aug 5, 08	Sep 25, 08, 11:42 / #
because not all 3 mil of jews were killed at oswiecim. the other 3 mil of people killed at concentration camps were poles.

celinskiThreads: 83 Posts: 2,800 Joined: Nov 14, 07	Edited by: celinski Sep 25, 08, 12:30 / #
I found this break down I just wish the sorce was listed. http://answers.yahoo.com/question/index?qid=20080402092640AAgcjuc

jonniThreads: 26 Posts: 4,181 Joined: Nov 27, 07	Sep 25, 08, 18:58 / #
celinski: I found this break down I just wish the sorce was listed. Try this one: http://www.nizkor.org/features/techniques-of-denial/ I understand the the Holocaust Memorial at Yad Vashem (where so many Poles are commemorated for saving lives) has the names of at least half of the victims.

mishka	Sep 25, 08, 20:02 / #
Now that is good to learn that you have found that out about that site. So please do a little research and see if you can find any sites that deal with Jews saving Polish Lives in the GULAGS or from extermination at the hands of the Judeo-Communist Social Experiment of the SOVIET UNION? Never forget that over three million Poles were murdered between 1939 to 1945 in the Vast Judeo-Communist Concentration Camp of the USSR and Poland. But let us not also forget the Polish Holocaust in the Western Territories of the Soviet Union that tookplace before the Jewish Holocaust of World War II or the Ukrainian Holocaust of Starvation of the thirties. But the Polish Holocaust where all of western Soviet Union was ethnically cleansed of Poles as the Judeo Communists referred to Poles as Spies because their Polish brothers defeated the Judeo-Bolshevik Onslaught on Poland and Europe as a whole. . No one knows of this even though the Russians know of this and are ashamed of acknowledging this and it is swept under the rug. This is not permitted in be mentioned in the west about the polish suffering or ethnic cleansing and extermination of as a people.

z_dariusThreads: 22 Posts: 5,091 Joined: Oct 18, 07	Sep 25, 08, 21:12 / #
poczta: Why the Numbers NEVER ADD UP That is simply a result accrued interest ;)

MarekThreads: 4 Posts: 1,120 Joined: Feb 15, 07	Sep 26, 08, 10:08 / #
In the end though, is it really about the numbers?? Hardly. It's about the uniqueness of the act itself, both morally and philosophically.

z_dariusThreads: 22 Posts: 5,091 Joined: Oct 18, 07	Sep 26, 08, 10:32 / #
Marek: In the end though, is it really about the numbers?? Hardly. It's about the uniqueness of the act itself, both morally and philosophically. In what way was the act unique?

KilklineThreads: 3 Posts: 894 Joined: Jul 23, 07	Sep 26, 08, 10:41 / #
z_darius: In what way was the act unique? The methodical use of industrial techniques to commit genocide.

KilklineThreads: 3 Posts: 894 Joined: Jul 23, 07	Sep 26, 08, 10:47 / #
Somerled: It isn't about the numbers. Its about integrity. When the numbers don't add up then the integrity of those telling the story is damaged. True. its one of those instances where the truth is awful enough without the figures being massaged.

SomerledThreads: 6 Posts: 106 Joined: May 31, 07	Sep 26, 08, 11:18 / #
z_darius: After all, carpet bombing of towns and villages is an industrial technique. Dresden comes to mind. No doubt, Jews did not have a monopoly on suffering during WWII.

Bratwurst BoyThreads: 11 Posts: 14,563 Joined: Apr 2, 07	Edited by: Bratwurst Boy Sep 26, 08, 11:18 / #
I don't think it's about a real "uniqueness" too... I don't think there is much difference between being hacked to death with a shovel, shot with a bullet or gassed (for the victim that is). But the holocaust is central for Israels founding, developing and surviving. As long as Israel doesn't feel secure Jews around the world will hark on their specialness as a people and suffering to get attention, sympathy, help and support. "Never again!" being the key word. And I can't blame them actually.... But they should be aware of that after 60somewhat years and Israel not being the epithome of a sympathic country with their behaviour in the ME it get's stale and maybe even not so helpful anymore...just a thought...

z_dariusThreads: 22 Posts: 5,091 Joined: Oct 18, 07	Sep 26, 08, 11:36 / #
Bratwurst Boy: ut the holocaust is central for Israels founding, developing and surviving. As long as Israel doesn't feel secure Jews around the world will hark on their specialness as a people and suffering to get attention, sympathy, help and support. "Never again!" being the key word. And I can't blame them actually.... You are correct. Jewish victimhood is unique to Jews. Polish to Poles. Indian to Indians. None of the above is unique on a global scale.

SomerledThreads: 6 Posts: 106 Joined: May 31, 07	Sep 26, 08, 10:42 / #
poczta: Please explain this for I fail to understand this altogether? please enlighten me if you could be so kind? Magic Marek: In the end though, is it really about the numbers?? Hardly. It's about the uniqueness of the act itself, both morally and philosophically. It isn't about the numbers. Its about integrity. When the numbers don't add up then the integrity of those telling the story is damaged.

z_dariusThreads: 22 Posts: 5,091 Joined: Oct 18, 07	Sep 26, 08, 11:02 / #
Kilkline: The methodical use of industrial techniques to commit genocide. The industrial techniques varied throughout the ages, and if someone did not use Zyklon B a few hundred of a few thousand years ago it wasn't because they wouldn't want to. They simply did not have it then and there were no indsutrial techniques in this area of human activity. The Spanish killed natives with the little of what they had available to them. Germans exterminated Prussians with what was top of the line industrial technology of the times. The same with Turks who killed plenty, or Jews who exterminated entire tribes and cities. Even during WW2, Jewish suffering was not unique. They were just a small percentage of all who perished by means of industrial techniques. After all, carpet bombing of towns and villages is an industrial technique. And Jews they were not the only ones who got themselves on the list of ethnicities/nations who were to be completely wiped out from the face of this planet. I see very little that is fundamentally unique in the holocaust.

MarekThreads: 4 Posts: 1,120 Joined: Feb 15, 07	Sep 26, 08, 11:46 / #
Darius and the rest, Indeed 'uniqueness' is a well-worn expression, indeed, as Disraeli himself put it, "There are lies, there are damned lies, and there are statistics!". The issue however is not DO THE STATS ADD UP???, but more, WHY WAS SOMETHING ON SUCH A SCALE EVER PERMITTED??!!......by decent, supposedly Christian folk? The answer lies really in several deep failures within the German culture up until (and including!!) that time; the failure of a grassroots Christianity of 'Love Thy Neighbor' to fuse with the burgeoning ideas of human equality propounded by the French Englightenment, i.e. democracy. The failure of the Prussian State to industrialize ever so much earlier than was the case in the German Empire, lagging far behind England, France and the States. The failure of the Catholic Church primarily, to stem the tide of political and cultural antisemitism BEFORE it culminated in ideological/biological antisemitism, e.g. the Jew demonized now as a sort of bacillus and no longer as even human! The Jew became viewed therefore as a dangerous harbinger of unneeded change, from the handmade to the mass-producing factory, the end of the ease of life hitherto. Jews were seen almost like Republicans are demonized in American nowadays, as fervid, puritanical kill joys, who want to destroy a formerly enjoyed quality of life. Sadly for the Jews, noone came along to separate the myth from the reality and most Europeans simply jumped on the bandwagon of hate.

DekameronThreads: 1 Posts: 289 Joined: Sep 11, 08	Sep 26, 08, 11:50 / #
Marek: Darius and the rest, Indeed 'uniqueness' is a well-worn expression, indeed, as Disraeli himself put it, "There are lies, there are damned lies, and there are statistics!". The issue however is not DO THE STATS ADD UP???, but more, WHY WAS SOMETHING ON SUCH A SCALE EVER PERMITTED??!!......by decent, supposedly Christian folk? The answer lies really in several deep failures within the German culture up until (and including!!) that time; the failure of a grassroots Christianity of 'Love Thy Neighbor' to fuse with the burgeoning ideas of human equality propounded by the French Englightenment, i.e. democracy. The failure of the Prussian State to industrialize ever so much earlier than was the case in the German Empire, lagging far behind England, France and the States. The failure of the Catholic Church primarily, to stem the tide of political and cultural antisemitism BEFORE it culminated in ideological/biological antisemitism, e.g. the Jew demonized now as a sort of bacillus and no longer as even human! The Jew became viewed therefore as a dangerous harbinger of unneeded change, from the handmade to the mass-producing factory, the end of the ease of life hitherto. Jews were seen almost like Republicans are demonized in American nowadays, as fervid, puritanical kill joys, who want to destroy a formerly enjoyed quality of life. Sadly for the Jews, noone came along to separate the myth from the reality and most Europeans simply jumped on the bandwagon of hate All you can brag about is the holocaust, typical Jew, you attempt to hog and capitalize on holocaust as a business. Your every word fills me with disgust.

celinskiThreads: 83 Posts: 2,800 Joined: Nov 14, 07	Sep 26, 08, 11:50 / #
z_darius: Polish to Poles Jan. 31, 2008 at long last, Victims of Communism Memorial Foundation http://www.victimsofcommunism.org/photogallery/gallery.php?id=301

KilklineThreads: 3 Posts: 894 Joined: Jul 23, 07	Sep 26, 08, 11:55 / #
z_darius: The industrial techniques varied throughout the ages, and if someone did not use Zyklon B a few hundred of a few thousand years ago it wasn't because they wouldn't want to. They simply did not have it then and there were no indsutrial techniques in this area of human activity. The Spanish killed natives with the little of what they had available to them. Germans exterminated Prussians with what was top of the line industrial technology of the times. The same with Turks who killed plenty, or Jews who exterminated entire tribes and cities. There is a difference between what people would like to do and would they have the capability to do. Saying that what the Germans did wasnt unique because others would have done it if they'd had the capability misses the point- namely that the Germans did it. No one else did or has done it. Also the instances you've mentioned are cases where mass murder occured in the pursuit of a military or territorial aim. Apart from the Holocaust I cant think of another instance where a nation has specifically set out to liquidate a race for no purpose other than ideology.

MarekThreads: 4 Posts: 1,120 Joined: Feb 15, 07	Sep 26, 08, 11:56 / #
Jeszcze głupstwo nie zginęło, Panie Cielinski! Can't choose which frightens me as much, your arrogance or your ignorance.

DekameronThreads: 1 Posts: 289 Joined: Sep 11, 08	Sep 26, 08, 12:02 / #
Marek: Can't choose which frightens me as much, your arrogance or your ignorance. Cant say what angers me more your bigotry or the fact that you're so disgustingly self centered.

Bratwurst BoyThreads: 11 Posts: 14,563 Joined: Apr 2, 07	Edited by: Bratwurst Boy Sep 26, 08, 12:02 / #
Kilkline: No one else did or has done it. How about disease infected blankets for the natives? Study human past and you will find countless examples of mass murder and genocide. The big difference I will give you is the scale of paper work, films and other evidences there is about it. Most other genocided people in the past are hardly remembered... URL

DekameronThreads: 1 Posts: 289 Joined: Sep 11, 08	Edited by: Dekameron Sep 26, 08, 12:05 / #
Kilkline: where a nation has specifically set out to liquidate a race for no purpose other than ideology Rome against carthage, Huns against Ruthenians, France against the protestant sects, Jews against the native nations of Galilea, Egypt against Hittites, Russians against cossacks. There's a bazzilion instances. Edit. You are either another Jew or simply brainwashed, why didnt you mention Poles or Russians ? We were cleansed for ideological reasons as well but hey JEWS!!!!!11HOLOCAUST!!!!1111 Seriously i despise all this.

MarekThreads: 4 Posts: 1,120 Joined: Feb 15, 07	Edited by: Marek Sep 26, 08, 12:10 / #
Upon a visit years ago, first, to the lovely town of Dachau (once a premier artists' colony, known throughout Germany and the rest of Europe as 'The Dachauer School) and then, of course, to the sobering, if sanitized, Camp memorial site, I enountered an older woman sitting beside a charming store front. I went up to her and in Bavarian-accented German casually asked the way to the site. "Why the hell do you people always have to remind us!!!!" she screamed, never answering my question. "Because you people will never let us forget!!", I yelled back. And that is the core of the problem; "moving on" is a two-way thoroughfare. No Jew in his or her right mind wishes to remain mired in the past, yet if the traffic jam of forgetfulness hinders passage, well, there's always honking the virtual horn-:)-:)!!!

Bratwurst BoyThreads: 11 Posts: 14,563 Joined: Apr 2, 07	Edited by: Bratwurst Boy Sep 26, 08, 12:13 / #
Dekameron: You are either another Jew or simply brainwashed, why didnt you mention Poles or Russians ? We were cleansed for ideological reasons as well but hey JEWS!!!!!11HOLOCAUST!!!!1111 I agree... URL Genocide is the deliberate and systematic destruction, in whole or in part, of an ethnic, racial, religious, or national group. The bone of contention here as I see it is....the Jews need the Holocaust more! Poland is not really endangered and fighting for their real survival, whereas the future for Israel (if nothing drastically is going to change) does look quite bleak....

KilklineThreads: 3 Posts: 894 Joined: Jul 23, 07	Sep 26, 08, 12:15 / #
Bratwurst Boy: How about disease infected blankets for the natives? my answer- Kilkline: Also the instances you've mentioned are cases where mass murder occured in the pursuit of a military or territorial aim. Apart from the Holocaust I cant think of another instance where a nation has specifically set out to liquidate a race for no purpose other than ideology. Dekameron: Rome against carthage, Huns against Ruthenians, France against the protestant sects, Jews against the native nations of Galilea, Egypt against Hittites, Russians against cossacks. There's a bazzilion instances. The instances you've mentioned were done for either military or political reasons. The exception is perhaps the Protestants in France and even here there were no instances of abbatoirs for people, no long term goals of invading other countries and liquidating their Protestant populations.

DekameronThreads: 1 Posts: 289 Joined: Sep 11, 08	Edited by: Dekameron Sep 26, 08, 12:20 / #
Marek: And that is the core of the problem; "moving on" is a two-way thoroughfare. No Jew in his or her right mind wishes to remain mired in the past, yet if the traffic jam of forgetfulness hinders passage, well, there's always honking the virtual horn-:)-:)!!! Seriously i dont care, you once said i'm indifferent, yes i am, i do not give a crap about any jewish woman, man or child that died because its in the PAST. In fact we should ostracize you sorry bastards for ever attempting to capitilize on holocaust, and when someone calls you out on it you flithy paracites cry Anti-semit !!1111 Bullturd, you victimize yourself to get money attention and to play on guilt you create in other people for your benefit, move on or keep moaning about your precious holocaust but do it in the 4 walls of your house dont paint it everywhere you go. Also i'm mad at Germans not because of WW2, Poland will keep disliking Germany for another 20 or 30 years and then we'll get over it and have a beer but Jews will just keep moaning and ******** and feeling sorry for yourselves while asking for money and support and the world apparently does not have guts to tell you to shove it. Bratwurst Boy: does look quite bleak.. Thats what you get for carving out a country in a place people already live in.

Bratwurst BoyThreads: 11 Posts: 14,563 Joined: Apr 2, 07	Edited by: Bratwurst Boy Sep 26, 08, 12:22 / #
Kilkline: The instances you've mentioned were done for either military or political reasons What do you think the german reasons were? What do you know about anti-jewish propaganda??? The Jews were seen as a main enemy....conspiring against the good german people, sucking the life blood out of the good hard worker with all their influence and money business, a disease which must be cured to retain a healthy folks body.... THEY WERE THE ENEMY! The "Judea boycotts Germany" call from the US Jews wasn't exactly helping... Stalin murdered a whole caste of people....no religion or ethnie but a caste of people he highly mistrusted...millions...more than the jewish holocaust and he used quite similiar reasons to rally his helpers behind him. You can search and find little way outs as much as you want but actually I distrust people who put the holocaust on a podest as something that never happened before because that implies it will never happen again....but boy...you couldn't be more wrong!

MarekThreads: 4 Posts: 1,120 Joined: Feb 15, 07	Sep 26, 08, 12:24 / #
Right on, Kilkline!! Jews aren't fighting for "monopoly" of the truth, but merely the acceptance of the indisputable horror of tyranny of the worst order, actions which can never be condoned, much less comprehended, except as the basest in mankind, basness allowed by the inability of those who could help, to nip the problem in the bud early enough. Kilkline proves, one need not be a Jew to understand the truth of the Shoah, only someone with brains-:)