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Memories gone, Memory disorder, Jewish seek recognition in West Ukraine


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celinskiThreads: 83
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Joined: Nov 14, 07
  Sep 13, 08, 08:14 /  #
Here are two articles with a new twist, "The Poles, made unwelcome, soon left." No word as to where Poles left to, just had feelings of being "unwelcome".

"The 12,000 people who live in the western Ukrainian town of Buchach are mostly Ukrainians. Probably, they consider that fact both unremarkable and altogether proper, but for many centuries Buchach was partly Ukrainian and partly not. Many Poles also lived there. Early in the 20th century, Jews made up half the population."


"It was Polish territory until 1939, when the Soviets (following
their agreement with Germany) annexed it as part of their Ukrainian republic. The Poles, made unwelcome, soon left. Then the Germans came and most Jews were murdered by Nazis and their Ukrainian collaborators."

http://www.nationalpost.com/story.html?id=788084&p=1

Memory disorder

It was Polish territory until 1939, when the Soviets (following their agreement with Germany) annexed it as part of their Ukrainian republic. The Poles, made unwelcome, soon left. Then the Germans came and most Jews were murdered by Nazis and their Ukrainian collaborators.

The Polish government is similarly investigating the leaders of the so-called Bielski partisans, a band of over 1,000 Jews who hid and fought in the forests of eastern Poland (today Belarus). The still incomplete investigation by Poland's Institute of National Remembrance into the group began in the wake of the controversy over Polish complicity in the Holocaust stirred up by the books of historian Jan Gross and a recent report by the investigative body suggesting the Bielski partisans may have been present at a massacre of Polish civilians. The pending release of a new Hollywood film celebrating the Bielski partisans as heroes (Edward Zwick's "Defiance," due out in December), is sure to keep the topic alive.

haaretz.com/hasen/spages/1019882.html

yehudiThreads: 1
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Joined: Jul 27, 08
  Sep 22, 08, 12:45 /  #
The Bielski partisans were heroes. Read their memoirs and you'll agree.
Grzegorz_Threads: 81
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Joined: Nov 16, 06
  Sep 22, 08, 12:48 /  #
F. murderers and war criminals, may they burn in hell.
PiorunThreads: -
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Joined: Nov 11, 07
Edited by: Piorun   Sep 22, 08, 13:23 /  #
yehudi:

The Bielski partisans were heroes. Read their memoirs and you'll agree.


Recent Stories Say the Bielskis Were Just Bandits and old habits don’t die. Fast forward to 2007 and it’s A Same old Story. The youngest of the brothers Aron Bielski (Aron Bell) supposed war hero turns up in Palm Beach, Florida. It seems he befriended 93 yr old women, took her to Poland, and stashed her in a nursing home, and then he returned to Florida. Next, he drained her bank account of $300,000, and when the police find out, he is arrested for kidnapping. Once a gangster always a gangster even at the age of 80.

War hero 'stole from Holocaust survivor'

Of course this is a Jewish source others are not as kind.
McCoyThreads: 46
Posts: 1,756
Joined: Jul 3, 08
  Sep 22, 08, 13:39 /  #
yehudi:

The Bielski partisans were heroes.

some say that ss soldiers were heroes too
DekameronThreads: 1
Posts: 289
Joined: Sep 11, 08
  Sep 22, 08, 18:16 /  #
yehudi:

The Bielski partisans were heroes. Read their memoirs and you'll agree.

Yes memoirs written by themselves whereas POLES claim they were criminals which frankly they were and as such they deserved a bullet.
Bratwurst BoyThreads: 11
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Joined: Apr 2, 07
Edited by: Bratwurst Boy   Sep 23, 08, 04:44 /  #
Dekameron:

Yes memoirs written by themselves whereas POLES claim they were criminals which frankly they were and as such they deserved a bullet.


Hmmm....accounts really seem to differ!

URL

...The group's commander was the older brother, Tuvia Bielski (1906-1987), a Polish army veteran and graduate of a Zionist youth movement. Tuvia "would rather save one old Jewish woman than kill ten German soldiers".[1]
He sent emissaries to infiltrate the ghettos in the area, recruiting new members to join the group in the Naliboki Forest. Hundreds of men, women, and children eventually found their way to the Bielski camp, which ultimately numbered over a thousand inhabitants, both civilians and fighters....


Doesn't sound like "bullet deserving war criminals"...

Bielski partisans are accused of war crimes (mostly armed robbery) on the neighbouring population; particularly for involvement in the massacre of 128 people commited by the Soviet partisans from Naliboki Forest in the Polish town of Naliboki in 1943.[5] The investigation into the Naliboki case is being carried out by the Polish IPN institute.[5] Members of the brigade and other historians vehemently deny any involvement in the massacre, citing the fact that the partisans did not arrive in the area until several months after the event took place.[6]

As revealed, for example, by interviews in the film The Bielski Brothers: Jerusalem in the Woods, the Bielski Partisans felt it necessary for their survival to be ruthless. Collaborators who turned in partisans to Nazi authorities were executed after cursory investigation.
A group of German soldiers who surrendered to the Bielskis were summarily executed, presumably because there was no way for the partisans to keep prisoners in the field, but also because many partisans, who had suffered the loss of family at the hands of the Nazis, frankly sought revenge.
Ruthlessness sometimes extended to their own: In at least one instance, Zus Bielski executed one of his own officers for leaving a civilian behind, because the Bielski partisans maintained a non-negotiable policy of protecting Jewish civilians.

Grzegorz_Threads: 81
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  Sep 23, 08, 04:50 /  #
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Naliboki_massacre

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Koniuchy_massacre
BorrkaThreads: 49
Posts: 770
Joined: Apr 25, 08
  Sep 23, 08, 04:53 /  #
Actually I don't like Germans lecturing us about details of the Polish - Jewish relationship.
Grzegorz_Threads: 81
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Joined: Nov 16, 06
  Sep 23, 08, 05:02 /  #
And I preffer Germans, who know what is right and wrong over Jews, who would never admit that any Jew could do anything wrong, only Goys are bad...
Bratwurst BoyThreads: 11
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Joined: Apr 2, 07
  Sep 23, 08, 07:07 /  #
You both love me...admit it! :):):)
Bratwurst BoyThreads: 11
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  Sep 23, 08, 07:37 /  #


But thanks for the infos....here in Germany you hear nothing about that kind of history..
yehudiThreads: 1
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Joined: Jul 27, 08
  Sep 23, 08, 11:05 /  #
The URLs you gave are not about the Bielski partisans but about the Kovno and Vilna partisans. But the point is the same. The Jewish partisans in the forests were not fighters attacking from hiding while being supported by villagers. They had the civilians (old and young and sick) with them in the forest with no support from locals. On the contrary, they were often betrayed and the AK also fought against them. So the only way they could survive was to loot, and the only way to deter betrayal was to exact a heavy price and instill fear in the populace.
McCoyThreads: 46
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Joined: Jul 3, 08
  Sep 23, 08, 11:34 /  #
it's such a painful truth that % of bastards among jews is just the same as among members of other nations :(
PiorunThreads: -
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Joined: Nov 11, 07
  Sep 23, 08, 12:46 /  #
yehudi:

They had the civilians (old and young and sick) with them in the forest with no support from locals.

I’m glad that at the very least you are able to admit that Jews have committed bad deeds. This pathetic excuse given by you that they did it in order to survive is exactly the bone of contention between us, according to your logic every Pole supposed to sacrifice his family and himself to save a Jew otherwise he simply betrayed you because he is an anti-Semite, but when the Jews slaughtered entire villages they did it to survive. So what’s the excuse for the commie Jews? It couldn’t be because of the Ideology, hatred for the Poles or simply because they were bad people now could it?

yehudi:

So the only way they could survive was to loot, and the only way to deter betrayal was to exact a heavy price and instill fear in the populace.

I see this way of thinking is still alive and well in present day Israel against the Palestinian people because they are all out to get the Jew, how pathetic.
Grzegorz_Threads: 81
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  Sep 23, 08, 14:08 /  #
Bratwurst Boy:

here in Germany you hear nothing about that kind of history..


In Poland that has never been taught at schools either. In commie times no because such people were working for Soviets and now no because Jews would get offended and... call us anti-semits (like they don't do that now... ).

But massive Jewish collaboration with Soviets is well known here. Obviously they either deny or find some excuses like yehudi guy does here. Jews simply have no limits to exploit death of even single Jews during WW2 and to give bad image the whole nations for such things but when Jews did something wrong (and the list is not short) then they do everything they can to hide or deny that. Like one Jew wrote to me on another internet forum: "If Jews killed anybody then It means that they (those killed) must have been bad people". No kidding.

BTW They not only deny such things but they even make heroes out of criminals. There's now a movie being made in Hollywood about the Bielskis' gang, which is responsible for Naliboki massacre and many other crimes. They are of course going to be portrated as great warriors doing nothing else fighting nazis and protecting innocent.
Bratwurst BoyThreads: 11
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Edited by: Bratwurst Boy   Sep 23, 08, 14:59 /  #
Well....I would expect only the worst coming out of Hollywood...it's really on a tight leash! :(
MarekThreads: 4
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Joined: Feb 15, 07
  Sep 23, 08, 15:21 /  #
It's both saddening beyond measure as well as more than a touch embarrassing when Israeli Jews refuse to admit that when demonizing ALL Palestinians as the 'evil other' who must be destroyed, the former in fact become the thing they despise most; the evil other.

More disturbing still, along with a tendency among many non-Israeli Jews, especially from the US, to argue that the ends justify the means when it comes to Israel using revenge tactics against the Arabs, are often strangely silent when other genocides occur in the world, e.g. the Rwanda massacres during the 90's.

As a Jew, I must constantly remind my brethren, particularly the ultra-orthodox, that EVERY Jew is of equal merit as a such and that all of us are connected, be we Reform Chanukah bushers or Chasids!! Indeed, we all wound up in the same ashrays. Hitler and his gang made no distinction, why should Jews?

Finally, the Poles scarcely have the monopoly on historical myopia.
Grzegorz_Threads: 81
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  Sep 23, 08, 15:31 /  #
Bratwurst Boy:


Well....I would expect only the worst coming out of Hollywood...it's really on a tight leash! :(


Here is that thing:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Defiance_(2008_film)

But the times when such things could go on without any reaction are gone. This time millions will hear about the real history. Personally I wouldn't mind to leave all such things alone but that must be two way street.
SzymonThreads: 1
Posts: 7
Joined: Sep 23, 08
Edited by: Szymon   Sep 23, 08, 16:55 /  #
Durring Polands occupation. Russians, Germans and ealier Austrians used to make resistance weaker by provoking Ukrainians aganinst Poles, Jews against Ukrianinas and Poles. Ukrainians and Poles against Jews. Sometimes were successful.
lesserThreads: 7
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Edited by: lesser   Sep 23, 08, 17:07 /  #
Majority of the Jews preferred the Germans, spoke Yiddish. Plenty of them worked (at home and aboard) against Poland regaining independence after WWI. Later many of them followed communist propaganda which finally lead to Poland under Soviet boot. Thus animosity between both groups needed to occur.
SzymonThreads: 1
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Edited by: Szymon   Sep 23, 08, 17:18 /  #
Majority of the Jews between WWI and WWII didn't vote on the communists. Provide links and support your statements.
lesserThreads: 7
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Edited by: lesser   Sep 23, 08, 17:24 /  #
Szymon:

Majority of the Jews between WWI and WWII didn't vote on the communists. Provide links and support your statements.


Firstly show me where did I make such statement?
SzymonThreads: 1
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Edited by: Szymon   Sep 23, 08, 17:36 /  #
lesser:

Firstly show me where did I make such statement?


Firstly first part of my statement is my opinion, second part is adressed to you.

Provide links to support your theory - debate will be more interesting.
SashaThreads: 2
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 Pictures: 1
  Sep 24, 08, 02:24 /  #
Szymon:

Majority of the Jews between WWI and WWII didn't vote on the communists. Provide links and support your statements.


I don't know about Poland but in Russia Jews=communism in the mentioned period. Now they're "democrats" and "liberals" after their "communism" deeply compromised itself.
yehudiThreads: 1
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Edited by: yehudi   Sep 24, 08, 02:58 /  #
Marek:

It's both saddening beyond measure as well as more than a touch embarrassing when Israeli Jews refuse to admit that when demonizing ALL Palestinians as the 'evil other' who must be destroyed, the former in fact become the thing they despise most; the evil other

Marek:

are often strangely silent when other genocides occur in the world, e.g. the Rwanda massacres during the 90's.

Where did that come from? We're talking about the Jewish partizans and you come up with how embarrassed you are by Israel? Revenge tactics? Demonizing all paelstinians who must be destroyed? Who the h*ll said that? And since when were israelies silent about other genocides. Israelis were active in relief for rwanda and are protesting the darfut genocide all the time. Boy are you mixed up!
MarekThreads: 4
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Joined: Feb 15, 07
  Sep 24, 08, 07:33 /  #
Mixed up????! I never said Israelis were silent, but rather the majority of 'non-Israeli Jews' (stated clearly in my post) who spoke up little, if at all, in regard to Rwanda etc.

The point I was making within the framework of this discussion thread, is that memory is both selective as well as collective and that there remains blatant hypocrisy on both sides of the argument-:)-:)
yehudiThreads: 1
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  Sep 24, 08, 08:26 /  #
Marek:

but rather the majority of 'non-Israeli Jews'

I stand corrected - at least about that comment. Although I think Jews outside of Israel are also pretty vocal about Darfur and were about Rwanda too.
But get this straight: Israelis on the whole don't use that kind of rhetoric of "all palesitnians are the evil other who must be destroyed". First you state it as if it's fact and then you say how bad it is. But it's just not true. You can walk in the street here and see palestinians all the time. They're not some faceless enemy that we demonize. They live next door and we know eachother pretty well. As individuals we have no problem with them. As a national movement we do. But that 's for a different thread.
MarekThreads: 4
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  Sep 24, 08, 10:03 /  #
I too stand corrected, if only to backpeddle a bit; ALL Israeli Jews don't demonize, but American-Jewish rhetoric/propaganda certainly elicits the impression that MOST do-:)

The failures and failings of our press, I duly apologize!
PiorunThreads: -
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Edited by: Piorun   Sep 24, 08, 10:04 /  #
yehudi:

But it's just not true. You can walk in the street here and see palestinians all the time. They're not some faceless enemy that we demonize. They live next door and we know eachother pretty well. As individuals we have no problem with them.

Look around you a bit closer and see the world or at least your own country Israel for what it is. It’s fine with me if that’s what you want to believe, perhaps you don’t see soldiers on the street, and the walls all around you or you can’t smell the stench of gun powder in the air. Living in you luxurious gated community where only Jews can live kind of puts you out of touch with a Palestinian living in the same state as your neighbor.

You see Palestinians all around you (what you think about them God only knows), yet you never gave a thought how did he get there? (To work that is), how many check points did he had to go through? How many times today have he been harassed and insulted by a young punk soldier? (because of his nationality and the day barely started), or after he finishes work to go back to his family how many obstacles he must cross? How many check points? How many times will he be pulled over because he has a different color plates on his car? (If he has a car that is). Will he and his family sleep peacefully tonight? Or will he have to leave in the middle of the night? Because his apartment building is being raised by Israeli bulldozer. (In a better scenario only because his apartment is being checked by the soldiers). Will he and his family live through this night or Israeli rockets will destroy the building he lives in and kill him because of some political enemy of Israel decided to hide there? (Real or Imagined, which by the way he has no knowledge of or dose he give an S**T about either and be called a collateral damage instead of his proper name).

Have you given this much thought? Of course not - you don’t have to go through all that, now do you? It’s not that you do not ask such questions and see what you want to see because of WHO you are (Jewish) but rather because of WHAT kind of individual YOU ARE. Perhaps not, perhaps it’s because living in those circumstances for two or more generations would seem normal to me too. (Oh wait I grew up in communist Poland and contrary to what people might believe seeing soldiers on the streets checking ID did not seem normal).

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