Museum of the history of Polish Jews

celinski wrote:

As far as Russia I feel they have been able to avoid dealing with the past by ruling the people and not letting the truth be spoken. "Katyn" was just part of the full story. IMO it is this part of history that needs to set history straight. I do not feel Ukraine could have carried out the killing without "Soviets" clearing the path.

LukaszThreads: 73 Posts: 2,396 Joined: Sep 1, 07	Edited by: Lukasz Mar 24, 08, 11:01 / #
http://www.jewishmuseum.org.pl/index.php?lang=en

LukaszThreads: 73 Posts: 2,396 Joined: Sep 1, 07	Edited by: Lukasz Mar 24, 08, 11:31 / #
espana wrote: what is wrong with the old one? Ok we have very interesting discussions here ... about Jews and so on. Reality in Poland looks much diferent. Jews in Poland is 1000 years history. Reality of our relationships looks much diferent than on this forum. as to your pictures ... I don't know if Holocaust organised by Germans and Concentration camps runed only by Germans, are the best idea to show all aspects of Polish - Jewish relations... not only German-Jewish relations... read link I have posted, Polish Jews have made it clear, why this musem is needed ...

celinskiThreads: 83 Posts: 2,800 Joined: Nov 14, 07	Edited by: celinski Mar 24, 08, 11:33 / #
Why not Catholicmuseums of Holocaust victims? THE MUSEUM OF THE HISTORY OF POLISH JEWS March 13, 2008 - B-318 Rayburn House Office Building Unofficial Transcript SMITH: Because I know our distinguished witnesses will speak to all of the particulars about this very, very important museum. But I do want to say the $5 million, it is our hope -- which is a modest contribution -- will express in some way, some small way, U.S. heartfelt commitment to not just the museum building, bricks and mortar, but obviously and most importantly to the people it represents. http://www.csce.gov/index.cfm?Fuseaction=ContentRecords.ViewDetail&Con tentRecord_id=415&Region_id=0&Issue_id=0&ContentType=H,B&ContentRecord Type=H&CFID=6983763&CFTOKEN=86063488

LukaszThreads: 73 Posts: 2,396 Joined: Sep 1, 07	Edited by: Lukasz Mar 24, 08, 11:55 / #
celinski wrote: Why not Catholicmuseums of Holocaust victims? We all know that in Poland 6 mln people were killed 3 mln Jews 3 mln of other religion ... This musem is Polish-Jewish project ... and I think that people interested about Polish-Jewish relations should visit not only German Concentration Camps ... so this project is positive ... as to your idea about showing victims I partly share your point of view personaly I don't like playing victim card, I think it is needed to show the facts which have been falsed when we were part of commie world ... when we have been wests enemies (we wanted or not the fact is that we had to be silent), in this times history have been falsed. Now we hear about 10 000 collaborants not about 3 mln Polish people killed in concentration camps (about 3 mln Polish Jews we hear all the time) ... I have been steptical about Polish Jews museum, when I have seen the project and the idea it looks much better.

celinskiThreads: 83 Posts: 2,800 Joined: Nov 14, 07	Mar 24, 08, 12:18 / #
I guess looking at it from the USA with "Holocaust" being every where I look I may be looking at it different. To me I never see other crimes take this much attention.

joepilsudskiThreads: 44 Posts: 2,529 Joined: Apr 27, 07	Edited by: joepilsudski Mar 24, 08, 13:37 / #
Benefactors Bank BPH The British Committee for the Support of the Museum Yaron Bruckner The Foundation for Polish-German Cooperation The German Committee for the Support of the Museum North American Council of the Museum of the History of Polish Jews PKN Orlen The Polonia Aid Foundation Trust, UK The Przezorność Foundation on behalf of Prudential plc. The Rothschild Foundation Europe TP (Telekomunikacja Polska) Group Foundation Weil, Gotshal & Manges, LLP Builders Academy for the Development of Philantrophy in Poland AIG Polska Allianz Poland American International Group Inc. Axel Springer Polska Bank BISE Boeing International Deutsche Bank PBC S.A. Eurozet The GESSEL Law Firm KPMG Kraft Foods The Ronald S. Lauder Foundation LOT Polish Airlines MaxData Edward Phillips Polish American Congress in Northern California Polish Business Roundtable Polish Confederation of Private Employers Lewiatan Robinski & Associates Sp. z o.o. Ronson Development Group The Royal Netherlands Embassy in Poland Rami Ungar WestLB Bank Polska S.A. Sam Zell You have all the major Jewish globalist 'philanthropists', corporations, and foundations involved...Can we possibly get some new postings on this Forum that relate to new Polish developments/projects that don't relate to Jews or George Bush's United States of Dystopia?...are there any new ideas from Poles worth talking about related to Poland's future?...How is the Warsaw Metro progressing?... Are the Poles themselves building anything for their future?...it seems the Jews can get the money and know-how needed to build an elaborate monument to themselves...What about Poles?

LukaszThreads: 73 Posts: 2,396 Joined: Sep 1, 07	Edited by: Lukasz Mar 24, 08, 13:54 / #
joepilsudski wrote: joepilsudski I understand your point of view, I don't think you are right with your posts about somebody runing this world ... Even if you are right, I don't care Poland isn't pretnender to govern this world. We don't care, it is american problem that they go on wars which are not in their business. Personaly as long as it isn't problem for Poland I don't care if Jews, Americans, Chinese or rich people lead our world. All I want is to show history of my country in true light, and make life in Poland more comfortable. I feel Poland should help for poorer countries and support domocracy when it is possible. This museum form Polish point of view is OK ... I don't care who pays for it (on list there is a lot of Polish companies/organisations) Maybe this time we have the same business as people you mentioned. as to your whole activity here (on PF) I doubt you are right ... even of you are right I don't care, we have different aims, we want to have life on the same level as people in USA or UK (even if you are governed by somebody sic!)

celinskiThreads: 83 Posts: 2,800 Joined: Nov 14, 07	Mar 24, 08, 13:58 / #
joepilsudski wrote: All I want is to show history of my country in true light, and make life in Poland more comfortable. In Poland how is the history displayed today?

LukaszThreads: 73 Posts: 2,396 Joined: Sep 1, 07	Edited by: Lukasz Mar 24, 08, 14:23 / #
celinski wrote: In Poland how is the history displayed today? Normaly, as it was. I feel that Jewish society accepted our version of history (I am after lecture of some discussions on Jewish websites and I see some facts like this museum). I think your ideas about adding to Holocaust museum in US part about non Jewish victims is possible.

celinskiThreads: 83 Posts: 2,800 Joined: Nov 14, 07	Mar 24, 08, 14:36 / #
For the most part, in the USA they do not include "Stalin" or "Soviet" crimes with Catholic victims. As most are aware this takes eastern Polands victims out of the picture. With the majority of Poland being Catholic and silenced for so long this was not an issue. Since 1989 it is becoming more of an issue. Any thoughts?

celinskiThreads: 83 Posts: 2,800 Joined: Nov 14, 07	Mar 25, 08, 11:16 / #
My family was in the cattle cars on Feb. 10, 1940. They never were to return to the farm after amnesty was granted. My grandfather joined back in 2nd corps. Prior to this they owned the land but lived with "Jewish" and "Ukrainian" all working the land and sharing the food. When I first learned of what took place in 1941, I had to wonder how my father a Roman Catholic Polish boy grew up without prejudice. He remembers the “Jewish” children being treated badly as do my aunts, as for the family, my grandfather would not let the children behave this way toward others. It was that simple. They lived in peace and the negativity was a survival of the fittest. As my aunt said, “Siberia” did not have a God for one group and many questioned their faith in any God at all.

LukaszThreads: 73 Posts: 2,396 Joined: Sep 1, 07	Edited by: Lukasz Mar 26, 08, 08:04 / #
celinski wrote: celinski I think this is interesting for you ... http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/968351.html BERLIN - Digital copies bearing the names of some 3.5 million people displaced after World War II have been provided to Holocaust memorial groups and museums in the United States, Israel and Poland by a recently opened archive of Nazi-era documents. The International Tracing Service of the International Committee of the Red Cross said Tuesday that it had handed over a third round of documents to the Yad Vashem Memorial in Jerusalem, the U.S. Holocaust Memorial Museum in Washington and the Warsaw-based National Institute of Remembrance.

isthatuThreads: 4 Posts: 1,627 Joined: Jun 8, 07	Mar 28, 08, 07:41 / #
Harry wrote: "Many nationalities other than Poles fought in the Uprising. Most numerous were the Jews." Jews aren't Poles in Polish museums. D'oh....lame brain mistake....the simple fact is that,by 1st of August 44 most of the Jews wernt Polish.....being as the Poles were first into the ghettos they tended to be the first to treblinka.....nothing sinister or anti jewish,just fact.

HarryThreads: 62 Posts: 8,508 Joined: May 2, 07 [Suspended]	Mar 28, 08, 08:10 / #
isthatu wrote: D'oh....lame brain mistake....the simple fact is that,by 1st of August 44 most of the Jews wernt Polish.....being as the Poles were first into the ghettos they tended to be the first to treblinka.....nothing sinister or anti jewish,just fact. So you would entirely agree that Jewish is a nationality (other than Polish)? As a matter of fact, many Polish Jews did fight in the Warsaw Uprising. Some fought in both the Warsaw Ghetto Uprising in '43 and the Warsaw Uprising in '44 (including many of the 348 Jews who escaped from the Gęsiówka sub-camp of Warsaw concentration camp during the August 5 attack by the AK).

LukaszThreads: 73 Posts: 2,396 Joined: Sep 1, 07	Edited by: Lukasz Mar 24, 08, 14:59 / #
celinski wrote: For the most part, in the USA they do not include "Stalin" or "Soviet" crimes with Catholic victims. As most are aware this takes eastern Polands victims out of the picture. With the majority of Poland being Catholic and silenced for so long this was not an issue. I don't know situation in US. celinski wrote: Since 1989 it is becoming more of an issue. Any thoughts? We have dialogue with Russia in this case, Katyn is presented in Russia and their newspapers started to write. "It was as it was ..." Ukraine is more complicated ... we all know that Ukrainian nationalists were first to kill Poles ... not Ukrainian commies ... I think they are not ready for discussion and their reactions are very strange ... 95 % of Polish society want to move forward, only one thing we want is show true history.

celinskiThreads: 83 Posts: 2,800 Joined: Nov 14, 07	Mar 25, 08, 06:37 / #
What year are you referring to with Ukraine nationalists?

LukaszThreads: 73 Posts: 2,396 Joined: Sep 1, 07	Edited by: Lukasz Mar 25, 08, 07:16 / #
celinski wrote: What year are you referring to with Ukraine nationalists? 1939-1947 now we have some businesses to do with Ukraine so I doubt your idea of making form this part of history issue will get support of Polish government ... It is fact that there is something to discusse.

celinskiThreads: 83 Posts: 2,800 Joined: Nov 14, 07	Mar 25, 08, 07:31 / #
I remember reading of a visit between the two countries (Ukraine/Poland) and Ukraine needed to do some work on history where as Poland had done the homework. This was years ago and I would have thought the homework was completed. With NATO membership in the balance and this being Ukraine's chance to flex independence I feel truth is vital for a trusting relationship. As far as Russia I feel they have been able to avoid dealing with the past by ruling the people and not letting the truth be spoken. "Katyn" was just part of the full story. IMO it is this part of history that needs to set history straight. I do not feel Ukraine could have carried out the killing without "Soviets" clearing the path.

LukaszThreads: 73 Posts: 2,396 Joined: Sep 1, 07	Edited by: Lukasz Mar 25, 08, 07:51 / #
celinski wrote: As far as Russia I feel they have been able to avoid dealing with the past by ruling the people and not letting the truth be spoken. "Katyn" was just part of the full story. IMO it is this part of history that needs to set history straight. I do not feel Ukraine could have carried out the killing without "Soviets" clearing the path. Situation on Ukraine durring WWII was complicated. When you look "who was who" there you will notice that Poles were living in towns or were owners of land in vilages. Jews were living in towns or were working for Poles with noble ancestors (Jews were collecting taxes, and working in finance) Ukrainians in western ukraine were lauborers or small farmers. When Germans appeared some Ukrainians noticed that it is the best opportunity to become "owners". Genraly there was more or less like that: Poles and Jews against Ukrianians and Germans. Fightings between Polish resistance and Ukrainians and Germans was something normal. Later when Soviets smashed the Germans, commies told for Poles that this houses are not their anymore and they have 1 hour to leave and that Poland is on west ... so Soviets were "bad" but Ukrianian nationalists were worst ...

celinskiThreads: 83 Posts: 2,800 Joined: Nov 14, 07	Mar 26, 08, 08:53 / #
Lukasz wrote: I think this is interesting for you ... This is where ITS is run out of in the USA. I am trying to get our families stories added to this museum. So far I have not been able to. I was told they are under a mandate and the victim's must be "Jewish" under "Nazi" criminals. I have not given up as I feel not being included here lowers our chances of connecting with loved ones. Check out the link to the museum. As you browse you will see "Stalin's crimes" , "Anders Army", and other important links to all Polands people. http://www.ushmm.org/museum/

LukaszThreads: 73 Posts: 2,396 Joined: Sep 1, 07	Edited by: Lukasz Mar 26, 08, 09:04 / #
I feel that climate changes, and it will be easier to achieve what you want. As I said before, durring communism it was imposilbe to defend our reputation, now we have started to do so and there are some results ... I think in Warszawa you are going to have equal access. as to situation in US I find it as discrimination ... archievs only for Jewish victims no access for non-Jewish victims. Maybe they are so woried because they have taken compensation form Germans for all vicitms ... when we have been under Soviet occupation. Instead of taking compensations for 3 mln Polish JEWSIH victims they have taken for 6 mln Polish citizens ... so you know ... money are on table ...

celinskiThreads: 83 Posts: 2,800 Joined: Nov 14, 07	Mar 26, 08, 09:55 / #
Lukasz wrote: money are on table ... For myself and the majority I know in my group it is not the money. It is our family's history and many are buried in Siberia, Ukraine, Africa, Poland. I have my family from my Grandmothers side that I never met. I would love to find them and ask about her as a child, compare pictures of my children and the realitives in Poland I have yet to locate. You are right it is discrimination directed toward the one's that were unable to speak. Today when it's safe to speak my own country denies me this right.

LukaszThreads: 73 Posts: 2,396 Joined: Sep 1, 07	Mar 26, 08, 17:37 / #
celinski wrote: For myself and the majority I know in my group it is not the money it is 100% true and this is why we are going to get this archives ...

HarryThreads: 62 Posts: 8,508 Joined: May 2, 07 [Suspended]	Edited by: Harry Mar 28, 08, 06:57 / #
celinski wrote: In Poland how is the history displayed today? Why not go and have a look? Go and take a tour of the museum of the Warsaw Uprising, it's widely considered to be the best museum in Warsaw. Have a look at the "Foreign Fighters" display. You'll see a card which says in English "Many nationalities other than Poles fought in the Uprising. Most numerous were the Jews." Jews aren't Poles in Polish museums. Then go and look at the "After the war" display and note how the displays never fail to mention any Jewish roots which a communist had. Communism was an anti-Polish plot by the Jews. If you want a museum to the Catholic victims of Stalin, I suggest that you do what the Jewish community in Poland has done: build a museum yourself.

isthatuThreads: 4 Posts: 1,627 Joined: Jun 8, 07	Mar 28, 08, 08:18 / #
Yes,how many of them were Polish/Jewish though? How many were German/Jewish or other mix? Thats the point Im making where as you seem convinced that there is a need to call all of europes Jews Polish....whats all that about?

HarryThreads: 62 Posts: 8,508 Joined: May 2, 07 [Suspended]	Mar 28, 08, 08:36 / #
isthatu wrote: Thats the point Im making where as you seem convinced that there is a need to call all of europes Jews Polish....whats all that about? My point is that Jewish is not a nationality. Despite the wishes of more than a few Poles, the Jews who fought in the Warsaw Uprising were either Polish or Hungarian or French or Czech etc.

celinskiThreads: 83 Posts: 2,800 Joined: Nov 14, 07	Mar 28, 08, 08:49 / #
In the USA museums they refer to themself's as Jewish Poles.

isthatuThreads: 4 Posts: 1,627 Joined: Jun 8, 07	Mar 28, 08, 09:00 / #
Harry wrote: Hungarian or French or Czech etc. so,quite rightly in the foriegn fighters section then...me thinks your just hair splitting harry....