Where do Polands non Jewish victims go?

Harry wrote:

If the people shipped to Siberia died, Stalin didn't give a crap. But he didn't go out of his way to make sure that those people did die. Better for him to have a nice large slave labour force. Jews however were subject to a policy which very deliberately killed them and which was focussed on their extermination. Heard of the "Final Solution".

Harry wrote:

I know that you and historical fact have never been close but do try and learn a little before you post here.

celinskiThreads: 83 Posts: 2,800 Joined: Nov 14, 07	Mar 19, 08, 08:54 / #
Should "Polands People" that were victim's of "Stalin, Soviets" be included in the "Holocaust"? As Hitler started in the west, Stalin was busy in the east. The two clearly started out on this joint quest to take out Poland. Today we know that there were just as many non Jewish victims as there were Jewish. "Holocaust" has changed into big business with corruption and the victims being used to fatten their own wallets. With Poland's non Jewish free to speak out, do they place documentation in "Holocaust" museum's or start new ones?

Uncle BobThreads: 3 Posts: 96 Joined: Mar 9, 08	Mar 19, 08, 09:01 / #
The wholesale slaughter of all groups, ethnic, religious or other, by the Germans and Russians during WWII should be included in the toll of the 'Holocaust". It was not just Jewish phenomena and they should not hold or claim sole right to it.

Lady in red	Mar 19, 08, 09:06 / #
Uncle Bob wrote: The wholesale slaughter of all groups, ethnic, religious or other, by the Germans and Russians during WWII should be included in the toll of the 'Holocaust". It was not just Jewish phenomena and they should not hold or claim sole right to it. Very well said Uncle Bob. I so agree with you on that. It's about time something was said about this.

celinskiThreads: 83 Posts: 2,800 Joined: Nov 14, 07	Mar 19, 08, 09:30 / #
In the USA I am having a difficult time having the "Holocaust Museums" understand this. They tell me because we are not "Jewish" and it was not "Nazi's". We I refer to for this question are Roman Catholic victim's of "Stalin". Who by the way had more "Polish victim's" than "Hitler" on the same dates.

isthatuThreads: 4 Posts: 1,627 Joined: Jun 8, 07	Mar 19, 08, 09:33 / #
Sorry to demure here,but,I do not think Stalins victims should be lumped in with Hitlers victims.Im afraid that just muddy's the waters. Although history will demonstrate a remarcable level of colusion between the 2 in the period between 17 sept 39 and 22 june 41 in the end these were two seperate crimes commited by two diametricaly opposed psychopaths.

contrabandThreads: - Posts: 7 Joined: Mar 19, 08	Mar 19, 08, 10:22 / #
"The holocaust" is a word used to refer to what happened to the Jews in Europe from 1939 til 1945. What happened to non-Jewish Poles was something else. Get your own word. What's your point, that non-Jews also got killed? OK. Open your own museums.

isthatuThreads: 4 Posts: 1,627 Joined: Jun 8, 07	Mar 19, 08, 10:27 / #
Stoopid schmuk! The holocaust is the term used for ALL of hitlers victims. SHOAH is the term used exclusivly for jewish victims you ignoramous.

Uncle BobThreads: 3 Posts: 96 Joined: Mar 9, 08	Mar 19, 08, 10:31 / #
Holocaust refers to any mass slaughter or reckless destruction of life. The Jews have appropriated this word as their own. You are indeed a stoopid schmuk.

contrabandThreads: - Posts: 7 Joined: Mar 19, 08	Mar 19, 08, 10:35 / #
isthatu wrote: SHOAH is the term used exclusivly for jewish victims you ignoramous. Shoah is just the hebrew word for holocaust. When it has a capital H it refers to one thing only. I didn't see Poles lining up to share the Holocaust when they were loading trains to treblinka. They were busy partying on the "Aryan" side.

MagdalenaThreads: 5 Posts: 1,387 Joined: Aug 15, 07	Edited by: Magdalena Mar 19, 08, 10:40 / #
contraband wrote: They were busy partying on the "Aryan" side. omg, here we go again... I wish I had never been interested in WW2 history, then I might just pass such comments by... on the other hand, I hate feeding trolls. contraband, you are wrong on so many levels that I don't know where to start, so I won't. BTW - you say "I didn't see Poles" - where you personally there? And did you take the train?

polishcanuckThreads: 10 Posts: 583 Joined: Feb 11, 07	Mar 19, 08, 11:06 / #
Well, unfortunately the Holocaust is slowly becoming a Jewish remembrance day. Increasingly, even over the course of my short lifetime, i've been noticing that teachers and books are downplaying the deaths of non-jews by hitler. In some cases they only give the numbers of jews killed and don't bother with the rest. Shame. But jews have the power!

contrabandThreads: - Posts: 7 Joined: Mar 19, 08	Mar 19, 08, 11:26 / #
Uncle Bob wrote: weren't the only people genocidally persecuted during WWII... that others suffered too? Others suffered too. Germans also suffered. So maybe the holocaust memorials should include the names of the poor germans who died too? Maybe the poor christians of jedwabne should be listed on the holocaust memorials. You think it was easy doing all that clubbing? Make your own memorial days, no ones stopping you. you didnt share the holocaust then. dont try to share it now.

z_dariusThreads: 22 Posts: 5,091 Joined: Oct 18, 07	Mar 19, 08, 11:32 / #
contraband wrote: polish christians let the jews know exactly how polish they were. Actually, most Jews isolated themselves form Poles voluntarily. Relatively few spoke Polish, even though their families had lived in Poland for generations.

contrabandThreads: - Posts: 7 Joined: Mar 19, 08	Mar 19, 08, 12:06 / #
z_darius wrote: Actually, most Jews isolated themselves form Poles voluntarily Just my point. Jews were jews and poles were poles. and they were poles apart. (I coudnt help that). we suffered different fates and thats why the holocaust museums dont deal with the nonjews.

contrabandThreads: - Posts: 7 Joined: Mar 19, 08	Mar 19, 08, 10:47 / #
Magdalena wrote: so I won't. So don't. I know that Poles were also getting killed and not just partying and I know that warsaw was blown up. But the germans put all the jews (not the poles) in a ghetto and then exterminated them. They didn't gas polish kids. You didn't find Poles escaping the Aryan side and trying to pass as Jews. Why would that be? and if the germans stopped at killing jews, christian poles would have been ok with that (except for a few good hearts) just like the ukrainians and the lithuanians.

celinskiThreads: 83 Posts: 2,800 Joined: Nov 14, 07	Mar 19, 08, 10:48 / #
contraband wrote: What's your point, that non-Jews also got killed? OK. Open your own museums. What took place in eastern Poland as Hitler was in western in 1939? You didn't see means you choose not to look. While Poland's people of "OTHER" have been silenced for almost 70 years, I think you may have forgotten that this was "Poland's People" reguardless if some feel being "Jewish" makes them choosen.

contrabandThreads: - Posts: 7 Joined: Mar 19, 08	Mar 19, 08, 10:56 / #
celinski wrote: I think you may have forgotten that this was "Poland's People" reguardless if some feel being "Jewish" makes them choosen. We were chosen alright. being jewish meant being "chosen" for gassing. You say "polands people' like there was no difference bwteen jews and catholics. polish christians let the jews know exactly how polish they were. "Poland for the Poles!"

Uncle BobThreads: 3 Posts: 96 Joined: Mar 9, 08	Mar 19, 08, 11:06 / #
Why do you think it is so hard for people of Jewish decent to relenquish their hold on 'The Holocaust', to acknowledge and accept they weren't the only people genocidally persecuted during WWII... that others suffered too?

celinskiThreads: 83 Posts: 2,800 Joined: Nov 14, 07	Edited by: celinski Mar 19, 08, 11:26 / #
contraband wrote: "Poland for the Poles!" polishcanuck wrote: But jews have the power! From what I read the "Jewish" don't the attorney's that take the billions of dollars do. Yes I am glad you understand it was "Poland" before it was taken over by "Communism". I'm sorry you do not see our families bodies, yes we also paid dearly, we are free now to speak the whole truth. At one point in time "Jewish" victims spoke of our families, then compensation and attorneys came into play and "Swiss" accounts, billions unaccounted for and rich attorneys. Even "Jewish" victims were not given a piece of the pie.

z_dariusThreads: 22 Posts: 5,091 Joined: Oct 18, 07	Mar 19, 08, 12:11 / #
contraband wrote: we suffered different fates So tell me, what exactly is the difference between a dead Jew and a dead Pole, both killed by the nazi germans?

contrabandThreads: - Posts: 7 Joined: Mar 19, 08	Mar 19, 08, 12:19 / #
Both dead. both killed by nazis. There were also a lot of russians and serbs killed by the nazis. Any museum about the nazis should mention all those victims. But a museum sepcifically about the Holocaust is about what happened to the jews as part of of a process that started in 1933 where the nazis poisoned all of europe to join them and murder jews as if they were vermin. Every country in europe helped them, including many poles. Even the polish partisans who fought the germans didn't mind the killing of the jews. So trying to "join" the holocaust as if we all were in same boat is just bullsht. Europeans should find a better way to clean their conscience.

z_dariusThreads: 22 Posts: 5,091 Joined: Oct 18, 07	Edited by: z_darius Mar 19, 08, 12:28 / #
contraband wrote: But a museum sepcifically about the Holocaust is about what happened to the jews as part of of a process that started in 1933 Actually, that started much earlier, and with Poles too. contraband wrote: Every country in europe helped them, including many poles. Country? Not really. Poland did not help Nazis in the extermination of Jews. Some Poles did though, as well as some, ironically, Jews. contraband wrote: So trying to "join" the holocaust as if we all were in same boat is just bullsht. Nobody is trying to join any boats, but facts are facts. Both Jews and Poles were to be exterminated as nations. contraband wrote: Europeans should find a better way to clean their conscience. By doing what? By saying there is no suffering like Jewish suffering? My conscience and that of hundreds of millions of Europeans is clear in that respect.

celinskiThreads: 83 Posts: 2,800 Joined: Nov 14, 07	Mar 19, 08, 12:41 / #
Wow, how did I know this would happen when Poland was free to speak. Do you know how many Polish people were killed simply by trying to help the Jewish neighbors? Anyone else see what took place on "Stalin's" orders? 18 million killed and yet you feel your "Jewish" lifes are worth so much more than non Jewish? What happened to Poland in this picture?

HarryThreads: 62 Posts: 8,508 Joined: May 2, 07 [Suspended]	Mar 19, 08, 12:53 / #
celinski wrote: What happened to Poland in this picture? The difference is that Poles, with the exception of small groups such as the officer corps and the AK, were the focus of a Stalinist policy which called for their deaths. If the people shipped to Siberia died, Stalin didn't give a crap. But he didn't go out of his way to make sure that those people did die. Better for him to have a nice large slave labour force. Jews however were subject to a policy which very deliberately killed them and which was focussed on their extermination. Heard of the "Final Solution". I know that you and historical fact have never been close but do try and learn a little before you post here.

celinskiThreads: 83 Posts: 2,800 Joined: Nov 14, 07	Edited by: celinski Mar 19, 08, 12:58 / #
Harry wrote: If the people shipped to Siberia died, Stalin didn't give a crap. Harry wrote: with the exception of small groups such as the officer corps and the AK, were the focus of a Stalinist policy which called for their deaths. This is not true, Both Stalin and Hitler's plan was to kill off Polands people. Small # is also not the truth, more than Jewish victims is closer to the truth. Are you aware that the ones going to Siberia were to be killed but "Stalin" decided to slave them to death. They were never intended to live. There is a misconception of the Holocaust during WWII. Please change your way of thinking, the holocaust was not ONLY the genocide of European Jews, it was the genocide of the ENTIRE polish population. To the Nazis, the Poles were Untermenschen (subhumans) who occupied a land, which was part of the Lebensraum (living space) greatly desired by the superior German race. The ENTIRE Polish Nation was subjected to a program of extermination and enslavement. As Hitler made it clear before the German invasion of Poland in 1939, "The destruction of Poland is our primary task", Be merciless! Be brutal!, It is necessary to proceed with maximum severity, the war is to be a war of annihilation" . Quote from Heinrich Himmler, the man who implemented the German war on the Poles and echoed Hitler's will "all Poles will disappear from the world. It is essential that the great German people should consider it as its major task to destroy all Poles."

HarryThreads: 62 Posts: 8,508 Joined: May 2, 07 [Suspended]	Mar 19, 08, 13:04 / #
celinski wrote: This is not true, Both Stalin and Hitler's plan was to kill off Polands people. Small # is also not the truth, more than Jewish victims is closer to the truth. Are you aware that the ones going to Siberia were to be killed but "Stalin" decided to slave them to death. They were never intended to live. Complete and utter rubbish. You are claiming that Stalin planned to exterminate the population of Poland. Just think about that statement for a moment. Are you really such a moron that you want to make such a claim?

z_dariusThreads: 22 Posts: 5,091 Joined: Oct 18, 07	Edited by: z_darius Mar 19, 08, 13:09 / #
Harry wrote: If the people shipped to Siberia died, Stalin didn't give a crap. But he didn't go out of his way to make sure that those people did die. Better for him to have a nice large slave labour force. Jews however were subject to a policy which very deliberately killed them and which was focussed on their extermination. Heard of the "Final Solution". Actually, both nations were subject to the same policy - the policy of exterminating the entire nation. Only you didn't know about it. Gestapo and NKVD even set a time line of the extermination of Poles. It was to be complete by 1975. Some of the very few surviving Poles would have then be sent to Siberia. Speaking of Stalin's not caring.. well, not so sure if he really forcefully resettled millions of Ukrainians and others, many to their peril and death (holomodor). He did follow a clear policy of extermination of those who stood in the way of his grandiose plans. Also, a quote from Hitler, sometimes used by some Jewish politicians and "historians" referred not to Jews but to Poles: Accordingly I have placed my Totenkopf Units in readiness — for the present only in the East — with orders to them to send to death, mercilessly and without compassion, men, women, and children of Polish race and language . Only thus shall we gain the living space (Lebensraum) which we need. The words in bold font is sometimes changed to Jewish, or omitted altogether. Harry wrote: I know that you and historical fact have never been close but do try and learn a little before you post here. It appears this is now in your court.

HarryThreads: 62 Posts: 8,508 Joined: May 2, 07 [Suspended]	Mar 19, 08, 13:12 / #
z_darius wrote: Speaking of Stalin's not caring.. well, not so sure if he really forcefully resettled millions of Ukrainians and others, many to their peril and death (holomodor). He did follow a clear policy of extermination of those who stood in his grandiose plans. Quite right. Now please point out to me his deliberate policy of exterminating all Poles. You and Celinski can keep talking about Hitler all you want. This thread is about the victims of Stalin.

celinskiThreads: 83 Posts: 2,800 Joined: Nov 14, 07	Mar 19, 08, 13:12 / #
Harry wrote: You are claiming that Stalin planned to exterminate the population of Poland. Just think about that statement for a moment. Are you really such a moron that you want to make such a claim? This is not a claim, this is a fact. Or are you saying the 22,000/25,000 in "Katyn" was the work of Germany.

z_dariusThreads: 22 Posts: 5,091 Joined: Oct 18, 07	Edited by: z_darius Mar 19, 08, 13:15 / #
Harry wrote: Quite right. Now please point out to me his deliberate policy of exterminating all Poles. Well, I'm not gonna do your homework, but I can point you in the right direction. In regards to Poles, read up on Gestapo-NKVD Conferences 1939/40. Especially pay attention to the proceedings 2nd and 3rd conference.