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The Reformation in the Baltic - Denmark, Poland, Sweden



Prince Edited by: Moderator    Nov 15, 2008, 09:34am /  #
Part about Poland:
http://www.boisestate.edu/courses/reformation/baltic/


"Students from Wittenberg brought the reforming message early to Danzig and Cracow, but here as elsewhere national sentiments directly affected the course of the reform movement. Partly because of Polish political traditions, partly because of long-standing ties with France, and partly because of a growing antipathy toward Germans, the Poles took much more strongly to Calvinism and Calvinistic sects. It's worth pointing out, too, that the Hussites had flourished in western Poland, so the country had a long tradition of dissatisfaction with the clergy. Moreover, the country also had a long tradition of religious toleration: many Jews had fled thither from persecutions in the West, and there was even an Islamic Tatar population in Lithuania. In the event, a number of different reform churches took root in Poland, especially during the 1540s and 1550s. While ideas and enclaves could be found everywhere, different flavors of Protestantism flourished in different regions of Poland, for exactly the same reason they did in Germany: due to the preferences and protection of the local nobility."


Polson   Nov 15, 2008, 11:21am /  #
Interesting article ;) Can't read all of it though, cause i have to go. Maybe later.

Prince Edited by: Prince    Nov 15, 2008, 12:51pm /  #
Polson:

Interesting article ;) Can't read all of it though, cause i have to go. Maybe later.


More:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Warsaw_Confederation

konfederacja

The Warsaw Confederation (January 28, 1573), an important development in the history of Poland and Lithuania, is considered the formal beginning of religious freedom in the Polish-Lithuanian Commonwealth. While it did not prevent all conflict based on religion, it did make the Commonwealth a much safer and more tolerant place than most of contemporaneous Europe, especially during the subsequent Thirty Years' War.


This act is remarkable in that it was not imposed by a government or by consequences of war, but rather resulted from the good will of members of Polish-Lithuanian society. It was also influenced by the 1572 French St. Bartholomew's Day Massacre, which prompted the Polish-Lithuanian nobility to see that no monarch would ever be able to carry out such an act in Poland.


This country became what Cardinal Stanislaus Hosius called “a place of shelter for heretics”. It was a place where the most radical religious sects, trying to escape persecution in other countries of the Christian world, sought refuge. All religious sects in Poland enjoyed tolerance as such was the King’s will.



“Certainly, the wording and substance of the declaration of the Confederation of Warsaw of 28th January 1573 were extraordinary with regards to prevailing conditions elsewhere in Europe; and they governed the principles of religious life in the Republic for over two hundred years.” - Norman Davies


Filios1   Nov 15, 2008, 01:02pm /  #
Prince:

which prompted the Polish-Lithuanian nobility to see that no monarch would ever be able to carry out such an act in Poland.


How ironic that this actually led to Polands downfall in the mid 18th century, Lukasz. The Commonwealth, the last great Renaissance state of a citizen army, by making sure there would be no centralized power in a monarch, also ruined any chances of going through a necessary military revolution. We needed a standing army to compete with our neighbours, but without a monarch to secure this, we were doomed.

Prince Edited by: Prince    Nov 15, 2008, 01:21pm /  #
Filios1:

How ironic that this actually led to Polands downfall in the mid 18th century

It was exactly inversely downfall of religous freedom was the result of what you are talking about.

We had even our "Iraq" Like americans who try to establish democracy there... We tried to make republic from Russia (our troops have been to moscov).

Russians see it in this way:



They prefere Putin, mafia and Oligarhs ... Byzantine

:)

Historicians from Wielkopolska (Greater Poland) claim that march on east (Ukriane, Russia) was mistake ... it was much beter to regain our Siliesia and West pomerania.

Filios1 Edited by: Filios1    Nov 15, 2008, 01:30pm /  #
Prince:

our troops have been to moscov


Twice : ) The only nation to ever do so.

Prince:

It was exactly inversely downfall of religous freedom was the result of what you are talking about.


Please clarify this...

Prince, you should read this book:

Northern Wars, by Robert Frost. A very good history of state and society in North-Eastern Europe in the 16th-18th centuries.

Prince Edited by: Prince    Nov 15, 2008, 01:57pm /  #
Filios1:

Northern Wars, by Robert Frost. A very good history of state and society in North-Eastern Europe in the 16th-18th centuries.


I know my family history :)

Filios1:

Please clarify this...



acd

Religions in 1st republic. The bigest mistake was that somebody has taken Mazwosze for parlament sessions. It would be much better to choose Poznań, Kraków or Lublin. Places with brighter and richer nobility...

Filios1:

Twice : ) The only nation to ever do so.


acd

Going back to religous freedom:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Prussian_Homage

The Prussian Homage or Tribute (German: Preußische Huldigung; Polish: ho³d pruski) was the formal investment of Albert of Prussia as duke of the Polish fief of Ducal Prussia.

In the aftermath of the armistice ending the Polish-Teutonic War Albert, Grand Master of the Teutonic Knights and a member of the House of Hohenzollern, visited Martin Luther at Wittenberg and soon therefter became sympathetic to Protestantism. On April 10, 1525, two days after signing of the Treaty of Kraków, in the market of the Polish capital Kraków, Albert resigned his position as Grand Master of the Teutonic Knights to become a Lutheran and receive the title "Duke of Prussia" from his uncle King Zygmunt I the Old of Poland. In a deal partially brokered by Luther, the Duchy of Prussia became the first Protestant state, anticipating the Peace of Augsburg of 1555.


acd
Bratwurst in Kraków ;)

lesser   Nov 15, 2008, 02:01pm /  #
Prince:

It was exactly inversely downfall of religous freedom was the result of what you are talking about.

Prince:

This country became what Cardinal Stanislaus Hosius called “a place of shelter for heretics”. It was a place where the most radical religious sects, trying to escape persecution in other countries of the Christian world, sought refuge.


These sects were kicked out from other countries mostly because they were in opposition to rule of local monarch. Thus this is rather destabilizing factor.

Prince:

We had even our "Iraq" Like americans who try to establish democracy there... We tried to make republic from Russia (our troops have been to moscov).


Do you really believe what you write? Neither Americans care about democracy in Iraq or Polish army had good intentions when invaded Russia. They got what deserved.

miranda Edited by: miranda    Nov 15, 2008, 02:16pm /  #
lesser:


Do you really believe what you write? Neither Americans care about democracy in Iraq or Polish army had good intentions when invaded Russia. They got what deserved.


good point.

Lukasz, przestan pieprzyc bez sensu.

And it is historians not historicians.Yah, I will check every one of your post for spelling and logic:).

Prince Edited by: Prince    Nov 15, 2008, 02:27pm /  #
lesser:

Do you really believe what you write? Neither Americans care about democracy in Iraq or Polish army had good intentions when invaded Russia. They got what deserved.

We can make this debate in other place. Lets stick to religion.

lesser:

These sects were kicked out from other countries mostly because they were in opposition to rule of local monarch. Thus this is rather destabilizing factor.


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thirty_Years'_War

The major impact of the Thirty Years' War, fought mostly by mercenary armies, was the extensive destruction of entire regions, denuded by the foraging armies. Episodes of famine and disease significantly decreased the populace of the German states and the Low Countries and Italy, while bankrupting most of the combatant powers. Some of the quarrels that provoked the war went unresolved for much a longer time. The Thirty Years' War was ended with the Treaty of Münster, a part of the wider Peace of Westphalia.


We avoided this wars. What is more ... most of this "heretics" were right. In modern churches you can't buy place in haven or saints leg isn't artefact. :)

Most people don't think if protestants or catholics are right. We gained big part of european elites (people who were thinking about aim, God, religion - small miniority in every nation). We avoided war Germans had in their country... Our native Polish Calvins have done a lot of good job

Filios1   Nov 15, 2008, 02:37pm /  #
lesser:

They got what deserved.


What kind of Pole are you?

lesser Edited by: lesser    Nov 15, 2008, 03:19pm /  #
Prince:

We avoided this wars. What is more ... most of this "heretics" were right.


They had some good observations, however in general they were fanatics and Calvin is the best example!

Filios1:

What kind of Pole are you?


A Catholic.

Prince Edited by: Prince    Nov 15, 2008, 03:28pm /  #
lesser:

They had some good observations, however in general they were fanatics and Calvin is the best example!


Calvins were extreme is some views ... however they always wanted to prove that they were choosen by God ...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Calvinism

The doctrine of unconditional election asserts that God's choice from eternity of those whom he will bring to himself is not based on foreseen virtue, merit, or faith in those people. Rather, it is unconditionally grounded in God's mercy alone.


You know something like: "I HAVE GOD'S MERCY!!!" I was good motivator.

Read Dmowski to find out about what I am talking about :)

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