City of Warsaw has a new praeambulum

Kowalski wrote:

"Greatfull to past generations for their efforts to carry up Warszawa from the ruins, trustful that in work for our City we shall luck no strength nor persistence, the source of which for many of us is God, and for all - deep faith in a sense of public service"

KowalskiThreads: 12 Posts: 619 Joined: Sep 13, 06	Jan 10, 08, 08:37 / #
City of Warszawa has its brand new constitution (statut), that has a praeambulum. It says "Greatfull to past generations for their efforts to carry up Warszawa from the ruins, trustful that in work for our City we shall luck no strength nor persistence, the source of which for many of us is God, and for all - deep faith in a sense of public service" The Left presented president Gronkiewicz with a catholic kneeler. Gronkiewicz said to jorunalists that the catholics are citizens of Poland and have therefore right to express their faith in public, including city government. see Gronkiewicz taking the kneeler

lesserThreads: 7 Posts: 2,014 Joined: Oct 19, 07	Jan 10, 08, 10:24 / #
As much as I dislike HGW and as much I doubt that status of Warsaw really should have preamble, I must say that this decision is not that bad. Although this is some media trick to attract more Catholic voters to support PO. Craziness of political correctness is far more dangerous than unnecessary preamble. The left also voted to accept this status, they are in Warsaw's ruling coalition. They always vote differently like they want to look like. In fact they are desperate and want to bring attention of people by all means. Hopefully they wont be able to cross threshold in the next parliamentary elections. In Tricity conglomeration not even single leftist managed to be elected to city councils. Whole Poland should follow this trend.

hairballThreads: 37 Posts: 787 Joined: Dec 16, 07	Jan 10, 08, 10:30 / #
Religon and politics is a bad combination!

lesserThreads: 7 Posts: 2,014 Joined: Oct 19, 07	Jan 10, 08, 10:42 / #
hairball wrote: Religon and politics is a bad combination! Preamble belong to politics only in sphere of propaganda. It has not influence on laws.

isthatuThreads: 4 Posts: 1,627 Joined: Jun 8, 07	Jan 10, 08, 13:10 / #
Kowalski wrote: the source of which for many of us is God, Note,it doesnt say "Catholic" God,so whats wrong with it? Is it any worse than the USA's In God we Trust?

Grzegorz_Threads: 81 Posts: 6,213 Joined: Nov 16, 06	Jan 10, 08, 13:11 / #
isthatu wrote: it doesnt say "Catholic" It is so obvious that doesn't have to be mentioned.

CrowThreads: 367 Posts: 7,316 Joined: Feb 14, 07 [Suspended]	Jan 10, 08, 13:18 / #
Kowalski wrote: "Greatfull to past generations for their efforts to carry up Warszawa from the ruins, trustful that in work for our City we shall luck no strength nor persistence, the source of which for many of us is God, and for all - deep faith in a sense of public service" If i may contribute to this preambulum... having in mind tragic Polish, Western Slavic and Slavic history in general add next words into preambulum: ``WARSAWA IS FREE CITY. EVEN SLAVE IF COME TO WARSAWA, ON POLISH GROUND, IS SLAVE NO MORE`` [on the base of words from first Serbian constitution after Serbs liberates from Turks, 200 years ago. Ironically, those words were reason for first USA pressure on Serbs] Long live Warsawa, piedmont of Sarmatia!

isthatuThreads: 4 Posts: 1,627 Joined: Jun 8, 07	Jan 10, 08, 13:22 / #
Grzegorz_ wrote: It is so obvious that doesn't have to be mentioned. what is obvious?Have you a point or are you just being your usual trollish self?

Ozi DanThreads: 22 Posts: 552 Joined: Nov 22, 07	Jan 10, 08, 18:42 / #
hairball wrote: Religon and politics is a bad combination! I agree. I think God should have been left out of the equation, and I say that coming from a country that wouldnt have such connotations in any preamble. However, being mindful of the modern history of Poland, and the deep connection between Polish people and God, I can understand why.

KrzysztofThreads: 2 Posts: 1,146 Joined: Jul 26, 07	Jan 10, 08, 20:06 / #
hairball wrote: Religon and politics is a bad combination! thank you for your input, but if it hadn't been for this combination, we (Poland) would be probably still governed by some pseudo-socialist post-communist regime that would win every "free election" with 80-90% of votes (like in today's Belorussia or Russia). So, being an atheist for 20 years, I don't mind those words about God in the preamble.

lesserThreads: 7 Posts: 2,014 Joined: Oct 19, 07	Jan 12, 08, 15:43 / #
hairball wrote: I'm very sorry, but I was under the impression that Solidarność defeated communism! Solidarity I don't see any link to religion! Well, trust me, you don't really know even "official" version of what happened. Still this "official" version is very idealized, reality was not so "bright". If you don't know Polish then this is very hard to find out proper information. I think that possibly this book might be good. Poland's Transformation: A Work in Progress amazon.com/Polands-Transformation-Marek-Jan-Chodakiewicz/dp/0967996023

isthatuThreads: 4 Posts: 1,627 Joined: Jun 8, 07	Edited by: isthatu Jan 12, 08, 16:22 / #
As an outsider,and corect me if Im wrong,the conections are intertwinned and date back at least to the times of the Warsaw uprising. The Church played an integral part with the Home Army and the AK gained much moral /spiritual strengh through their faith. In communist times the only places where open memorials to the home army,free of political interferance ,could be placed were in Churches.Solidarity,in many ways was the inheritor of the Home Army/Underground Govt mantle and many families involved in the underground aspects of the solidarity movements were desendants of Underground govt/Home army people. And the solidarity people got a massive boost from the open support,and vist by,Pope John Paull 2.

KrzysztofThreads: 2 Posts: 1,146 Joined: Jul 26, 07	Jan 12, 08, 21:18 / #
hairball wrote: I was under the impression that Solidarność defeated communism! Solidarity thanks for providing me with the link to the English Wiki article about Solidarność, I couldn't find it without your help :) you were under the impression, and I've lived through those times (born in 1970, never emigrated), so, hopefully I know what I'm talking about. hairball wrote: I don't see any link to religion! then you need to look harder (or maybe in the right place)

lesserThreads: 7 Posts: 2,014 Joined: Oct 19, 07	Jan 13, 08, 11:15 / #
isthatu wrote: As an outsider,and corect me if Im wrong,the conections are intertwinned and date back at least to the times of the Warsaw uprising. The church role in improving morals of Polish people under occupation was very important. The church stand staunchly in this position since partitions of Poland.

lesserThreads: 7 Posts: 2,014 Joined: Oct 19, 07	Jan 11, 08, 06:56 / #
isthatu wrote: Note,it doesnt say "Catholic" God Since when Catholics use the term "Catholic God". According to Catholics, God is only one. So if you say "God", this is clear enough. However in this form preamble fits also people of different religions.

isthatuThreads: 4 Posts: 1,627 Joined: Jun 8, 07	Jan 11, 08, 07:00 / #
lesser wrote: However in this form preamble fits also people of different religions. my point exactly,thank you L'.

hairballThreads: 37 Posts: 787 Joined: Dec 16, 07	Edited by: hairball Jan 12, 08, 13:33 / #
Krzysztof wrote: but if it hadn't been for this combination, we (Poland) would be probably still governed by some pseudo-socialist post-communist regime I'm very sorry, but I was under the impression that Solidarność defeated communism! Solidarity I don't see any link to religion!