Jaruzelski testifies before court, any thoughts?

Jaruzelski testifies before court

Wojciech Jaruzelski, Poland's former president, prime minister,
military leader and head of the communist regime is testifying before court. Along with six other former communist dignitaries, Jaruzelski is accused of unlawfully imposingmartial law on the country on December 13th, 1981.

At the court session today Jaruzelski presented two hundred pages of explanations. He does not admit to the charges and says introducing martial law was necessary for the good of Poland.

celinskiThreads: 83 Posts: 2,800 Joined: Nov 14, 07	Oct 2, 08, 07:16 / #
With 200 pages of explanations it seems like this will be a long trial. What do the people in Poland feel a fair verdic would be? Jaruzelski testifies before court Wojciech Jaruzelski, Poland's former president, prime minister, military leader and head of the communist regime is testifying before court. Along with six other former communist dignitaries, Jaruzelski is accused of unlawfully imposingmartial law on the country on December 13th, 1981. At the court session today Jaruzelski presented two hundred pages of explanations. He does not admit to the charges and says introducing martial law was necessary for the good of Poland. polskieradio.pl/zagranica/news/artykul92706_Jaruzelski_testifies_befor e_court.html

SeanusThreads: 22 Posts: 30,158 Joined: Dec 25, 07	Oct 2, 08, 07:21 / #
I think we need to ask ourselves just how much influence he was under. Martial law was declared in NI some time ago and there wasn't such a hoo-haa about it back then. If the prevailing conditions of the time necessitated it, then it can be justified quite easily. We must understand that order needs to be restored. If other means fail then it leaves little room for maneuver.

MarekThreads: 4 Posts: 1,120 Joined: Feb 15, 07	Oct 2, 08, 07:38 / #
Too little, too late! Pity they didn't prosecute Gomułka, Moczarz and the rest of that bunch..... Perhaps they did and I missed it (... guess'cuz I blinked he-he-:)--:)). I recently say the film 'Przezsłuchanie' at our local Polish film festival. If that wa any taste of Pan Władek's regime, it must have been pretty horrible.

SashaThreads: 2 Posts: 1,597 Joined: Apr 19, 08	Oct 2, 08, 07:49 / #
What is the Polish attitude towards his personality like? I'm honestly not very familiar with how bad imposing of martial law was for Poland but on Russian radio I heard point of view that it'd saved your country of further occupation by SU. How truthful is it?

celinskiThreads: 83 Posts: 2,800 Joined: Nov 14, 07	Oct 2, 08, 08:03 / #
Sasha: further occupation by SU They were still under SU occupation for another eight years. So as to "further" what are you thinking of as a time line?

SashaThreads: 2 Posts: 1,597 Joined: Apr 19, 08	Oct 2, 08, 08:21 / #
celinski: So as to "further" what are you thinking of as a time line? I'm asking... I don't know. I'm just curious about the role he played in polish history. What radio said that he was actually against Soviets and tried what he thought would be best.

DekameronThreads: 1 Posts: 289 Joined: Sep 11, 08	Oct 2, 08, 08:24 / #
Sasha: What is the Polish attitude towards his personality like? I'm honestly not very familiar with how bad imposing of martial law was for Poland but on Russian radio I heard point of view that it'd saved your country of further occupation by SU. How truthful is it? To be honest no one is fully certain whether Russia would invade or not but Jaruzelski is not well liked, he was after all a collaborator and a hardliner commie.

lesserThreads: 7 Posts: 2,014 Joined: Oct 19, 07	Oct 2, 08, 11:58 / #
Sasha: I'm asking... I don't know. I'm just curious about the role he played in polish history. What radio said that he was actually against Soviets and tried what he thought would be best. Commies murdered some people. Most likely the Soviets would not interfere. At least according to your countryman Vladimir Bukovsky who copied some interesting part documents from Soviet achieves. Soviet army was involved in Afghanistan and leadership rejected possibility of eventual Polish intervention. Jaruzelski was informed that he can count only on himself and personally I think that Polish intelligence informed him that Soviet army wasn't moving west. Solidarity at that time was more independent, "upgraded version" was fully controlled by government's agents. Thus they controlled whole process of transformation. Dekameron: To be honest no one is fully certain whether Russia would invade or not but Jaruzelski is not well liked, he was after all a collaborator and a hardliner commie. He was rather a coward and for sure not a hard-line commie. Such person would be much more brutal and would never agree to dissolve PRL. Obviously internal non-military policy would be completely different as well.

DekameronThreads: 1 Posts: 289 Joined: Sep 11, 08	Oct 2, 08, 12:04 / #
lesser: He was rather a coward and for sure not a hard-line commie. Such person would be much more brutal and would never agree to dissolve PRL. Obviously internal non-military policy would be completely different as well. Oh he was a hardliner, i never said he was brave or consequential about it but his beliefs were definitely hardcore communist.

lesserThreads: 7 Posts: 2,014 Joined: Oct 19, 07	Oct 2, 08, 12:11 / #
Dekameron: Oh he was a hardliner, i never said he was brave or consequential about it but his beliefs were definitely hardcore communist. So why he did not realize his communist belief in practice?

jonniThreads: 26 Posts: 4,181 Joined: Nov 27, 07	Edited by: jonni Oct 2, 08, 13:42 / #
celinski: Sasha: further occupation by SU They were still under SU occupation for another eight years. So as to "further" what are you thinking of as a time line? It wasn't really occupation - that would only be if other countries didn't recognise it, which they (including the US, UK and UN, did). What people were afraid of was another Czechoslovakia 68 or Hungary 56. Many Polish people, while doing compulsory military service, had taken part in the Soviet invasion of Czechoslovakia and remember its horrors. They (including the higher echelons of the army and Jaruzelski's cabinet) had no intention of allowing that to happen in Poland. It is very debatable as to whether it would have, but it was nevertheless a very real fear at the time. Nothing will happen to Jaruzelski. He is 85 and in very poor health, spending a lot of time in hospital (he's my neighbour and I see him often). The court hearing happens every year and is always adjourned. People in Poland don't like the idea of prosecuting a former president, and in any case, he was no Ceaucescu or Milosevic. After the terrible shootings in Gdansk in 1970, while he was head of the army, people remember his public apology, and nobody except fanatics want the recent past dragging through the courts like that, not least because there are plenty of normal people here who behaved during Martial Law in ways they don't want reminding of. After Jaruzelski's death, no doubt the IPN will investigate, but right now, nothing will happen.

lesserThreads: 7 Posts: 2,014 Joined: Oct 19, 07	Oct 2, 08, 14:48 / #
Dekameron: Oh for fuckssake i'd hope you respect me as an inteligent poster, the communism such as it was was an excuse for fascist authoritarian socialism but its called communism even though it does not follow the idea by the book so live with it and deal with it. Well, your WTC theory doesn't help you to look good in my eyes... Anyway, this is not forum which would consist middle aged Polish members. Probably in this group majority would understand what is your point. Here you have plenty of foreigners and also younger Poles, your style certainly doesn't help them to understand situation.

DekameronThreads: 1 Posts: 289 Joined: Sep 11, 08	Oct 2, 08, 14:51 / #
lesser: Well, your WTC theory doesn't help you to look good in my eyes... There's no theory, jewish community got wind of something bad about to happen and capitalized on it, Jews have a world to gain with U.S involvement in the middle east. lesser: Anyway, this is not forum which would consist middle aged Polish members. Probably in this group majority would understand what is your point. Here you have plenty of foreigners and also younger Poles, your style certainly doesn't help them to understand situation. They too call it communism and unless we want to be really tiresome and enlighten them about what socialism communism and so forth ... are all about lets just screw semantics.

lesserThreads: 7 Posts: 2,014 Joined: Oct 19, 07	Oct 2, 08, 16:48 / #
Dekameron: There's no theory, jewish community got wind of something bad about to happen and capitalized on it, Jews have a world to gain with U.S involvement in the middle east. Do you voted for PO by any chance? Dekameron: They too call it communism and unless we want to be really tiresome and enlighten them about what socialism communism and so forth ... are all about lets just screw semantics. This is not about semantics. For example if I discuss about politics with somebody from other country (and know little about it) and he posting in your style then it is very hard to find out how it is in fact. The language is destined to communication, so we should avoid confusions by using improper words as much as possible.

DekameronThreads: 1 Posts: 289 Joined: Sep 11, 08	Oct 2, 08, 14:00 / #
jonni: and in any case, he was no Ceaucescu or Milosevic. More or less, the guy was a patriot, his patriotism was seriously misguided and messed up but none the less he believed in what he was doing. lesser: So why he did not realize his communist belief in practice? Oh for fuckssake i'd hope you respect me as an inteligent poster, the communism such as it was was an excuse for fascist authoritarian socialism but its called communism even though it does not follow the idea by the book so live with it and deal with it.

z_dariusThreads: 22 Posts: 5,091 Joined: Oct 18, 07	Oct 2, 08, 23:25 / #
Marek: I recently say the film 'Przezsłuchanie' at our local Polish film festival. If that wa any taste of Pan Władek's regime, it must have been pretty horrible. wasn't Przesłuchanie about the times when Jews were the masters of the NKVD/KGB in Poland?

plk123Threads: 30 Posts: 6,412 Joined: Aug 29, 07	Oct 2, 08, 23:52 / #
Seanus: We must understand that order needs to be restored. but there was no disorder at that time.. what was happening was free speech and real exposures of corruption, etc. Sasha: I'm honestly not very familiar with how bad imposing of martial law was for Poland but on Russian radio I heard point of view that it'd saved your country of further occupation by SU. How truthful is it? bad that's his excuse.. i used to believe it.. still kind of do... it's possibly one of the main factors. soviet soldiers' presence in PL was highly evident in the summer of '81. i think the squeeze was there because of these new found/pushed for freedoms. kremlin didn't care for these rumblings. celinski: So as to "further" what are you thinking hungury, czekoslovakia. Dekameron: .. the communism such as it was was an excuse for fascist authoritarian socialism but its called communism even though it does not follow the idea by the book so live with it and deal with it. right on. not many seem to realize that.

DekameronThreads: 1 Posts: 289 Joined: Sep 11, 08	Oct 3, 08, 04:08 / #
lesser: Do you voted for PO by any chance? Nope i voted for Samoobrona, i like the white/red striped socks.

celinskiThreads: 83 Posts: 2,800 Joined: Nov 14, 07	Oct 3, 08, 07:41 / #
Nice guy, he fought the very military that gave Poland her freedom in 1920. "He participated in the liberation of Warsaw and Berlin as an officer in the First Polish Army, a Soviet-sponsored corps. He further credited himself in Soviet eyes by fighting against the anti-communist Polish Home Army from 1945 to 1947. Jaruzelski joined the Communist Party in 1947." cnn.com/SPECIALS/cold.war/kbank/profiles/jaruzelski/

joepilsudskiThreads: 44 Posts: 2,529 Joined: Apr 27, 07	Oct 5, 08, 02:48 / #
Let him die in peace and at home...he had a difficult job.

DekameronThreads: 1 Posts: 289 Joined: Sep 11, 08	Oct 5, 08, 12:13 / #
joepilsudski: Let him die in peace and at home...he had a difficult job. Quoted for truth, i do not like the guy but at this time in our history and his life the matter needs to die with him, in peace.

lesserThreads: 7 Posts: 2,014 Joined: Oct 19, 07	Oct 5, 08, 14:43 / #
Send him to the UK or Spain, we will see whether he will be offered better treatment than old Pinochet!