Polish Business, Economy, Politics, Mindset, etc.

Dawid:

If you're in the automotive business, more specifically, making parts for mass-produced passenger vehicles, then the market is pretty saturated here. Especially in southwest Poland, the industrial heart, there are a lot of OEM car parts being manufactured. Not to mention Poland is still the kind of place where people have small machine shops in their garages. Ma & Pa automotive repair places are everywhere. There are a lot of foreign car factories in Poland too, and Poland doesn't really have its own brand of car anymore. Racing is not big here yet... there's not really a suitable place to have a Formula One track. Maybe an emerging market for high-performance parts.

If you're harboring thoughts of coming to Poland to start the American Dream, so to speak, you're going to find it tough to get going. Foreigners can't just buy things here so easy, and you will need a visa and residency card. If you have enough Polish heritage, the best thing you could do by far is to see if your Polish blood qualifies you for Polish citizenship (go check the closest Polish consulate). If you get this, it will eliminate a lot of the barriers for non-EU citizens to settle down and start a life. Otherwise marrying a Pole would be another option.

Don't look to Europe for lower taxes. And starting a business here is harder too. A basic limited liability company requires a capital investment of 50,000 zloty (about $ 17,000), and you'll likely need a Polish partner(s).

Good luck!

John_KThreads: 2 Posts: 6 Joined: Nov 23, 08	Nov 23, 08, 01:18 / #
As I sit here, watching my country fall apart (despite my efforts to "live the american dream"), I begin to ponder my choices. What is the current outlook (current, 3yr, 5yr, 10yr) for manufacturing in Poland? Specifically precision machining, tool and diemaking, metal fabrication, welding, etc. Also, I see that auto racing is growing (at least according to the media), how is the infrastructure set up for design, manufacturing, repair, and racing/sanctioning tracks and events? The same questions for standard consumer (I dislike that word) automobiles. Is there a market for alternative energy sources? How hard is it to set up a small business? Where can I find an English translation of the current Polish tax code? How stable is the government? Are they as greedy as the typical American Politician? What is the mindset of the average Pole? Are they hard working, honest people? Are they like the "average" lazy, "give me", disposable, latest and greatest fad, consume, consume, consume, American? Would it be remotely possible for an American (with polish ancestry) to move to Poland, assimilate into the culture and work his way up, build a small business, and help his fellow man build a stronger country, as my grandfather did when moving to America many years ago? I realize its going to be tough no matter where I am. I'm just tired of fighting a losing battle where greed, ignorance, and lack of self-responsibility seem to be the majority of people's ethics. I have 5 years before I finish my prior commitments, I'm just trying to figure out a plan ahead of time (it will probably take me all 5 years to learn the language anyway ;-) )

dcchrisThreads: 11 Posts: 687 Joined: Oct 29, 07	Nov 23, 08, 06:06 / #
my advice would simply to come here and see for yourself. no one can tell you how it is. the red tape here is unbelievable and the tax system is changing

Grzegorz_Threads: 81 Posts: 6,213 Joined: Nov 16, 06	Nov 23, 08, 06:10 / #
John_K: What is the current outlook (current, 3yr, 5yr, 10yr) for manufacturing in Poland? Sorry but the whole world is going down the toilet. Thank you America.

LondonChickThreads: 43 Posts: 1,261 Joined: Nov 19, 07	Nov 23, 08, 06:21 / #
John_K: What is the current outlook (current, 3yr, 5yr, 10yr) for manufacturing in Poland? Let me just consult my crystal ball....

John_KThreads: 2 Posts: 6 Joined: Nov 23, 08	Nov 23, 08, 10:48 / #
dcchris: my advice would simply to come here and see for yourself. no one can tell you how it is. the red tape here is unbelievable and the tax system is changing I plan on it, but there is only so much you can learn/do in 90 days. Grzegorz_: Sorry but the whole world is going down the toilet. Thank you America. Ya don't say? LondonChick: Let me just consult my crystal ball.... No need for a crystal ball, just look at the big picture. Business 101, where can you get the raw materials, and who is going to buy the product. What is trade like between neighboring countries? What is the government pushing for regarding trade/tax policies.

miranda	Nov 23, 08, 10:51 / #
John_K: No need for a crystal ball, just look at the big picture. Business 101, where can you get the raw materials, and who is going to buy the product. What is trade like between neighboring countries? What is the government pushing for regarding trade/tax policies. that would mean that you would be looking at other sources such a business sites in order to get some ideas.

John_KThreads: 2 Posts: 6 Joined: Nov 23, 08	Nov 23, 08, 13:33 / #
miranda: that would mean that you would be looking at other sources such a business sites in order to get some ideas. Actually, I have been. Though I can't tell how slanted they are. Anyone can tweak the numbers to look the way they want. What I'm looking for here is just general feelings/thoughts and personal opinions. I'd trust the opinion of 100 people before I'd trust the media. As an example, I've read the 1997 Constitution of the Republic of Poland, and it mirrors very closely our Constitution. But then I look at how Americans are taking our constitution and bending it away from its intended meaning, Many wish to rewrite it, and several act like it doesn't even exist. If someone from Poland wished to come here and asked me my opinion, I'd give it, I wouldn't just tell them to look elsewhere. :shrug:

miranda	Nov 23, 08, 13:57 / #
John_K: If someone from Poland wished to come here and asked me my opinion, I'd give it, I wouldn't just tell them to look elsewhere. that was not my intention. I was merely suggesting more business oriented source. Good luck.

LondonChickThreads: 43 Posts: 1,261 Joined: Nov 19, 07	Edited by: LondonChick Nov 23, 08, 14:00 / #
John_K: No need for a crystal ball, just look at the big picture. Business 101, where can you get the raw materials, and who is going to buy the product. What is trade like between neighboring countries? What is the government pushing for regarding trade/tax policies. You might be expecting a bit much from this forum. Want tips of things to see and do in Warsaw? Need a hotel in Krakow? - sure, we can help you out there, no probs. But you are going to need to cultivate your own industry contacts in Poland if you are to move there.

John_KThreads: 2 Posts: 6 Joined: Nov 23, 08	Nov 23, 08, 16:17 / #
LondonChick: You might be expecting a bit much from this forum. Want tips of things to see and do in Warsaw? Need a hotel in Krakow? - sure, we can help you out there, no probs. But you are going to need to cultivate your own industry contacts in Poland if you are to move there. I apologize if my post was misconstrued. I'm not looking for business contacts, I'm looking for people's opinions. As an example, manufacturing in the US has mostly been shipped overseas in the last decade. The only industries that are still here are aerospace because of FAA regulations, and they tend to be on the west coast. Commuter vehicle manufacture is based in the north/central part of the country, and the majority of racecar builders are in the southeast. Government regulation is relatively lax, EPA and OSHA regulations being the strictest. As far as workers go, the commuter manufacturers tend to be UNION members- getting over-paid to sleep on the job, race builders range from national teams with the best-of-the-best, to shadetree mechanics running in their local match race on the weekends. There is also a large hot rodding community in California, though local laws tend to be liberal, and there's a large number of Mexican immigrants. There are some light tool and die manufacturing scattered around, mostly prototype stuff, though the construction industry relies heavily on welders and sheetmetal fabricators for structural welding and HVAC, though they're union, they aren't as bad as the auto manufacturers, and it only takes certification from a local community college to meet the basic requirements. Big business is slowly pushing the smaller mom-and-pop shops out, and government contracts sometimes require kickbacks and knowing the right people. Taxes aren't too bad right now, though its going to be EXTREMELY tough on small business once Obama's bills pass, though there ARE many tax write-offs, I highly doubt it will offset the hit they'll take. As far as exporting goes, we don't really make much of anything these days, nothing compared to the industrial revolution of the 1930s-1970s. Importing is way too easy, personally I'd rather that big business were taxed accordingly on their imports so that it equaled the cost of having products made locally (using imports to make up for the demand that local production couldn't cover). The midwest is mostly farming, with a large production of Ethanol from feed corn (fit for animal consumption, not human consumption), though its highly subsidized by the government, its creating the demand for advances in the technology to manufacture it from alternative sources. Solar power is growing- one of the largest shipping companies has recently installed units on their westcoast warehouse, creating enough power to run the facility throughout most of the day, even feeding power back to the grid at certain times. Get the idea?

Dawid	Edited by: Dawid Nov 23, 08, 17:39 / #
John_K: As far as exporting goes, we don't really make much of anything these days What are you smoking? In 2007, American exports totaled $1.64 trillion. This is a record and represents the largest increase in modern history (11% over 2006). To put that into perspective, $1.64 trillion in American exports was greater than the entire GDP of any single country beyond the G-7 (US, Japan, Germany, China, UK, France, Italy). American exports were nearly 4 times greater than the whole GDP of Poland. Many of your other statements are wrong too. Why are you spreading this kind of disinformation on Polish Forums? The US is currently an excellent place for investment into manufacturing. Land is cheap. Labor is available, cost is reasonable, and labor laws favor the employer. Taxes are low. Infrastructure is superb. Raw materials are readily available. Financing is still available. There is a large domestic market, and plenty of free trade agreements for overseas exports. Poland was doing very well lately -- roughly 6% GDP growth, and attracted about $15 billion in FDI last year. Mainly manufacturing into one of the dozen or so special economic zones, where employers enjoy 10 years of tax breaks. Work ethic is also good, labor is (was) cheap, and you can export to anywhere in the EU without tariffs. So lots of big companies were making Poland a manufacturing base for the European market, not really worrying about the domestic market - everything was for export. However infrastructure is poor and labor costs are catching up to regular EU standards. It's very difficult sometimes to procure raw materials; sometimes prices can skyrocket for mundane things. It's also difficult to setup a greenfield investment, and nearly impossible if you're a foreign company trying to do it on your own, without the benefit of a Polish partner. The Polish Government has recently issued an adjustment to its growth rate - they now expect 1% instead of 6%. As far as renewable energy, currently the EU has mandated that 5% of any country's energy must come from renewable sources. This will be 20% by 2020. So yes there is a growing market everywhere in the EU. Poland however generates 99% of its electricity from coal, and is having a tough time complying. The coal union is very strong, and represents several hundred thousand jobs, mainly in Silesia. There's only a few places here suitable for wind farms, there's not a lot of sun year-round for solar, and underground hot springs are not generally hot enough for geothermal energy. If you want more info go to Polska Agencja Informacji i Inwestycji Zagranicznych (PAiIZ): http://www.paiz.gov.pl/index/ You can also contact the U.S. Commercial Service offices in Warsaw: http://www.buyusa.gov/poland/en/

John_KThreads: 2 Posts: 6 Joined: Nov 23, 08	Nov 23, 08, 18:20 / #
Dawid: Many of your other statements are wrong too. Why are you spreading this kind of disinformation on Polish Forums? I'm just writing what I've seen. Dawid: The US is currently an excellent place for investment into manufacturing. Land is cheap. The cost of buying land in a well developed area with good infrastructure has tripled in the last 7 years. Yes, it has dropped in certain areas, but the cost of transportation and finding skilled labor in those areas more than makes up for it. Dawid: Labor is available, cost is reasonable, and labor laws favor the employer. Skilled labor? Maybe if you're hiring a button pusher. Dawid: Taxes are low. For now. Dawid: Infrastructure is superb. Raw materials are readily available. Financing is still available. My transportation costs have risen 30% in the last 3 years, my cost of raw materials has more than doubled. Financing was available 8 months ago, now the only way to get a loan for a pack of gum is to put up $50,000 in collateral. Though I prefer being able to pay out of pocket for most expenses, aside from the usual revolving credit from steady suppliers, and knowing that I could settle all my accounts within 90 days and walk away. Dawid: There is a large domestic market, and plenty of free trade agreements for overseas exports. There is a large domestic market right now, but when you see 3 of your best clients (3 year business relationship, ~$750K in profit) pull out because they've gone bankrupt, and your competitors close shop mainly because their clients decided to have their products shipped overseas, it really makes your stomach turn. Along with watching your smaller customers struggling to make ends meet because they lost all their long term investments and have to drastically restructure their savings plan in order to survive after retirement. Dawid: Poland was doing very well lately -- roughly 6% GDP growth, and attracted about $15 billion in FDI last year. Mainly manufacturing into one of the dozen or so special economic zones, where employers enjoy 10 years of tax breaks. Labor was cheap, and you can export to anywhere in the EU without tariffs. So lots of big companies were making Poland a manufacturing base for the European market, not really worrying about the domestic market - everything was for export. However infrastructure is poor and labor costs are catching up to regular EU standards. It's very difficult sometimes to procure raw materials; sometimes prices can skyrocket for mundane things. It's also difficult to setup a greenfield investment, and nearly impossible if you're a foreign company trying to do it on your own, without the benefit of a Polish partner. The Polish Government has recently issued an adjustment to its growth rate - they now expect 1% instead of 6%. If you want more info go to Polska Agencja Informacji i Inwestycji Zagranicznych (PAiIZ): http://www.paiz.gov.pl/index/ Thank you for the link, and your opinion.

Dawid	Edited by: Dawid Nov 23, 08, 18:54 / #
John, whether Poland will fit or not all depends on your business. Large American companies have had good luck here (for the most part), but it's been a tougher road for small and medium sized businesses. If you're in the automotive business, more specifically, making parts for mass-produced passenger vehicles, then the market is pretty saturated here. Especially in southwest Poland, the industrial heart, there are a lot of OEM car parts being manufactured. Not to mention Poland is still the kind of place where people have small machine shops in their garages. Ma & Pa automotive repair places are everywhere. There are a lot of foreign car factories in Poland too, and Poland doesn't really have its own brand of car anymore. Racing is not big here yet... there's not really a suitable place to have a Formula One track. Maybe an emerging market for high-performance parts. If you're harboring thoughts of coming to Poland to start the American Dream, so to speak, you're going to find it tough to get going. Foreigners can't just buy things here so easy, and you will need a visa and residency card. If you have enough Polish heritage, the best thing you could do by far is to see if your Polish blood qualifies you for Polish citizenship (go check the closest Polish consulate). If you get this, it will eliminate a lot of the barriers for non-EU citizens to settle down and start a life. Otherwise marrying a Pole would be another option. Don't look to Europe for lower taxes. And starting a business here is harder too. A basic limited liability company requires a capital investment of 50,000 zloty (about $ 17,000), and you'll likely need a Polish partner(s). Good luck!

John_KThreads: 2 Posts: 6 Joined: Nov 23, 08	Nov 23, 08, 20:48 / #
Dawid: If you're in the automotive business, more specifically, making parts for mass-produced passenger vehicles, then the market is pretty saturated here. Especially in southwest Poland, the industrial heart, there are a lot of OEM car parts being manufactured. Not to mention Poland is still the kind of place where people have small machine shops in their garages. Ma & Pa automotive repair places are everywhere. There are a lot of foreign car factories in Poland too, and Poland doesn't really have its own brand of car anymore. Racing is not big here yet... there's not really a suitable place to have a Formula One track. Maybe an emerging market for high-performance parts. If you're harboring thoughts of coming to Poland to start the American Dream, so to speak, you're going to find it tough to get going. Foreigners can't just buy things here so easy, and you will need a visa and residency card. If you have enough Polish heritage, the best thing you could do by far is to see if your Polish blood qualifies you for Polish citizenship (go check the closest Polish consulate). If you get this, it will eliminate a lot of the barriers for non-EU citizens to settle down and start a life. Otherwise marrying a Pole would be another option. Don't look to Europe for lower taxes. And starting a business here is harder too. A basic limited liability company requires a capital investment of 50,000 zloty (about $ 17,000), and you'll likely need a Polish partner(s). Good luck! Thank you, Actually I'm in the performance industry, mostly american and import drag racing, with SCCA road race cars in between, along with prototype parts for streetcars. Though I've got 17 years experience in general auto repair, along with many national certifications. For the last few years I've been focusing on concourse restoration of British and European classics from the 50's and 60's (Jaguar, Aston Martin, Ferrari, Prosche, Lamborghini, Fiat, etc.), and I have several years of tool and die making experience. I'm researching my heritage right now, and that's the way I was planning on going, as I don't believe in marriage for any reason other than love and lifelong companionship. I wouldn't have a problem making ends meet by welding fences, building construction and remodeling, or wrenching on the family sedan. Just as long as I can be a part of the emerging racing community; pushing for safe, responsible racing, and putting smiles on people's faces. While having a warm bed to sleep in, and a full stomach. Basically work my way up as I've done here.