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How unified is NATO?


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FranekThreads: 21
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Joined: Apr 12, 08 		  Sep 5, 08, 09:51 /  #
What would NATO have done if Georgia were a member of NATO during the recent attack by Russia? The same goes for Poland, the Czech republic and other central European Nations.

Would they be willing to send troops to engage Russia.. Or is NATO a big joke.

Should the Ukraine be allowed to join NATO?
Bratwurst BoyThreads: 11
Posts: 14,563
Joined: Apr 2, 07 		  Sep 5, 08, 10:13 /  #
Franek:

What would NATO have done if Georgia were a member of NATO during the recent attack by Russia?


That's exactly the reason why Georgia got the finger at the NATO summit in April in Budapest.

To become a member the aspirant country get's the MAP, there all conflicts with neighbours, territorial or otherwise, have to be CLEARED FIRST before there can be a chance for an unanimous nod.
The US pushed for a georgian membership but many others were against it because of Georgia's trouble with secession movements.
Then IF Georgia had been a member the NATO would had been obliged to help and to support Georgia!

PS: And in my opinion what holds true for Georgia the same should hold for every other country who wants just in just to wield more power in their petty, little regional conflicts ("See we are in the NATO now, don't mess with me or I will call for them!") - the NATO isn't a mercenary organization!
FranekThreads: 21
Posts: 525
Joined: Apr 12, 08 		  Sep 5, 08, 10:23 /  #
Bratwurst Boy:

Then IF Georgia had been a member the NATO would had been obliged to help and to support Georgia!


By all logic, yes you are right. But would they? Or would it be a repeat of 1939. Most of western Europe was assured of help. But it never came.
Bratwurst BoyThreads: 11
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Joined: Apr 2, 07 		Edited by: Bratwurst Boy   Sep 5, 08, 10:27 /  #
They would!

It's a defence alliance to help the members in case of an attack...without this guarantee there is no NATO.
(Georgia was neither a member nor were they attacked...Georgia started it all!)
lesserThreads: 7
Posts: 2,014
Joined: Oct 19, 07 		  Sep 5, 08, 10:41 /  #
Franek:

What would NATO have done if Georgia were a member of NATO during the recent attack by Russia? The same goes for Poland, the Czech republic and other central European Nations.


This is written in The North Atlantic Treaty?

Article 5

The Parties agree that an armed attack against one or more of them in Europe or North America shall be considered an attack against them all and consequently they agree that, if such an armed attack occurs, each of them, in exercise of the right of individual or collective self-defence recognised by Article 51 of the Charter of the United Nations, will assist the Party or Parties so attacked by taking forthwith, individually and in concert with the other Parties, such action as it deems necessary, including the use of armed force, to restore and maintain the security of the North Atlantic area.

So, probably it would be an official protest.
celinskiThreads: 83
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Joined: Nov 14, 07 		  Sep 5, 08, 10:50 /  #
lesser:

So, probably it would be an official protest.



In other words they would do what they are doing.
Bratwurst BoyThreads: 11
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celinski:

In other words they would do what they are doing.


Sure...as Georgia is NOT a member of the NATO they are correct!
lesserThreads: 7
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Bratwurst Boy:

Sure...as Georgia is NOT a member of the NATO they are correct!


We discuss hypothetical situation when Georgia would be a member of the pact.
FranekThreads: 21
Posts: 525
Joined: Apr 12, 08 		  Sep 5, 08, 11:26 /  #
lesser:


We discuss hypothetical situation when Georgia would be a member of the pact.


I am looking for your personal opinion. As for myself, by time NATO came to a unified decision.. It would be too late. Look how fast Russia went through Georgia..
Would NATO be prepared for a quick response..?
I doubt it.
celinskiThreads: 83
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Joined: Nov 14, 07 		  Sep 5, 08, 11:30 /  #
Franek:

I doubt it.


I think if need be they can move rather quickly. Although in this case I feel the damage has been done and now it will take using brains and working as a team to get through the Georgia situation.
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I cannot imagine NATO fighting for Georgia at all.
celinskiThreads: 83
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Joined: Nov 14, 07 		  Sep 5, 08, 11:40 /  #
lesser:

NATO fighting for Georgia


There are more than one way to fight a war and NATO must show they are there.


"U.S. Flagship Enters Black Sea"

The USS Mount Whitney, flagship of the U.S. Navy Sixth Fleet, has entered the Black Sea and is sailing toward the shore of Georgia. The Pentagon has stated that the Mount Whitney will deliver 17 tons of humanitarian aid to that country, including clothes, juice, dry milk and hygienic supplies.
In the Russian Black Sea Fleet, they expect the Mount Whitney to coordinate the activities of the NATO naval group in the Black Sea. They expect the ship to dock at Batumi.

The American survey ship Pathfinder docked at Sevastopol at the invitation of Ukraine on Thursday. The scientific research ship Alliance is located near the Bosporus and Dardanelles flying a NATO flag. It is also capable of recognizance functions.

The American destroyer McFaul left the Black Sea on Wednesday. There are a total of six NATO military ships in the Black Sea, of which three are American, one Polish, one Spanish and one German.

http://www.kommersant.com/page.asp?id=-13155
joepilsudskiThreads: 44
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Joined: Apr 27, 07  Pictures: 1 		Edited by: joepilsudski   Sep 5, 08, 13:29 /  #
How unified is NATO?

NATO is simply a 'trojan horse' for Wall Street/Rothschild Syndicate...Until you understand this, you can't understand the problem...When, say, an owner of a corporation has property, infra-structure and resources to protect, what does he do?...First, he goes to the local police, then he hires 'security contractors' to be watchdogs...This is the role of NATO in relation to corporate interests in the US/EU....When, however, a 'competing' business interest has it's own police (Russia) who are also capable, then we have a problem...Some EU leaders, I would suggest maybe Merkel, Berlesconi have doubts about certain strategies for NATO...So, you have a 'fragmentation'...Just like in 'mafias', sometimes you have gang wars when opposing interests come into conflict...Europeans have seen two major wars, and the more reasonable leaders don't want a third...Russia included...And also understand, Wall Street bankers, EU bureacrats and the like don't fight in wars themselves, or send their children...they make money from the blood spilled...to them, human lives are valued as you would an automobile...they run a 'blood bank'.
CrowThreads: 367
Posts: 7,316
Joined: Feb 14, 07  Pictures: 1 [Suspended]		 Edited by: Crow   Sep 5, 08, 14:03 /  #
How unified is NATO?

actually, I do believe that NATO is strongly unified. Its because, elite of so called west established strong control over subjugated dominions. Key word of that control, once was `progress`. Today, it is `fear`

But, when comes to conflicts connected with Slavic world, NATO does not have answer. It’s because of still existing non-viable bonds which connects Slavs. On the level of sub-conciseness, Slavs are simple still aware that they belong to same civilization. It is our mental respond on violent destruction of freedom of Slavs and era of slavery which occurred then. After all, all what exist; from physical beings to the ethoses and ideas tend to survive. Its natural

Anyway, even religious differences failed to destroy Slavs as unique civilization… and what is NATO in comparison with that challenge.
celinskiThreads: 83
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Crow:

NATO does not have answer



They do answer in a whisper that only time will show.
CrowThreads: 367
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Joined: Feb 14, 07  Pictures: 1 [Suspended]		   Sep 5, 08, 14:20 /  #
celinski:

They do answer in a whisper that only time will show.

maybe NATO whisper but, idea of Sarmatia Europae already flow on the Net

nor NATO with complete false west, nor Russia shouldn`t rule us.

mark my words
celinskiThreads: 83
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Crow:

nor Russia shouldn`t rule us.


If Russia attacks Poland will your people come to Poland defence?
CrowThreads: 367
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Joined: Feb 14, 07  Pictures: 1 [Suspended]		 Edited by: Crow   Sep 5, 08, 15:30 /  #
celinski:

If Russia attacks Poland will your people come to Poland defence?

in case of Polish war with Russia, it would be NATO war with Russia, this way or another. In this very moment, Serbians won`t side by side with NATO soldiers. Serbians would rather choose to side with Russia against NATO.

BUT, here we speak about POLAND. So, in that particular case (if come to that conflict) Serbians won`t be available nor for Russians, nor for Poland. Serbs should and i know they would stay neutral, same as (i believe) Czehs, Slovaks, Ukrainians, Byelorussians, Slovenians, Macedonians, Bulgarians, etc normal Slavs

i am sure that if Poland abanden NATO, Serbian inteligentsia can do a lot of to prevent and stop all eventual atampts of some `Russian` circles who would eventualy try to destabilize Poland. Turkish and Austro-Hungarian occupation is over (just NATO hold Kosovo-Metohija under occupation), Serbia returned to political scene of Slavic world and Europe. Russians would listen, Russians won`t dare

I am sure, Russia won`t made same mistakes from past. Russia already have to choose- Germany or Serbia for her strategic partnership. With parthership with Serbia, Russia obliges on partnership with Poland, too. That`s how it is

just go out of NATO Poles. Without `help` of NATO you at least have a chance. With NATO, even if NATO wins, you lose

Accept your responsibilities for Slavdom and Sarmatia Europae, Poles!
sloThreads: 2
Posts: 85
Joined: Nov 26, 07 		  Sep 8, 08, 23:01 /  #
Should the Ukraine be allowed to join NATO?
Every nation in this World supposed to be granted with membership prospective to join NATO if they respect values of modern cicilization. Ukrainians do.
SashaThreads: 2
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Joined: Apr 19, 08  Pictures: 1 		  Sep 8, 08, 23:15 /  #
slo:

Every nation in this World supposed to be granted with membership prospective to join NATO


Why are you that convinced that joining NATO is a privelege everybody should dream of? List please... let's say five good things, five reasons for joining NATO.
sloThreads: 2
Posts: 85
Joined: Nov 26, 07 		Edited by: slo   Sep 8, 08, 23:35 /  #
Sasha, I wont argue for or against NATO here, this is not the point. I have made direct answer to direct question. Ukraine with all here history showed up how loyal this state and this nation to democratic world, to Europe and its values. If we do mistakes - every nation does mistakes, those are our mistakes thanks to God.
SashaThreads: 2
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Joined: Apr 19, 08  Pictures: 1 		Edited by: Sasha   Sep 8, 08, 23:39 /  #
slo:

I have made direct answer to direct question.


Oh, I see this is kinda thing "according to democratic values every should have a right to commit suicide". No irony. I agree.

UPD:
slo:

Ukraine with all here history showed up how loyal this state and this nation to democratic world, to Europe and its values.


Anti-NATO demonstrations however prove the contrary. That's I think out of place to represent view of all the Ukranians by the only your point.
sloThreads: 2
Posts: 85
Joined: Nov 26, 07 		Edited by: slo   Sep 8, 08, 23:45 /  #
Sasha, Ukraine is a democratic state. Have you seen anti NATO demonstrations in Ukraine only? In Ukraine it is mostly red old people, some 100-200 ortodoxalni babuszki :-) Of course Russian nationalists even young may be seen too, but they are marginal in Ukraine.
SashaThreads: 2
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Joined: Apr 19, 08  Pictures: 1 		Edited by: Sasha   Sep 8, 08, 23:52 /  #
slo:

Ukraine is a democratic state


Every state is more or less democratic as well as more or less totalitarian. It depends on what government wants at the particular moment.

slo:

Have you seen anti NATO demonstrations in Ukraine only?


That much only in Ukraine. You should comprehend at that point I don't care about Zimbabwe.

slo:

In Ukraine it is mostly red old people, ortodoxalni babuszki


They're still people. No matter red or white (that's exclusivelly of your personal preference) they're heritage of the whole your nation.
UPD:
slo:

Of course Russian nationalists even young may be seen too, but they are marginal in Ukraine.


No wonder. Russian nationalists are marginal in Russia as well.
sloThreads: 2
Posts: 85
Joined: Nov 26, 07 		  Sep 9, 08, 01:09 /  #
No wonder. Russian nationalists are marginal in Russia as well
I must agree we use different deifiniitions for "nationalists". To me such Russian gvnmt backed youth movement like Naszi or Euroasians are nothing more then strong nationalists. You probably call them "patriots" over there :-)
SashaThreads: 2
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slo:

Naszi or Euroasians are nothing more then strong nationalists. You probably call them "patriots" over there


Some do call. I don't.
ConstantineKThreads: 35
Posts: 1,949
Joined: May 10, 07 		  Sep 9, 08, 04:35 /  #
Sasha:


No wonder. Russian nationalists are marginal in Russia as well.


Certainly you understimate the influence of nationalists in Russia. I suppose that about 80% of population has nationalistic views (and surprizingly, not even Russians)... SLAVA ROSSII
lesserThreads: 7
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Joined: Oct 19, 07 		Edited by: lesser   Sep 9, 08, 12:42 /  #
slo:

Every nation in this World supposed to be granted with membership prospective to join NATO if they respect values of modern cicilization. Ukrainians do.


You would wish Ukraine to join organization about which you know little about. This is not true that every state in the world have a chance to join. This is euro-atlantic pact. Also this is a pact between states and not nations.

slo:

Ukraine with all here history showed up how loyal this state and this nation to democratic world, to Europe and its values.


One could argue.... Anyway history doesn't matter, either Ukraine is reliable ally or not. Today's Ukraine is a huge mess and you know it.

I don't oppose Ukrainian membership by all means, however I would not wish Russian agents to have too much influence on NATO.

Sasha:

Oh, I see this is kinda thing "according to democratic values every should have a right to commit suicide". No irony. I agree.


What is so suicidal in joining NATO? Russian leaders always babbling that they oppose 'so much' when post-Soviet countries or satellites want to join. Later nothing happening.
sloThreads: 2
Posts: 85
Joined: Nov 26, 07 		  Sep 10, 08, 10:54 /  #
Today's Ukraine is a huge mess and you know it
As an Ukrainian I don't know it. You probably know it better reading propaganda stuff. Ukraine is a new democracy, this is quite different from "mess" you must agree.
lesserThreads: 7
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Joined: Oct 19, 07 		  Sep 10, 08, 12:53 /  #
slo:

As an Ukrainian I don't know it. You probably know it better reading propaganda stuff. Ukraine is a new democracy, this is quite different from "mess" you must agree.


Perhaps this is just your wishful thinking? You are from Canada, so your source of information is propaganda as well. Some people can find out proper conclusions even reading propaganda. However you don't sound very realistic.

Btw, democracy they have in Switzerland, certainly not in Ukraine.
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