Problems of renting in the Polish market

spiritus wrote:

Can we please try and keep to my original post instead of hurtling personal insults at each other ??

Falkster made a few statements that I also disagreed with but can we try and be civil about it instead of trying to belittle him ??

inkrakow wrote:

the tenants are better protected here in Poland

joo who wrote:

You tenants need to understand that witout us landlords your address would be "second hedgerow on the right"

joo who wrote:

....or perhaps that hole that Bubbawoo has pointed out you are busy digging for yourself????

joo who wrote:

Did you know that if your tenant is in receipt of housing benefit (Loads of them are) and this benefit is paid direct to the landlord (seems fair??) and then the tenant is found to be fraudulently claiming this benefit (loads of them ARE!)....the LANDLORD is responsible for repaying the debt!! Now, I can see how any reasonably sane person might have thought the UK law favoured the landlord.....(DOH!).

joo who wrote:

we would SELL them (at a capital profit!) and bank the money and make money off the interest instead!

inkrakow wrote:

It took 3 years for my cousin in Warsaw to gain repossession of one of his flats after the tenants stopped paying.

spiritusThreads: 53 Posts: 253 Joined: Oct 25, 06	Jan 23, 08, 15:56 / #
I often hear conflicting advice about renting properties out in Poland. Some say don't do it as Polish laws are weighted towards the tenant and even if a tenant stops paying you rent you cannot throw them out too easily. Any thoughts ?

helloThreads: 37 Posts: 1,104 Joined: Dec 5, 06	Jan 23, 08, 18:21 / #
It could be hard to tell - it's better to have someone you know and trust to superivse your property.

HarryThreads: 62 Posts: 8,508 Joined: May 2, 07 [Suspended]	Jan 24, 08, 09:35 / #
spiritus wrote: Polish laws are weighted towards the tenant and even if a tenant stops paying you rent you cannot throw them out too easily. It is very difficult to get tenants out of rented accommodation (well, it's difficult to do it legally). Even if they do stop paying rent, you can't get them out for at least four months and the maximum amount you can recover is the amount of the rent they owe you.

spiritusThreads: 53 Posts: 253 Joined: Oct 25, 06	Jan 24, 08, 13:48 / #
yes. A friend of mine once changed the locks whilst his non-paying tenant was out.

szkotja2007Threads: 38 Posts: 2,544 Joined: Dec 29, 06	Jan 24, 08, 13:57 / #
Peter Rachman was born in Poland. Who he ? URL

HarryThreads: 62 Posts: 8,508 Joined: May 2, 07 [Suspended]	Jan 25, 08, 06:29 / #
spiritus wrote: A friend of mine once changed the locks whilst his non-paying tenant was out. Not clever. The tenant could have got a locksmith to remove the new lock, sued the landlord for the cost and he would have won too.

the_falksterThreads: 1 Posts: 188 Joined: Nov 15, 07	Jan 25, 08, 06:49 / #
spiritus wrote: Polish laws are weighted towards the tenant wrong. here in the uk the laws are weighted towards the landlord which might give you the above impression. over here as a tenant you have near to no rights at all. in countries were renting is far more common (as poland or germany) the leverage is far mor equal. it is for example a constitutional right to have shelter. therefor you can not simply get someone out of your property because you do not like his nose anymore (here in england that would work!). also landlords actually have to pay out the interest gained on any deposit given by the tenant. in england? they try everything to not even pay the deposit back at all, let alone talking about interest... it is an endless list... however... people invest in poland and let their properties... would they do it if it was that bad?

spiritusThreads: 53 Posts: 253 Joined: Oct 25, 06	Jan 25, 08, 11:58 / #
the_falkster wrote: in countries were renting is far more common (as poland or germany) the leverage is far mor equal. it is for example a constitutional right to have shelter. therefor you can not simply get someone out of your property because you do not like his nose anymore (here in england that would work!). I'm not sure I agree. If a tenant doesn't like the property they are renting then they have the option to move out. The landlord should also have the option to evict a tenant in certain cases for example if the tenant shows no intention of paying rent or if the tenant causes intentional damage to the building etc I agree a landlord should NOT evict a tenant if he simply doesn't like the look of him but there has to be some balance here and tenants shouldn't expect to live in a private property rent free.

the_falksterThreads: 1 Posts: 188 Joined: Nov 15, 07	Edited by: the_falkster Jan 25, 08, 13:20 / #
spiritus wrote: spiritus that is exactly what i said. and in many places on the continent this is practised since ages, whereas the rental market in the uk is still in its infancy. naturally therefor you have a pro-landlord system. once renting becomes more common (which will inevitably happen with house prices being too high), the leverage will change as the number of people renting will be big enough to be recognisable... that is when there will be a change to normal conditions as we have them for example in germany or poland already. just an example: over here what possibilities as a tenant do i have if my boiler breaks down (which is part of the property as it was in the house already) over here to get it fixed? if the landlord is a bit on the rubbish side and does not fix it, i will be cold in winter and no one cares... in germany for example i have the right to pay less rent (a certain percentage depending on how essential the broken down appliance is) until it gets fixed. or after a few letters i can get it fixed and pass the bill on straight to the landlord... over here in the uk it is not widely recognised yet that as a tenant you should have some rights too. i pay rent for something and if it doesn't work i should be able to do something about it. imagine you rent a video (or dvd) and when you want to watch it, it does not work... would you pay for it?

BubbaWooThreads: 46 Posts: 4,438 Joined: Sep 26, 06	Jan 25, 08, 13:34 / #
the_falkster wrote: the rental market in the uk is still in its infancy. really? why do you think this?

ct11Threads: 2 Posts: 14 Joined: Dec 31, 07	Jan 26, 08, 12:40 / #
I'm 40 and was working in Loondon for 20 years renting 7-10 apartments a week..........the rental market in England is as infant as a 100 year old pensioner.... Your false the Falkster..............

joo whoThreads: - Posts: 114 Joined: Dec 10, 07	Edited by: joo who Jan 26, 08, 17:49 / #
Ha ha!! Uk landlady here! I sooooo wish the UK law and legislation was on the side of the landlord (or lady...I AM a lady, really!!) ...It would have saved me endless hassle! Like a 2000 mile round trip to redecorate a house supposed to be left neutral, but painted Barbie pink, to replace broken tiles, a broken hand basin, broken patio slabs, and to remove crude graffiti from natural wood doors in an 18 month old house....How does the landlord recover these sort of costs form a poxy deposit?? And the 5% interest on the deposit doesn't help at all! Incidentally, all new Uk tenancy deposits are held in a government fund now...NOT by the landlord.....and if the rent stops coming, or the rules are broken, or the house is broken(!) all UK landlords face a lengthy and costly eviction process, often sending good money after bad, while keeping up those mortgage payments!! As for Poland...I know little about the rental market here, only that a young couple I know who are renting have just received their notice to quit in 3 months time, and they have not even contemplated hanging around, not paying rent, changing locks etc....maybe I should suggest this to them if Polish law really is so pro-tenant?? If they were in Uk, the landlord could NOT force them to move without a court eviction order...which takes easily the 4 months that Harry refers to...so if anything both Poland AND UK rental market favours the tenant?? Rental market in its infancy??????? That's some OLD infant!!! My parents were landlords when I was a baby!! And they were by no means pioneers of property trends!! Maybe the difference in UK is that the majority of people with a decent job will try to get a mortgage and BUY a property... because if you are not a house owner you tend to be treated like a second class citizen when it comes to banks and credit ...so what do you do for a living Falkster?? Just curious! Obviously not property developer!! Oh, just read your profile...an architect, no less?? So you should know better about the UK property market, rental or otherwise, and if you were wise you would have bought into it before the price rises...these were easy to forecast in many parts of the UK...no crystal balls needed...just balls needed..perhaps this was the problem?

joo whoThreads: - Posts: 114 Joined: Dec 10, 07	Jan 27, 08, 04:23 / #
the_falkster wrote: that really wasn't necessary, was it? disqulifies you as a "lady" as you call yourself... and also downvalues the fair points you made before... Sorry if I kicked you where it hurt?? And maybe you're right ....as I HAVE got the balls to play the property game..and move to Poland alone...I can't possibly be a lady!! Retract what you said about the UK rental market favouring the landlord (It doesn't!) and about it being in its infancy (It isn't!) and you may get a full blown apology for my below the belt remark!

joo whoThreads: - Posts: 114 Joined: Dec 10, 07	Jan 27, 08, 13:36 / #
spiritus wrote: It's not as if he said you all have ugly children ! Much more interseting topic!! My kids are STUNNING!! All seven of them!

spiritusThreads: 53 Posts: 253 Joined: Oct 25, 06	Jan 25, 08, 16:11 / #
Falkster, I agree with your sentiment but but you seem to be supporting the Polish model of tenancy protection which I personally think isn't fair. If a tenant doesn't pay rent then why on earth should the landlord not be allowed to kick him out ??

Landlord	Jan 25, 08, 17:50 / #
the_falkster wrote: whereas the rental market in the uk is still in its infancy. Not quite true I think ! the_falkster wrote: over here in the uk it is not widely recognised yet that as a tenant you should have some rights too Erm, which UK are you talking about ? I think you do not know the current legislation for England and Wales , do you ? Tenants are very well protected.

the_falksterThreads: 1 Posts: 188 Joined: Nov 15, 07	Jan 26, 08, 10:08 / #
Landlord wrote: Tenants are very well protected. yeah, right... ever been renting on the continent? apparently not... believe me i rented in germany and in the uk. NO comparison. in the uk you are still a second class human if you are renting... so why is it that as a landlord you get the interest my deposit earns over the years for example? there is absolutely no reasonable justification for this... Landlord wrote: Not quite true I think ! proove it, instead of just making a remark like that... tell me about the percentages in renting in the uk compared to for example poland or germany... Landlord wrote: Erm, which UK are you talking about ? well. make a guess. the choice of your temporary nick shows quite clearly which side of the story you are from... unfortunately you fail to mention anything to support your claims... i can only hope that you act differently as a landlord...

BubbaWooThreads: 46 Posts: 4,438 Joined: Sep 26, 06	Jan 26, 08, 10:18 / #
the_falkster wrote: proove it, instead of just making a remark like that... mate, you made the rediculous statement claiming that the rental market in the uk is in its infancy - the onus is on you to back this claim i am a landlord - the pittance i make from interest on tenants deposits doesnt even cover the cost of wipping their sticky little finger prints off the walls of my property

the_falksterThreads: 1 Posts: 188 Joined: Nov 15, 07	Jan 26, 08, 11:17 / #
as matter of fact the number of people living in their own property is one the lowest within the eu in germany. ergo in the uk there are more people living in their own property and less people are renting. if you look into the legislation... the "rulebook" in germany contains a few more pages than over here. tell me. why is none of the landlords so far answering any of my questions in previous posts?? i made a couple of comparisons and there are no answers... BubbaWoo wrote: the pittance i make from interest on tenants deposits doesnt even cover the cost of wipping their sticky little finger prints off the walls of my property unfortunately that exactly confirms what i was saying earlier. the right of the tenant goes apparently not very far and the usual landlord will try everything to keep the deposit at the end of the tenancy... don't get me wrong, if a tenant really causes damage to your property you as the owner should have every right to keep the deposit to cover the cost and even throw people out of your property. normal wear though is not to be covered by the deposit but by an allowance you calculate into your monthly rent... remember the original question of this thread? i simply try to show WHY there might be the impression that there are pro tenant laws on the continent compared to the situation over here in the uk. the legislation over here is less detailed and worked through and most certainly in favour of the property owner... try to compare a german tenancy contract to a uk one... the german one is at least twice the size to cover all (well... most) eventualities...

BubbaWooThreads: 46 Posts: 4,438 Joined: Sep 26, 06	Edited by: BubbaWoo Jan 26, 08, 11:40 / #
the_falkster wrote: tell me. why is none of the landlords so far answering any of my questions in previous posts?? why have you not answered my question about why you think the rental market is in its infancy in the uk - all you have said is that in the uk there are more people living in their own property and less people are renting, which hardly answers anything... the original question of the thread asked about rental problems in the polish market - and was answered straightforwardly; there are problems in the polish rental market because legislation favours the tenant. does the law allow me to eat for free in a restaurant, and if not, why should somebody live for free in my property? i would also say from what you have written that you have only ever been on one side of the rental book, do you even own property? the_falkster wrote: unfortunately that exactly confirms what i was saying earlier it actually dismisses your argument about interest values of deposits held - which is rarely enough to quibble about...

the_falksterThreads: 1 Posts: 188 Joined: Nov 15, 07	Jan 27, 08, 03:01 / #
spiritus wrote: If a tenant doesn't pay rent then why on earth should the landlord not be allowed to kick him out sorry, i missed your post earlier. i never said that you should not be able to cancel your side of the contract if someone else does not stick to it. but as you both have a contract to fulfill there are rules how to get out of it... for both sides. a tenant should have the right though to reduce the rent if something within the property is faulty and the landlord (or in many cases a letting agency) refuses to do the repair. the rent in this case is the only lever the tenant has. if i buy a jacket in a shop and i really like it but there is a button missing i get a rebate as well. that is fair... as for all other answers... you all simply do not get my point and instead pick on some controversial statements i made to provoke some thought here... trouble is that i actually get exactly the answers i expected. landlords here clearly believe they are monarchs within the boundaries of their properties and it should be them who make the rules, not some government... you landlords have to understand that without tenants you would not be able to make any money out of your properties. it is some kind of co-existence... the number of people renting is on the rise due to the recent development of houseprices and therefor less people being able to afford a mortgage. so there is a need to review the legislation as the group of people renting is no longer a minority (in political terms). that is what i mean when i speak of infancy. NOT the simple view of time... joo who wrote: because if you are not a house owner you tend to be treated like a second class citizen when it comes to banks and credit didn't i say exactly that somewhere above?? joo who wrote: an architect, no less?? So you should know better about the UK property market, rental or otherwise i know what i need to know. my job is to design the things you rent, no less. no politics involved on my side... joo who wrote: you would have bought into it before the price rises...these were easy to forecast in many parts of the UK why i didn't buy? hmmm... let's think. i simply haven't been here yet before the prices rose that ridiculously... i also do not intend not to stay here for ever and the profit i might make by reselling after a few years is in the current situation eaten away buy fees, taxes and generally the hassle of the whole thing... in your position i would be a bit more hesitant before making any assumptions. but, of course, you used your crystal ball and know my situation well enough to make the following statement... joo who wrote: just balls needed..perhaps this was the problem? that really wasn't necessary, was it? disqulifies you as a "lady" as you call yourself... and also downvalues the fair points you made before...

BubbaWooThreads: 46 Posts: 4,438 Joined: Sep 26, 06	Jan 27, 08, 04:38 / #
digging yourself into a hole i see falk

joo whoThreads: - Posts: 114 Joined: Dec 10, 07	Jan 27, 08, 07:12 / #
More, there's even more while I'm ranting about the UK landlord being oh so highly favoured (Ahem!)...Did you know that if your tenant is in receipt of housing benefit (Loads of them are) and this benefit is paid direct to the landlord (seems fair??) and then the tenant is found to be fraudulently claiming this benefit (loads of them ARE!)....the LANDLORD is responsible for repaying the debt!! Now, I can see how any reasonably sane person might have thought the UK law favoured the landlord.....(DOH!). the_falkster wrote: landlords have to understand that without tenants you would not be able to make any money out of your properties Yes we would...we would SELL them (at a capital profit!) and bank the money and make money off the interest instead! You tenants need to understand that witout us landlords your address would be "second hedgerow on the right"....or perhaps that hole that Bubbawoo has pointed out you are busy digging for yourself???? At this point I am taking myself off for a LONG walk! I obviously am still suffering nicotine withdrawal....either that or someone touched a nerve??!

spiritusThreads: 53 Posts: 253 Joined: Oct 25, 06	Jan 27, 08, 12:27 / #
Can we please try and keep to my original post instead of hurtling personal insults at each other ?? Falkster made a few statements that I also disagreed with but can we try and be civil about it instead of trying to belittle him ?? It's not as if he said you all have ugly children !

spiritusThreads: 53 Posts: 253 Joined: Oct 25, 06	Jan 27, 08, 13:45 / #
spiritus wrote: hurtling personal insults "hurtling"....."hurling" hmmmmm they both seem to work :)

joo whoThreads: - Posts: 114 Joined: Dec 10, 07	Jan 27, 08, 15:05 / #
joo who wrote: Much more interseting Interesting...interseting....these both work too! So...let's get serious...any landlords of Polish property out there??? Is there a strong rental market?? Seriously considering throwing in 3 UK properties and maybe investing in Poland, buy to let, ...which is why i started reading this topic ..... but I appear to have learned very little so far...(partly as a result of my own deviation) (nothing pervey there so no-one get excited ok??) anyone able to educate me??? I'm a fab student!! (Talking property now..not deviancy!). I'm also a fab landlady...as long as you keep away from the Barbie pink paint tins!

BubbaWooThreads: 46 Posts: 4,438 Joined: Sep 26, 06	Jan 27, 08, 15:13 / #
joo who wrote: Is there a strong rental market?? depends what exactly you mean by strong - if you want rental income to cover your mortgage payments then no, its not particularly strong if, on the other hand you just want to rent your property out then there are potentially plenty of tenents

inkrakow	Jan 27, 08, 15:59 / #
I rent out property both here and in the UK and IMHO the tenants are better protected here in Poland, namely because the courts generally won't evict anyone unless they have somewhere else to go to. It doesn't matter if the tenants are sitting/protected tenants or long term (over 3 year) tenants and if the tenants are over 75 and they don't want to move somewhere else, they can stay there for the rest of their lives. I've had to buy another flat to move one set of sitting tenants in to, and pay off a couple of others. Also, through the gross negligence of my family, we have a tenant who has been here over 3 years which seems to mean she basically acquires the same rights as a sitting tenant. So now I move new tenants on before they have been here for 3 years, and luckily that has worked so far because Krakow has so many students and there is always demand. But if they wanted to stop paying, it's a long and complicated process to move them on through the civil courts - there are no assured shorthold tenancies here. It took 3 years for my cousin in Warsaw to gain repossession of one of his flats after the tenants stopped paying.

joo whoThreads: - Posts: 114 Joined: Dec 10, 07	Jan 27, 08, 16:14 / #
inkrakow wrote: It took 3 years for my cousin in Warsaw to gain repossession ...If that happened to me i would lose it.....especially if the rent was being witheld and/or the property neglected....Think I would end up in jail!! Okay...that maybe resolves that one...if we sell up all UK property I can buy a shed full of horses!! ;0) My other half will be SO pleased!!

the_falksterThreads: 1 Posts: 188 Joined: Nov 15, 07	Jan 28, 08, 03:19 / #
spiritus wrote: Can we please try and keep to my original post instead of hurtling personal insults at each other ?? Falkster made a few statements that I also disagreed with but can we try and be civil about it instead of trying to belittle him ?? reasonable comment... thanks. inkrakow wrote: the tenants are better protected here in Poland which confirms exactly what i said as this means that compared to poland (or germany where i have more experience from), in the uk the landlord is more favoured... so i don't really understand why one certain person is throwing all those insults at me... joo who wrote: You tenants need to understand that witout us landlords your address would be "second hedgerow on the right" i am really thankful that you allow some tenants to pay off your mortgage... the world would be a sad place without people like you... ;) joo who wrote: ....or perhaps that hole that Bubbawoo has pointed out you are busy digging for yourself???? which again confirms that many (not all!) landlords over here seem to see people who are renting as 2nd class beings... joo who wrote: Did you know that if your tenant is in receipt of housing benefit (Loads of them are) and this benefit is paid direct to the landlord (seems fair??) and then the tenant is found to be fraudulently claiming this benefit (loads of them ARE!)....the LANDLORD is responsible for repaying the debt!! Now, I can see how any reasonably sane person might have thought the UK law favoured the landlord.....(DOH!). it is YOUR property, so YOU should be able to decide who you are renting it to, right? joo who wrote: we would SELL them (at a capital profit!) and bank the money and make money off the interest instead! see. that would solve your problem then... why all that moaning then?? did anybody ever say that the property business is easy money? inkrakow wrote: It took 3 years for my cousin in Warsaw to gain repossession of one of his flats after the tenants stopped paying. well... that sounds so not right to me. if they simply stop paying there should be a mechanism in place to speed that up. 3 years is by far too long and unreasonable... BubbaWoo wrote: digging yourself into a hole not really... my initial statement was just confirmed (top in this post)...