Animosity between Poland vrs. Polonia?

Piorun wrote:

By recent I mean people born in Poland, not second or third generation with an image of 19th century Poland. So to dismiss them as people with no connection to Poland and its politics is false. After all it?s what they have fought for when they were 20 or so.

DiceThreads: 20 Posts: 677 Joined: Nov 27, 07	Jan 31, 08, 10:25 / #
Sometimes I get a feeling there is a certain amount of animosity between Polish People permanently living abroad and the people in Poland. Polish people in Poland sometimes are distrustful, envious and even hostile towards Polish living abroad. On the other hand they accuse Poles living abroad of looking down and frowning upon Poland. In their opinion, if you decided to leave Poland and settle down elsewhere, take on a different citizenship, or you were born outside Poland, then you shouldn't call yourself a Polish anymore. They don't like when Polonia votes in Polish elections, and to be honest I can see their point.

WroclawThreads: 77 Posts: 7,404 Joined: Apr 1, 06 [Moderator]	Jan 31, 08, 10:35 / #
Dice wrote: They don't like when Polonia votes in Polish elections, I don't like it either. But it was pointed out to me [on these boards] that those who vote could well be voting for their future. A future when they return to Poland. People who have no intention of returning shouldn't vote in my opinion. Problem is we don't know who these people are. So the only fair way, it seems, is to let them all vote.

z_dariusThreads: 22 Posts: 5,091 Joined: Oct 18, 07	Jan 31, 08, 10:41 / #
Wroclaw wrote: I don't like it either. But it was pointed out to me [on these boards] that those who vote could well be voting for their future. A future when they return to Poland. I made a conscious decision not to vote in Polish elections as I feel I have no right to decide about other people's lives from afar. As for "voting for their future" when/if I return then that's when I would vote: to put it simply - I'm not gonna call home and tell them what they should serve for dinner tonight if I am on a trip 2000 miles away. When I come back then I'll be in a position to ask for what I want.

plk123Threads: 30 Posts: 6,412 Joined: Aug 29, 07	Jan 31, 08, 10:42 / #
Dice wrote: They don't like when Polonia votes in Polish elections, and to be honest I can see their point. **** them... i am 100% polish and they can't do a damn thing about it.. too bad they weren't smart enought ot get the hell out of dodge and had to put up with stupid commie bs. jelousy drives them nuts. breslau, polish is polish.. polonia has the same rights as thos inside the country.. too bad it pisses you off. haha

SadekThreads: 7 Posts: 231 Joined: Jan 11, 08	Edited by: Sadek Jan 31, 08, 10:48 / #
plk123 wrote: breslau, polish is polish.. polonia has the same rights as thos inside the country.. too bad it pisses you off. haha no you havent. Do all Americans with British origin have right to vote in UK elections ? I think we should think about changing our law. Now Poland isn't occupied and if they want to vote they can come back here and vote for their future. If they don't want to come back they shouldn't vote. I think solution that only emigrants who live abroad shorter than 8 years should vote is ok.

z_dariusThreads: 22 Posts: 5,091 Joined: Oct 18, 07	Jan 31, 08, 10:50 / #
Sadek wrote: Do all Americans with British origin have right to vote in UK elections ? No. Only the ones who have British citizenship. Same for Poles. Sadek wrote: I think solution that only emigrants who live abroad shorter than 8 years should vote is ok. Not 9?

SadekThreads: 7 Posts: 231 Joined: Jan 11, 08	Jan 31, 08, 10:55 / #
z_darius wrote: Not 9? I think we should do somethnig with this phenomen that people who don't want to live in Poland (free) who prefere american guns and cars than our life style should vote. We live here and we chose people who will decide about our future. It is enought to see how Americans Poles voted in all electons. They were agains Poland in EU. They voted on LPR (radio Maryja) later on PiS. Where we would be if we lisned them ... Bielarus

jkn005Threads: 3 Posts: 166 Joined: Jan 29, 08	Jan 31, 08, 11:02 / #
plk123 wrote: **** them... i am 100% polish and they can't do a damn thing about it.. too bad they weren't smart enought ot get the hell out of dodge and had to put up with stupid commie bs. jelousy drives them nuts. That kind of thinking is probably why they don't like Polish abroad. I've argued with Polish here that Polish in U.S. are Polish. To them if you've never lived here, your not Polish. Their thinking is you really have no idea what it's like. Many believe that although you might share some certain culture similarities, your not paying taxes here, your not paying anything to support the country. I'm American so I do know what it's like to have heritage and country. But from most of the conversations I've had it doesn't work the same here in their thinking. "Getting out of dodge" wasn't exactly an option for everyone. Now you can have a Polish citizenship sure, but does that mean you really have any clue of the daily issues going on here? It's the same with Polish talking about their American brothers, they have no clue what life is like in the U.S. They have bits and pieces, most of which tend to be more positive. However you can't really decide what is best for a country you don't live in. PiS for example and more specifically the twins were making Poles look pretty bad across Europe. Yet in the United States they were the highest voted party. When inside the country it was completely opposite. The U.S. was the only country outside of Poland that voted this way. Wroclaw wrote: A future when they return to Poland. Why the future? Why not now? Because most likely they never will move back. It's the same as Cubans in Miami, they won't move back. They say they will but they won't.

DiceThreads: 20 Posts: 677 Joined: Nov 27, 07	Jan 31, 08, 11:16 / #
z_darius wrote: No. Only the ones who have British citizenship. Same for Poles. I believe that last Polish elections they had here (US) you didn't need a Polish Passport or any other documents. All you had to do was to say you were Polish. That's all.

z_dariusThreads: 22 Posts: 5,091 Joined: Oct 18, 07	Jan 31, 08, 11:20 / #
Sadek wrote: I think we should do somethnig with this phenomen that people who don't want to live in Poland (free) who prefere american guns and cars than our life style should vote. That is kinda silly. What's the problem with American guns. It's not like they can buy Polish guns so easilly. Not to mention Polish cars. Are Japanese or German cars OK? Do Poles in Poland all drive Polish cars? Sadek wrote: It is enought to see how Americans Poles voted in all electons. There is quite a bit of Polonia outside the US. Did you realize that? What about Poles living permamantly in Germany, who can be in Poland every weekend just because Germany is closer to Poland than the US? Should they have different rights than Poles in North America? Sadek wrote: They were agains Poland in EU. They voted on LPR (radio Maryja) later on PiS. It's not like Polish elections were decided by a hair where Polonia vote was decisive. Are all these "Mohair Berets" the result of the Polonia vote? Was Radio Maryja imported from the US? Again, personally I would not vote in Polish election while living permamantly abroad, but you need to provide reasons better than the ones you did. Dice wrote: I believe that last Polish elections they had here (US) you didn't need a Polish Passport or any other documents. All you had to do was to say you were Polish. You can't blame Polonia for that. This is a problem with Poland's government.

Grzegorz_Threads: 81 Posts: 6,213 Joined: Nov 16, 06	Jan 31, 08, 13:18 / #
Dice wrote: All you had to do was to say you were Polish. That's all. And you expect to be treated seriously ? Michal wrote: Yes, definitly and this is especially true of the younger generation. I find young Polish people in England very nasty indeed I find the kmiot a f. idiot, who can't even understand one line of simple English text.

jkn005Threads: 3 Posts: 166 Joined: Jan 29, 08	Jan 31, 08, 11:23 / #
z_darius wrote: You can't blame Polonia for that. This is a problem with Poland's government. No that is a problem with PiS.

DaveyThreads: 17 Posts: 436 Joined: Jun 29, 07	Jan 31, 08, 11:27 / #
jkn005 wrote: To them if you've never lived here, your not Polish. And it's funny because I know several Polish kids who never lived there but they went to the weekend Polish school, took Polish dancing, speak/write/read Polish fluently, I think I would consider them Polish

jkn005Threads: 3 Posts: 166 Joined: Jan 29, 08	Jan 31, 08, 11:28 / #
Davey wrote: And it's funny because I know several Polish kids who never lived there but they went to the weekend Polish school, took Polish dancing, speak/write/read Polish fluently, I think I would consider them Polish I agree actually. However they don't feel this way. Just because you speak and write in english doesn't make you English in their minds. This is what they say to me.

z_dariusThreads: 22 Posts: 5,091 Joined: Oct 18, 07	Jan 31, 08, 11:31 / #
jkn005 wrote: No that is a problem with PiS. Are they a faction of American Polonia?

DaveyThreads: 17 Posts: 436 Joined: Jun 29, 07	Edited by: Davey Jan 31, 08, 11:31 / #
jkn005 wrote: I agree actually. However they don't feel this way. Just because you speak and write in english doesn't make you English in their minds. This is what they say to me. I guess they don't realize there is a lot of Polish culture and traditions abroad

jkn005Threads: 3 Posts: 166 Joined: Jan 29, 08	Edited by: jkn005 Jan 31, 08, 11:38 / #
Davey wrote: I guess they don't realize there is a lot of Polish culture and traditions abroad Think part of it is not traditions and culture. What matters to them is more of a common experience of life within a country. Sure you can take the good from the culture and celebrate it, but if you don't experience the hardships they experience as well, your not "Polish". It's hard for me to understand to be honest. I'd argue Poles are not the only ones that think this way. If you were to ask a German or French they most likely will say the same. Do French consider those in Quebec to be French? Probably not. I would presume it's very similar. Americans and Canadians are immigrants. We are all people from another country. So for us it makes perfect sense to call ourselves Polish, French, Japanese whatever. To everyone else we are American or Canadian. z_darius wrote: Are they a faction of American Polonia No but they are strong supporters of the U.S. policies in world affairs. They also tend to fight against the EU and Russia essentially isolating themselves. There more than likely is a strong backing from American Poles based on their support for the U.S. and their stance against Russia and the E.U.

SadekThreads: 7 Posts: 231 Joined: Jan 11, 08	Edited by: Sadek Jan 31, 08, 11:46 / #
z_darius wrote: That is kinda silly. What's the problem with American guns. It's not like they can buy Polish guns so easilly I don't know person who has gun to protect family ... I know one who use it for hunting ... I think this discussion goes in wrong direction ... You feel Polish come back here and vote becuase if you vote wrong you will feel consequences ... If we lisned American Poles we would be there (In american Poles brains we are there) : surounded by enemies but independent outside the EU beging families in USA for visas to haven

DiceThreads: 20 Posts: 677 Joined: Nov 27, 07	Jan 31, 08, 11:58 / #
Sadek, in your opinion is American Polonia the biggest problem, bigger then lets say Australian, Ukrainian or French, or are they all pretty much the same?

SadekThreads: 7 Posts: 231 Joined: Jan 11, 08	Edited by: Sadek Jan 31, 08, 12:08 / #
Dice wrote: Sadek, in your opinion is American Polonia the biggest problem, bigger then lets say Australian, Ukrainian or French, or are they all pretty much the same? firstly on east there is no Polonia but Poles they haven emigrated borders have changed. it is not only about american Poles but Australian or Brazilian ... they have their imagine about Poland sometimes it is bright sometimes it is dark but mostly doesn't stick to reality. If sb feels Polish can back here and vote for future of his family I don't want some people form USA choose my future and if they choose wrong I will pay for their decisions

DiceThreads: 20 Posts: 677 Joined: Nov 27, 07	Jan 31, 08, 12:21 / #
Sadek, except for the election issue, do you feel that they (Poles living abroad) frown upon Poland when they come visit?

SadekThreads: 7 Posts: 231 Joined: Jan 11, 08	Edited by: Sadek Jan 31, 08, 12:26 / #
Dice wrote: Sadek, except for the election issue, do you feel that they (Poles living abroad) frown upon Poland when they come visit? I am very glad that some Poles from abroad feel Polish and sometimes help their old country and it is very good they learn Polish and feel connections with Poland. Some come back and are very valueable citiznes (because of their expirience) I wanted to show why they shouldn't vote.

MichalThreads: - Posts: 2,408 Joined: Feb 27, 07	Jan 31, 08, 12:35 / #
Dice wrote: Polish people in Poland sometimes are distrustful, envious and even hostile towards Polish living abroad. Yes, definitly and this is especially true of the younger generation. I find young Polish people in England very nasty indeed whereas the older generation-that is, older people visiting England for the first time to be a much nicer race of people altogether. I think it is jealosy, the young Poles see what it is like overseas and see what second and third generation Poles have taken for granted and they realize that now, they have a lot of catching up to do.

lesserThreads: 7 Posts: 2,014 Joined: Oct 19, 07	Edited by: lesser Jan 31, 08, 14:16 / #
Sadek wrote: I think solution that only emigrants who live abroad shorter than 8 years should vote is ok. This is bad solution, because you need to employ many bureaucrats around the world to verify how long those people live aboard. Simply those with Polish citizenship should be allowed to vote. Anyway, they could hardly change the results significantly. Sadek wrote: They were agains Poland in EU. They voted on LPR (radio Maryja) later on PiS. Because PO makes the difference! :)

PiorunThreads: - Posts: 741 Joined: Nov 11, 07	Jan 31, 08, 14:27 / #
Sadek wrote: You feel Polish come back here and vote becuase if you vote wrong you will feel consequences ... If we lisned American Poles we would be there (In american Poles brains we are there) : The picture that you have posted that American Poles have about Poland is your view. Have another look at it and see how narrow minded you are. Do you honestly think that people in U.S who participate in Polish elections are second or even third generation Poles? Well you’re wrong; the people who do participate in the elections are the recent arrivals to U.S with a strong connection to their homeland. Most of them have close families back in Poland and visit Poland regularly. They know Poland as it is now. While you may disagree with their point of view and feel threatened by their pro U.S. approach to politics, you have the right to vote and counterbalance that threat. After all it’s their generation that gave you that privilege, and sacrificed more than you ever will or can even imagine, so you can enjoy that privilege. Polonia in the U.S is just a microcosm of Poland itself, with all kinds of opinions. You would see that if you only traveled a bit and perhaps talk to people. Their vote reflects the struggle they themselves have undertaken many years ago. What’s your excuse? If you feel differently go and vote and stop b***** how the Polonia f* it up for you.

Grzegorz_Threads: 81 Posts: 6,213 Joined: Nov 16, 06	Jan 31, 08, 14:41 / #
Piorun wrote: Do you honestly think that people in U.S who participate in Polish elections are second or even third generation Poles? Most aren't but also most have been living in America since many years. There are very few "recent arrivals to U.S". Piorun wrote: They know Poland as it is now. This is not Belgim. This country is changing very much every 5 years at least, so people who left more than few years ago usually don't really understand what's going on here. Anyway I think that anyone with citizenship should be able to vote but he is simply right on some things.

DiceThreads: 20 Posts: 677 Joined: Nov 27, 07	Jan 31, 08, 14:47 / #
You see I don't have a Polish Passport but I was born in Poland and I've been told by this one dude I work with that to register a copy of the birth certificat is enough. I didn't vote anyway - wouldn't know who is who in Polish politics.

PiorunThreads: - Posts: 741 Joined: Nov 11, 07	Jan 31, 08, 15:05 / #
Grzegorz_ wrote: This country is changing very much every 5 years at least, so people who left more than few years ago usually don't really understand what's going on here. The people I know that do participate in Polish election travel to Poland every couple of years. Grzegorz_ wrote: Most aren't but also most have been living in America since many years. There are very few "recent arrivals to U.S". By recent I mean people born in Poland, not second or third generation with an image of 19th century Poland. So to dismiss them as people with no connection to Poland and its politics is false. After all it’s what they have fought for when they were 20 or so.

miranda	Edited by: miranda Jan 31, 08, 15:08 / #
Piorun wrote: By recent I mean people born in Poland, not second or third generation with an image of 19th century Poland. So to dismiss them as people with no connection to Poland and its politics is false. After all it?s what they have fought for when they were 20 or so. I agree. Besides, a lot of them contribute financially as well, although some people forgot to take into consideration.

przemek79Threads: 1 Posts: 18 Joined: Jan 24, 08	Jan 31, 08, 16:44 / #
My opinion is that if anybody is paying taxes here then can vote... if anyone doesn't support the country what is his/her right to decide about Polish future ?... P.