Buying a cafe or club in Wroclaw or Krakow

Wroclaw Boy:

Granted it isnt an issue the product is what counts but 90% of the clubs, Pubs and Restaurants in Wroclaw are owned by Poles not foreigners at all. Is Poznan vastly different?

Wroclaw Boy:

What they say is massively true in that foreigners will be taken to the cleaners, hook line and sinker. Any body they employ be them lawyers, legal reps, bar staff or ever will be looking to make a quick buck by any means possible and some that are not possible.

usafpjThreads: 10 Posts: 37 Joined: Mar 3, 09	Dec 23, 09, 23:20 / #
I am an American looking to purchase a cafe or club in Wroclaw or Krakow. I have some Polish friends in both cities and have asked their advice, but they are young(20) and know more about going to these places then running them. What are the purchase prices and start up costs for places near the Rynek? What are the profit margins? What are the websites to find such businesses for sale? I have never run into any such things but it is an Eastern European Country so are there bribes or pay-offs to the Police or mafia. I have found other threads that discuss what is involved in registering a new business so I am more interested in information finding the business and purchasing it from this thread. First hand experience from an expat that has started a business would be much appreciated.

dtaylor5632Threads: 49 Posts: 4,459 Joined: May 2, 09	Dec 23, 09, 23:28 / #
usafpj: What are the purchase prices and start up costs for places near the Rynek? In Krakow for a 200m2 - 400m2 it would be around 30,000-40,000pln per month. Well was when I was looking.

inkrakow	Dec 23, 09, 23:45 / #
Rent on and around the Rynek is around 100-300PLN/m2 per month, and to buy a space there with the appropriate configuration for a cafe or club would be 10-25,000PLN/m2. Offers of bars, restaurants and hotels for sale come up every now and again on krn.pl, but your best bet is to go round and ask in person as these things usually change hands through personal contacts. There's no mafia unless you're into dealing drugs or hookers and as far as I've heard from my friends who own and run bars, no need to bribe the police.

usafpjThreads: 10 Posts: 37 Joined: Mar 3, 09	Dec 24, 09, 00:04 / #
All good info so far. That's about what I thought they would cost. But what are the incomes. Every time I go out these places are packed, on Tuesdays and all days. But I go to the popular ones so that makes a difference. What is the time frame to recover my investment and how often would I have to renovate to attract new customers?

delphiandomineThreads: 42 Posts: 9,954 Joined: Nov 25, 08 [Suspended]	Dec 24, 09, 00:43 / #
There's no guarantee that you would recover your investment - there's a great example in Poznan (FBI Poznan) where the owner has seemingly spent a hell of a lot of cash in there, yet no matter what he does, the clients just aren't coming. Depending on your market, you might have to renovate quite often, or not very often at all.

usafpjThreads: 10 Posts: 37 Joined: Mar 3, 09	Dec 24, 09, 06:50 / #
My Polish is not perfect but this does not seem to fit your price estimates. Is this place 2.400mo for a 92m2 pub? That's only 26 per m2. This one is in Poznan but is there that large of a difference from Krakow? krn.pl/oferta.php?ireg=15&par=eNozjjeON4rXNYw3iAcCAxACsZEhE AEA1RwLAw&sort=1&cw=0&ct=0&show=0&f=1&offset=1730923_13_3_2_1

Think Twice	Dec 24, 09, 08:48 / #
Very few successful foreign enterprises in Poland. I suggest go to Vegas, you stand better odds. People on here should say it as it is and stop bull-shitting. Take it from me friend, there,s a load of liars on here. People like yourself log on here for helpful advise but the Poles lie to defend their shame in what its really like. Poland for Poles is their motto, so you,ll just become another victim. Sorry if this disturbs you, Save your money.

dagenhamdave	Dec 24, 09, 09:03 / #
...Think Twice is right. I'd give you 1 week before you get your first "knock-on-the-door". By the end of Week 2, you'll be proudly sporting your new "partner's" window stickers. All above board, see.

usafpjThreads: 10 Posts: 37 Joined: Mar 3, 09	Dec 24, 09, 16:56 / #
I am in Vegas right now. My family lives here and it is one of the worst places on Earth. I know I might get muscled out if it is known that an American owns it. I have trustworthy Polish friends that I have known 5 years and any business would probably be put in their name and run by them. I would do the financing and run the show from behind the scenes. Plus, I don't see how a pub, club, or cafe would be considered a foreign enterprise. I appreciate the advice but I am looking more for facts on the questions I asked.

dtaylor5632Threads: 49 Posts: 4,459 Joined: May 2, 09	Edited by: dtaylor5632 Dec 24, 09, 17:01 / #
Think Twice: Poland for Poles is their motto, so you,ll just become another victim. I doubt it. Just got to look at the number of flourishing foreign owned Bars, clubs ect in Krakow to realise that it's far from Poland is for only Poles.

Think Twice	Dec 25, 09, 11:43 / #
Here we go again........ All the pros Wheres the cons ? your money bro, do what you want. oh, and by the way " foreign owned " (Poles that emigrated to the UK, Germany, States etc.) The whole point here is to be non bias. Look at the bigger picture, not just the little world around you.

delphiandomineThreads: 42 Posts: 9,954 Joined: Nov 25, 08 [Suspended]	Dec 26, 09, 02:54 / #
olga: I agree, I am Polish, what I hear is that foreigners are taken to the cleaners, the mafia ensure that foreigners go down, just look at businesses in Poznan where foreigners have started off, all now gone, I know why. I can introduce you to plenty of foreign businessmen that have made a success of things in Poznan. It might be an issue in small places (I wouldn't try and start a bar in some small town in Eastern Poland!) - but anywhere reasonably sized in Western Poland isn't going to have problems. convex: There are assloads of students here who are quite content with sitting down and nursing a beer for an hour. Beer, as you know, won't make you money. At the rate that half of your beer swilling customers drink it, it won't even cover rent. There's actually a good point to be made here. Polish bars are notorious for three spectacular flaws from a British point of view - 1) They allow people to reserve every table in the pub - often you'll see 2 people sitting at a table for 6/8. It's fine and well if the reservation is from 7pm and they'll pack the place - but the complete inability of Polish bar management to run a sensible reservation policy is frustrating. Any owner needs to be very, very aware of this - and not to be afraid to tell people to drink up and move on if they look like occupying more space than they need. I saw one example during Andrejki (spelling?) - the prominent Warka pub (whatever it's called) just off Stary Rynek in Poznan had reservations on all the tables. Fine - but the 6/8 seat tables were occupied by 2-3 people. How much money did they lose that night? 2) The insistence on playing earsplittingly loud music in pubs without dancefloors. Again - common sense tells you that if people are there to talk, they'll spend much more money if they can be heard easily because they'll talk more, thus drink more, thus spend more. 3) The complete lack of investment in air conditioning. Again, discourages non-smokers somewhat spectacularly. Think Twice: Wheres the cons ? Poland-specific (instead of licenced-trade specific) - 1) Lack of suitable premises. Many places just aren't set up well for bars - which often means the place can end up somewhat substandard. The toilets in the PRL Pub in Poznan are a great example of this. 2) In major cities, the fact that students are your customer base if you can't afford to go for something more upmarket. The older (40+) market just doesn't go to pubs, unlike in the West. 3) Related to 2, you have the issue that for 3-4 months a year, your business will be dead. Tourists will not venture off-Rynek. 4) Suitable bar staff. Many are very, very badly trained - probably due to the fact that wages are very low. I also notice significant losses behind bars - you would need to have a very, very robust spillage policy in place. But all this nonsense about the mafia coming along and ruining your business because it's owned by an American is just that - nonsense.

convexThreads: 46 Posts: 7,185 Joined: Nov 25, 09	Edited by: convex Dec 26, 09, 03:13 / #
delphiandomine: 2) In major cities, the fact that students are your customer base if you can't afford to go for something more upmarket. The older (40+) market just doesn't go to pubs, unlike in the West. It's not really an East/West thing. Czechs, Slovaks, Romanians, Russians...all have local bars... it would be odd for you to not have one within a block or two. That bar would be full of a mix of people. I'm still trying to figure out the drinking culture here, and why it's so different from its neighbors...

inkrakow	Dec 26, 09, 10:11 / #
usafpj: if you run a bar or club in Poland or know someone that does then please fill me in on the pros and cons of such a business. Off the top of my head, my friends' experience is: Pros: If you get the maths right you can make good money. You get to meet a lot of people. You can get a lot of stuff for free from your suppliers (tables, chairs, coffee machines etc) thereby offsetting some of the fit out costs - this is also a con as you're tied to a particular range of brands which accounts for the woeful quality and choice in Krakow's pubs/restaurants. Cons: licensing and hygiene laws (and in fact, all the bureaucracy of running a business) are complex and time consuming. Staff turnover is high. In places like Krakow, there's a huge amount of competition, making marketing yourself difficult.

delphiandomineThreads: 42 Posts: 9,954 Joined: Nov 25, 08 [Suspended]	Dec 24, 09, 17:27 / #
Think Twice: Very few successful foreign enterprises in Poland. Hi Mark, back trolling again are we? Poland is full of foreign enterprises - in fact, one of the problems Poland has is that they have few successful Polish-owned private businesses. A lot of the property in the centre of cities in prominent locations is foreign owned - and even in off-Rynek locations, many pubs and buildings are owned by foreign investors. Think Twice: People on here should say it as it is and stop bull-shitting. Jealousy? Think Twice: People like yourself log on here for helpful advise but the Poles lie to defend their shame in what its really like. What utter nonsense. Poles are among the worst for actually overstating how bad it is - most Poles will certainly not pretend things are amazing here. Think Twice: Poland for Poles is their motto, so you,ll just become another victim. It's the motto of uneducated, PiS voting morons. However, the majority of people aren't members of the Catholic Right and don't have any issues with foreign investment. Most Poles realise that without foreign investment, the country would be on the same level as Belarus! usafpj: I know I might get muscled out if it is known that an American owns it. There's a lot of pubs in Poznan owned by foreigners - I don't think anyone could really care less these days who owns what. If there's problems, it certainly won't be related to the fact that you're American. usafpj: have trustworthy Polish friends that I have known 5 years and any business would probably be put in their name and run by them. It's not required - don't listen to these jealous fools with no experience of investment in Poland. The smartest way to do things as an American is to start up a limited liability company (which again, can be done cheaply, no need to hire expensive lawyers!) - although it's not required - everything can easily be done as a self emplyed person here. usafpj: Plus, I don't see how a pub, club, or cafe would be considered a foreign enterprise. Given that many pubs and clubs are ultimately foreign owned, it really isn't an issue. It might be in small, inbred villages - but in Krakow or Wroclaw? No-one's going to blink an eyelid! The real problems you'll have here will be with the differences in bureaucracy - though as an American, you'll probably be used to the nonsense surrounding alcohol sales anyway!

Wroclaw BoyThreads: 57 Posts: 5,467 Joined: Jul 3, 09 MEMBER	Dec 24, 09, 20:22 / #
delphiandomine: Given that many pubs and clubs are ultimately foreign owned, it really isn't an issue. Granted it isnt an issue the product is what counts but 90% of the clubs, Pubs and Restaurants in Wroclaw are owned by Poles not foreigners at all. Is Poznan vastly different? What they say is massively true in that foreigners will be taken to the cleaners, hook line and sinker. Any body they employ be them lawyers, legal reps, bar staff or ever will be looking to make a quick buck by any means possible and some that are not possible. Im not advising against it im saying be very, very carefull. You contradict yourself on here quite a bit in order to suit your own agenda.

delphiandomineThreads: 42 Posts: 9,954 Joined: Nov 25, 08 [Suspended]	Dec 24, 09, 21:06 / #
Wroclaw Boy: Granted it isnt an issue the product is what counts but 90% of the clubs, Pubs and Restaurants in Wroclaw are owned by Poles not foreigners at all. Is Poznan vastly different? Can't really talk for restaurants (I only have about three that I go to and have never needed to look into their ownership) - but with pubs, most of them are foreign owned here. Even the flagship bar, Dom Vikingow is foreign owned, and most of the small student bars are owned by foreigners. They're usually not run by foreigners though - from what I gather, the practice of buying the bar and then leaving it for a Pole to manage is quite normal. Cafes are almost universally Polish owned though. Wroclaw Boy: What they say is massively true in that foreigners will be taken to the cleaners, hook line and sinker. Any body they employ be them lawyers, legal reps, bar staff or ever will be looking to make a quick buck by any means possible and some that are not possible. Aha - yes, I won't argue at all with that. English speaking Poles seem to have a dreadful reputation for inflating their prices - I know one example where someone was charging 3x the amount that a sworn translator would charge for a page of A4! My accountant for instance charges 100PLN+VAT a month. Yet if you find an English speaking one, it's almost guaranteed that they'll attempt to charge a hell of a lot more for the same service. I did a bit of research when finding mine, and the overwhelming evidence was that if they knew an English-speaking client was involved, the price would suddenly shoot up. One thing is certain - I advise people to make sure they know exactly what's happening at all times with their business. The whole "oh, I'm dealing with it, you don't need to know" attitude is just asking for trouble. But this practice is everywhere really.

Wroclaw BoyThreads: 57 Posts: 5,467 Joined: Jul 3, 09 MEMBER	Dec 24, 09, 22:22 / #
delphiandomine: Can't really talk for restaurants (I only have about three that I go to and have never needed to look into their ownership) Why did you need to look into the ownership of the bars? Whos the owners, what nationality?

delphiandomineThreads: 42 Posts: 9,954 Joined: Nov 25, 08 [Suspended]	Dec 24, 09, 23:00 / #
Wroclaw Boy: Why did you need to look into the ownership of the bars? Good to know, really. Bars are always popular with British expats (Spain, anyone?) after all - and it's worth knowing about the ownership - after all, you never know who might want to buy a bar :) Wroclaw Boy: Whos the owners, what nationality? Off the top of my head - Deja Vu and Van Gogh in Poznan are owned by Irish guys. Dom Vikingow is owned by Danes. Coxy's is owned by a foreigner, I think British, but don't hold me to that. I've got a list somewhere, let me see if I can find it...

usafpjThreads: 10 Posts: 37 Joined: Mar 3, 09	Dec 26, 09, 01:18 / #
How easily this board gets distracted. I was asking for facts from people that know. Not generalities about the Polish people or the Country itself. It seems that foreign businesses do just fine. There are lots of American and EU companies in this Country. Twinings Tea just moved here. So I will ask again, if you run a bar or club in Poland or know someone that does then please fill me in on the pros and cons of such a business. If you do not know anything then please just skip over these posts.

olga	Dec 26, 09, 01:36 / #
Wroclaw Boy: What they say is massively true in that foreigners will be taken to the cleaners, hook line and sinker. Any body they employ be them lawyers, legal reps, bar staff or ever will be looking to make a quick buck by any means possible and some that are not possible. I agree, I am Polish, what I hear is that foreigners are taken to the cleaners, the mafia ensure that foreigners go down, just look at businesses in Poznan where foreigners have started off, all now gone, I know why.

convexThreads: 46 Posts: 7,185 Joined: Nov 25, 09	Dec 26, 09, 02:35 / #
olga: I agree, I am Polish, what I hear is that foreigners are taken to the cleaners, the mafia ensure that foreigners go down, just look at businesses in Poznan where foreigners have started off, all now gone, I know why. I have two companies here that are doing just fine. If you come over with a fist full of dollars, don't do your research, and don't know your industry, you will get screwed. A little due diligence goes a long way. That said, I was looking into this last year, but the rental prices have gone down, still a bit too high for me as I like easy money. Do a search on domiporta, there are some decent places in Wroclaw for rent, some even turn key with an extremely low buyout. If you have never run a place, you're going to get screwed. If you don't speak Polish, expect to pay a premium until you do. Sit it out, and wait for the right place to open up while you learn Polish and build up your contacts. The distributors here are fairly tight as they have plenty of choices as to where they can put money. There are assloads of students here who are quite content with sitting down and nursing a beer for an hour. Beer, as you know, won't make you money. At the rate that half of your beer swilling customers drink it, it won't even cover rent. There are plenty of people here in Wroclaw that got into some money, decided that they wanted a bar of their own, and folded within 12 months. Lots of places come and go. Patience is always a winner. If your plan works, it will also work a year from now, and you will be much more prepared to go in and make it successful from the start.

Grzegorz_Threads: 81 Posts: 6,213 Joined: Nov 16, 06	Dec 26, 09, 11:01 / #
delphiandomine: It's the motto of uneducated, PiS voting morons. However, the majority of people aren't members of the Catholic Right and don't have any issues with foreign investment. delphiandomine: It might be an issue in small places (I wouldn't try and start a bar in some small town in Eastern Poland!) - but anywhere reasonably sized in Western Poland isn't going to have problems. You still know nothing about this country.

Adams14Threads: - Posts: 4 Joined: Dec 26, 09	Dec 26, 09, 18:19 / #
Can anyone point me in the right direction, Im looking to buy some commercial property in Poland, do they have a online website for this?? thanks

no name	Dec 26, 09, 18:45 / #
Had a bar in Krakow, paid off duty police to protect premises from protection racket but was too costly in the end. Purchased a bar in Gdansk, it went so well that I was told I must sell half the shares to "Mr. Big" at the most ridiculous price. Got threatened with my life when I refused, so I sold up and fled. And I only got away with the sale because I sold to a law enforcement official. Have a friend going through the same experience at the present.

usafpjThreads: 10 Posts: 37 Joined: Mar 3, 09	Edited by: usafpj Dec 26, 09, 20:27 / #
I have noticed that customer service in Poland is sub-par, putting it mildly. My business plan includes hiring my friends, who are very beautiful University students, and paying them well to flirt with customers like waitresses and bartenders do here in the States. And not playing blaring music is also in my plan. I do not know how you could make people drink more instead of nursing their beers. Maybe have some games or giveaways some nights. Or how about owning an apteka or two? My friend thought that might be a good plan.

delphiandomineThreads: 42 Posts: 9,954 Joined: Nov 25, 08 [Suspended]	Dec 28, 09, 05:03 / #
usafpj: I do not know how you could make people drink more instead of nursing their beers. The trick here is to discourage the type - don't make reservations for anyone that isn't a loyal (big spending) customer, or even better, if they want to make a reservation, insist on a minimum deposit (to be spent, non returnable) per chair. That's a good way to avoid beer nursers, and then after that, sometimes it pays to be rude. If someone's sitting there for 3 hours, taking up a large table with two people and nursing a beer, don't be afraid to tell them to drink up and move on - or ask them to move.

f stopThreads: 33 Posts: 2,855 Joined: Dec 9, 09	Edited by: f stop Dec 28, 09, 06:41 / #
to promote faster beer consumption: - very salty nuts - hot (spicy) crackers no name -> that is some scary sh!t but it rings so true

convexThreads: 46 Posts: 7,185 Joined: Nov 25, 09	Dec 28, 09, 11:48 / #
f stop: to promote faster beer consumption: Problem is, beer doesn't make you money. Shots and mixed drinks make you money. The idea would be to push shots, have drink specials, free rounds, etc. Get 'em in, get 'em hammered, send them along their way. Barrels don't pay rent, bottles do. The margin on beer here is teeny tiny. m2 prices are high. Unless someone is trying to start a hobby bar where breaking even is the goal, or has a really really sweet deal on their rent, there is no way of running a successful beer bar.

Henryk	Dec 29, 09, 03:15 / #
delphiandomine: But all this nonsense about the mafia coming along and ruining your business because it's owned by an American is just that - nonsense. it seems to me delphindomine that your experience in Polish businesses does not go beyond that of having a hotdog stand at a local sunday market, please consider these points, 1. Ask any owner of a failed business why the business has failed? (usual response trouble with the local authority ie laws etc) Staff pilfering and dishonesty and pressure to pay people off, ie Police and local thugs. 2. If you are a foreigner you will be a easy target, poles love to rob the rich (Robin Hood metality) 3. No person has become rich selling jugs of beer, poles prefer to buy alcohol at the corner shop as it is cheaper. 4. Go and spend some time in a beer garden and you will just see a few drunks abusing staff. 5. Who wants to go to a beer garden and be exposed to vomit smell and people urinating in the corner.