Question: Illegal Aliens in Poland

During the latter appointment, Sikorski became notorious in the Polish expatriate community, Polonia, for designing and promoting a particularly strict policy regarding Polonia's citizenship status in Poland.[2] [3] As a result of that policy, Poland refused to recognize the acquired citizenships of Polish emigrants, including hundreds of thousands of recent refugees from Communism and their children, and insisted that they be subject to all obligations of Polish citizenship, while at the same time making it impossible to renounce such citizenship because of an extremely cumbersome administrative procedure. This policy became known as the "passport trap" because it was mainly implemented as harassment of departing travellers (primarily citizens of the United States, Canada, and Australia) who were prevented from leaving Poland until they obtain a Polish passport.

defmaxThreads: 1 Posts: 1 Joined: Feb 15, 09	Feb 15, 09, 14:52 / #
Hello, I am writing a paper on Polish immigration law. I have run into a bit of a problem regarding the penalty of overstaying the 90 set limit for foreigners in Poland. Let's say a foreigner has exceeded the minimum 90 day stay and has remained in Poland for several years and decides to leave Poland. This person has had their passport stamped on the date of their arrival into Poland by an immigration officer at the airport. What if this foreigner wants to leave Poland? Would he/she be stopped at the airport when showing their passport? If so what kind of penalty would they face? Let's say this same foreigner learns that it is possible for him/her to become Polish based on the fact that his/her father's father was Polish and emigrated from Poland in 1910 to the US. If this foreigner can collect enough documentation proving that his/her grandfather came from Poland and did not renunciate his Polish citizenship while he was in the US, what are his/her chances of becoming a Polish citizen while being of an illegal status (since he/she has overstayed their 90day stay period and has been in Poland for several years)? I appreciate any information regarding this seemingly rare situation which I can not find any information about on the internet. Thank you. Sincerely, Max

WroclawThreads: 77 Posts: 7,404 Joined: Apr 1, 06 [Moderator]	Feb 15, 09, 15:07 / #
defmax: What if this foreigner wants to leave Poland? Would he/she be stopped at the airport when showing their passport? If so what kind of penalty would they face? To avoid a problem one only has to enter Germany and leave via a German airport. There is no border between Poland and Germany. It's easy really.

Grzegorz_Threads: 81 Posts: 6,213 Joined: Nov 16, 06	Feb 15, 09, 15:20 / #
Wroclaw: To avoid a problem one only has to enter Germany and leave via a German airport. Are you sure ? I think that the 90 day limit is now for the whole Schengen zone.

WroclawThreads: 77 Posts: 7,404 Joined: Apr 1, 06 [Moderator]	Feb 15, 09, 15:23 / #
Grzegorz_: Are you sure ? I think that the 90 day limit is now for the whole Schengen zone. Ah, I think you must be right. defmax, forget what I said.

freebirdThreads: 3 Posts: 638 Joined: Jun 8, 07	Feb 15, 09, 16:27 / #
Wroclaw: To avoid a problem one only has to enter Germany and leave via a German airport. There is no border between Poland and Germany. It's easy really. Absolutely. I did the same thing and it worked.

Grzegorz_Threads: 81 Posts: 6,213 Joined: Nov 16, 06	Feb 15, 09, 17:08 / #
freebird: I did the same thing and it worked. When ?

delphiandomineThreads: 42 Posts: 9,954 Joined: Nov 25, 08 [Suspended]	Feb 15, 09, 20:00 / #
Grzegorz_: Are you sure ? I think that the 90 day limit is now for the whole Schengen zone. Yup, it is. I'm not sure if a systematic record of entries/exits from non-EU citizens is kept - I would suspect that stamps are used to keep track rather than SIS4All, simply because it seems unlikely that the computer system could handle it. defmax: Let's say a foreigner has exceeded the minimum 90 day stay and has remained in Poland for several years and decides to leave Poland. This person has had their passport stamped on the date of their arrival into Poland by an immigration officer at the airport. What if this foreigner wants to leave Poland? Would he/she be stopped at the airport when showing their passport? If so what kind of penalty would they face? A ban from the Schengen zone would almost certainly occur. Apart from that, I think it would be unlikely that they would be prosecuted - banning them from Schengen would be more than enough punishment and be the easiest way to deal with it. Allegedly, a red stamp is placed in the passport of those that overstay in the Schengen area - but I've never seen any proof of this.

defmaxThreads: 1 Posts: 1 Joined: Feb 15, 09	Feb 15, 09, 20:57 / #
I see, would you, or anyone else, know of a site I could go to find out detailed information about this? I am trying to get information I can document in my paper. Or do you know of any people I can contact via Skype? Thanks again for all the info so far! Max

KowalskiThreads: 12 Posts: 619 Joined: Sep 13, 06	Edited by: Kowalski Feb 15, 09, 22:50 / #
www.google.com/search?hl=en&q=schengen++SIS+aliens&btnG=Search

HarryThreads: 62 Posts: 8,508 Joined: May 2, 07 [Suspended]	Feb 16, 09, 12:11 / #
defmax: Let's say this same foreigner learns that it is possible for him/her to become Polish based on the fact that his/her father's father was Polish and emigrated from Poland in 1910 to the US. If this foreigner can collect enough documentation proving that his/her grandfather came from Poland and did not renunciate his Polish citizenship while he was in the US, what are his/her chances of becoming a Polish citizen while being of an illegal status (since he/she has overstayed their 90day stay period and has been in Poland for several years)? As far as I understand the legal situation, that person would never have been an illegal immigrant in Poland because he/she would have been a Polish citizen from the moment of his/her birth. It is not possible to apply for Polish citizenship based on descent; it is only possible to apply for confirmation of Polish citizenship based on descent.

ElsshaThreads: 1 Posts: 152 Joined: Jan 26, 09	Edited by: Elssha Feb 17, 09, 00:58 / #
Harry: No. I remember a case a couple of years back where a member of the US navy was in Sopot and got picked up by the police for being drunk and annoying. They saw his Polish name, saw his place of birth as being Poland and immediately classified him as Polish. Initially the police refused to let anybody from the US embassy in Warsaw have any contact with him! how did it get resolve though? Where was he born? From what you said it sounds like the police assumed he was polish thus classified him as such... did they have to back off/apologize or were they proven in the right (ultimately)? Did it turn into mistaken identity (mistaken assumption that he had citizenship) or did it fully play out with his (till then non-existent) polish citizenship intact? My mom (born and raised in PL) flew to PL with me in 1999 on her US passport (her polish one had expired, I think) and the guy there stamped in her visa and gave her the 'you can stay for a couple months or need to get a different visa' speech even after being told she had PL citizenship and was simply traveling on her US passport.

gjeneThreads: 9 Posts: 98 Joined: May 4, 08	Feb 17, 09, 01:22 / #
Can't help you on the overstaying part. But as for the other part check into www.easyexpat.com website. Click on the forum, then look into the 'Immigration to Poland'. There you may or will find the answers to the other questions that you have in regards to older relatives. Also check into the citizenship act of 1920 and 1951. Any emigration prior to 1951 you will need to refer to the 1920 act. Then from 1951 to 1962, it will be the 1951 act, after 1962 will be the 1962 act. So far I have not heard of any further amendments or updates to this act.

HarryThreads: 62 Posts: 8,508 Joined: May 2, 07 [Suspended]	Feb 17, 09, 09:31 / #
Elssha: how did it get resolve though? Where was he born? From what you said it sounds like the police assumed he was polish thus classified him as such... did they have to back off/apologize or were they proven in the right (ultimately)? Did it turn into mistaken identity (mistaken assumption that he had citizenship) or did it fully play out with his (till then non-existent) polish citizenship intact? Legally speaking, they were right. Just because he had never had a Polish passport (he'd left Poland on his mother's passport) didn't mean that he wasn't a Polish citizen: he was born in Poland and thus was Polish (according to Polish law anyway). Even worse, he was a Polish citizen who had joined the armed forces of a foreign nation, which is a crime. Eventually the police obviously had to back down. There was no way that the US Navy were going to leave one of their own in a foreign jail cell. As I understand it, somebody fairly high up at the US embassy called somebody fairly high up in the Polish government and explained that this was not a matter for discussion, then that somebody kicked the shit down a level and so on until it got to Sopot police station, where the police carefully helped the sailor out (apparently he'd fallen down the stairs on the way in....)

ElsshaThreads: 1 Posts: 152 Joined: Jan 26, 09	Feb 16, 09, 13:17 / #
Harry: As far as I understand the legal situation, that person would never have been an illegal immigrant in Poland because he/she would have been a Polish citizen from the moment of his/her birth. It is not possible to apply for Polish citizenship based on descent; it is only possible to apply for confirmation of Polish citizenship based on descent. I think you still have to apply for it to make it legal though... and IDK if it would work in the 'crap, I'm caught, now can I have my citizenship?' order. Plus, I would assume you'd have to apply for it in the embassy before going to PL, and have proof that you are indeed of polish decent (AKA, PL has to know you exist to grant you citizenship).

HarryThreads: 62 Posts: 8,508 Joined: May 2, 07 [Suspended]	Feb 16, 09, 14:06 / #
Elssha: I think you still have to apply for it to make it legal though... and IDK if it would work in the 'crap, I'm caught, now can I have my citizenship?' order. Plus, I would assume you'd have to apply for it in the embassy before going to PL, and have proof that you are indeed of polish decent (AKA, PL has to know you exist to grant you citizenship). No. I remember a case a couple of years back where a member of the US navy was in Sopot and got picked up by the police for being drunk and annoying. They saw his Polish name, saw his place of birth as being Poland and immediately classified him as Polish. Initially the police refused to let anybody from the US embassy in Warsaw have any contact with him!

ElsshaThreads: 1 Posts: 152 Joined: Jan 26, 09	Feb 18, 09, 08:38 / #
defmax asked defmax: Let's say this same foreigner learns that it is possible for him/her to become Polish based on the fact that his/her father's father was Polish and emigrated from Poland in 1910 to the US. in your example Harry: he was born in Poland and thus was Polish everyone born in PL gets a pesel and citizenship... ppl born outside pl to pl parents are entitled to it; big difference.

HarryThreads: 62 Posts: 8,508 Joined: May 2, 07 [Suspended]	Feb 19, 09, 15:31 / #
Elssha: ppl born outside pl to pl parents are entitled to it; big difference. During the latter appointment, Sikorski became notorious in the Polish expatriate community, Polonia, for designing and promoting a particularly strict policy regarding Polonia's citizenship status in Poland.[2] [3] As a result of that policy, Poland refused to recognize the acquired citizenships of Polish emigrants, including hundreds of thousands of recent refugees from Communism and their children, and insisted that they be subject to all obligations of Polish citizenship, while at the same time making it impossible to renounce such citizenship because of an extremely cumbersome administrative procedure. This policy became known as the "passport trap" because it was mainly implemented as harassment of departing travellers (primarily citizens of the United States, Canada, and Australia) who were prevented from leaving Poland until they obtain a Polish passport. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rados%C5%82aw_Sikorski