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Moze wpadlbym na herbate to pogadamy?


emmaThreads: 1
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Edited by: Moderator   Aug 22, 09, 13:18 /  #
could someone please translate this sentence for me

Moze wpadlbym na herbate to pogadamy?

sausageThreads: 25
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  Aug 22, 09, 13:20 /  #
perhaps i would drop in for tea & a chat
emmaThreads: 1
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  Aug 22, 09, 13:22 /  #
Thankyou :) i knew herbate was "tea" but was unsure of the rest hehe
MichalThreads: -
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Edited by: Michal   Aug 22, 09, 21:23 /  #
Herbata is tea not herbate.
SzwedwPolsceThreads: 12
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  Aug 22, 09, 21:45 /  #
Michal:
Herbata is tea not herbate.

Herbatę is 'tea' in the accusative case.
LeftyThreads: 19
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  Aug 22, 09, 21:47 /  #
SzwedwPolsce:
Herbatę is 'tea' in the accusative case.

Szwed, Can you tell me why it is accusitive?
MichalThreads: -
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  Aug 23, 09, 13:17 /  #
SzwedwPolsce:
Herbatę is 'tea' in the accusative case

This is not the dictionary form for the word 'tea'. End of story.
catsoldierThreads: 75
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  Sep 27, 09, 18:37 /  #
emma:
Może wpadlbym na herbatę to pogadamy?

SzwedwPolsce:
Herbatę is 'tea' in the accusative case.

How can you tell when to use accusative and dative?

For example:
Widzę kawę. I see the coffee. Accusative, the coffee is the direct object of the action.
Przyglądamy się kawie. We observe the coffee. This is dative as far as I know but it looks to me like the coffee is still the direct object of the verb even though dative means it is the indierct object.

How is the coffee in this case an indirect object?

Thanks
SeanusThreads: 22
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  Sep 27, 09, 18:50 /  #
It is used more like could rather than would :) It's like a tentative suggestion but a leading one nonetheless.
ZiemowitThreads: 10
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Edited by: Ziemowit   Sep 28, 09, 13:05 /  #
catsoldier:
How is the coffee in this case an indirect object?

The verb "przyglądać się" is an intransitive verb only. So it can be used as a standing alone one or may be accompanied by an indirect object which in Polish needs to be put in the dative case.

- Co ty tutaj robisz!?
- Nic szczególnego. Przygladam się.
- A tak konkretnie to czemu się przyglądasz?
- Przyglądam się [dative: komu? czemu?] kawie (filiżance kawy) stojącej na stole.
SzwedwPolsceThreads: 12
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Edited by: SzwedwPolsce   Sep 28, 09, 14:07 /  #
Lefty:
Szwed, Can you tell me why it is accusitive?

The preposition na governs the accusative or the locative case. Depending on the situation. In this case it governs the accusative case. So the word after na should be accusative case.

After 'na' (generally speaking):
1. If there is a movement to a place it's accusative.
2. If it's about being in a place it's locative.
3. If it's not about being in a place, and not a movement to a place, then it's usually accusative.

1. Idę na rynek. (acc)
2. Jestem na rynku. (loc)
3. Mam ochotę na herbatę. (acc)

LeopejoThreads: 6
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Edited by: Leopejo   Sep 28, 09, 14:21 /  #
catsoldier:
How can you tell when to use accusative and dative?

For example:
Widzę kawę. I see the coffee. Accusative, the coffee is the direct object of the action.
Przyglądamy się kawie. We observe the coffee. This is dative as far as I know but it looks to me like the coffee is still the direct object of the verb even though dative means it is the indierct object.

How is the coffee in this case an indirect object?

Don't base the choice of direct or indirect on some "logic", but on the specific verb (or preposition). A genitive after szukać or słuchać is completely out of logic for me, but only because the same verbs in my languages require different cases (prepositions), and I acknowledge that my native languages sound strange too in this respect.

English has gone even further with its phrasal verbs.

***

EDIT: Huh it seems I can't post again in this thread until someone else posts. So here is my reply to Michal:

Michal:
This is not the dictionary form for the word 'tea'. End of story.

And nobody asked for the dictionary form.

For me a word is the full set of its declined forms, and nominative is the "most important" form almost only by convention. Just to make an example, one of my native languages lost all cases and was left with only one form in the singular - and this came from the accusative, not nominative (in the plural the contrary).

Would you say that proszę is not a Polish word?

This said, I always find it odd when listening to some Pimsleur course and they say "what is the word for tea? Herbatę" (not this exact example, but there are plenty of them).
catsoldierThreads: 75
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  Oct 3, 09, 12:19 /  #
Thanks everyone for all your help, I have read it carefully and it is very helpful, thanks again


one of my native languages lost all cases and was left with only one form in the singular

What language lost all its cases except one? Thanks.
LeopejoThreads: 6
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  Oct 3, 09, 12:35 /  #
catsoldier:
What language lost all its cases except one? Thanks.

I was referring to Italian, but this applies to all Romance languages but Romanian (French, Spanish, Portuguese,...) as well as English and other European languages.
catsoldierThreads: 75
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  Oct 3, 09, 12:59 /  #
polishgrammar.com/learn-polish/grammar/noun-case-identification-e1.htm l

I have been doing the exercise on this page. I still have some problems.

100.Mam parę kubków. Genitive. I thought that this would be accusative like, Mam kawę.
Is it that Mam kawę is I have coffee, not necessarily my coffee? Mam parę kubków means that I own a few cups, they are mine?




99.Pokój ma drzwi. Now I thought that this one would be genitive because the doors belong to the room but it is accusative.

96.Nie znam Warszawy. I thought that this would be accusative because I thought that Warszawa woudl be the direct object.

95.Kupuję jabłka.Accusative.
94.Nie kupuję jabłek. Genitive
Why did we use the Genitive here instead of the accusative?

Thanks in advance.
gumishuThreads: 13
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  Oct 3, 09, 13:04 /  #
SzwedwPolsce:
Depending on the situation.

the difference reflects the contrast between situations involving motion (even if in abstract sens) and static - this is the same in German - Ich gehe ins Kino. (accusative) I bin in den Kino (dative). Ich liege auf einem Tisch. (no motion) Ich lege meine Brille auf einen Tisch. (motion involved) (or reverse - I am not sure now ;)

anyway - na stole (locative) no motion
na stół (accusative) motion involved

byłam u niej na kawie - I was at her place for a coffee. - no (kawa related) motion
idę do niej na kawę - I am going to her place for a coffee - motion involved
LeopejoThreads: 6
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  Oct 3, 09, 13:10 /  #
catsoldier
It's "simple". Positive sentences with mieć and other transitive verbs take the accusative. And kawę, parę are accusative. You use the same in English: "I have a pair". Of what? Of cups. Therefore kubków.

Again, "the room has a door". Grammatically it's exactly the same as above, rooms have doors, you have coffee.

Instead, Polish differs in negative sentences. When you have a negative sentence, you use the genitive instead. Different logic. "I have a cup", but "I don't have of cup". That explains your examples 96 and 94. The same happens in Russian.
gumishuThreads: 13
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  Oct 3, 09, 13:16 /  #
catsoldier:
100.Mam parę kubków. Genitive. I thought that this would be accusative like, Mam kawę.

the thing is parę meaning - a few, a couple of - originally was a noun in this construction (it is still a separate normal noun meaning 'a pair(a couple)')

and you still use constructions like para kubków in Polish - which means a pair of mugs - in most cases English of corresponds with genetive constructions in Polish
(the construction is no exception - trójka asów (three aces), czwórka koni (four horses (sort of a quartet of horses - cause czwórka is a nurmeral-derived noun)
catsoldierThreads: 75
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  Oct 3, 09, 13:39 /  #
Thanks Gumishu and Leopejo, what you said makes sense and is very useful. :-)
catsoldierThreads: 75
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  Oct 3, 09, 14:00 /  #
85.obok ___. I thought that obok would be locative because it gives a location but it is Genitive.

83.przed ___
in front of ___ I thought this would be locative also because it expresses a location but it is instrumental.

82.za ___
behind ___ This ones turns out to be intrumental also and not locative.

Why aren't any of these locative?
81.po ___
after ___ is locative!!!
SzwedwPolsceThreads: 12
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Edited by: SzwedwPolsce   Oct 3, 09, 18:55 /  #
gumishu:
the difference reflects the contrast between situations involving motion (even if in abstract sens) and static -

That's what I wrote.

SzwedwPolsce:
After 'na' (generally speaking):
1. If there is a movement to a place it's accusative.
2. If it's about being in a place it's locative.

3. If it's not about being in a place, and not a movement to a place, then it's usually accusative.

1. Idę na rynek. (acc)
2. Jestem na rynku. (loc)
3. Mam ochotę na herbatę. (acc)


catsoldierThreads: 75
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  Oct 3, 09, 19:26 /  #
85.obok ___. I thought that obok would be locative because it gives a location but it is Genitive.

Answer:



LeopejoThreads: 6
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Edited by: Leopejo   Oct 3, 09, 19:32 /  #
catsoldier:
85.obok ___. I thought that obok would be locative because it gives a location but it is Genitive.

83.przed ___
in front of ___ I thought this would be locative also because it expresses a location but it is instrumental.

82.za ___
behind ___ This ones turns out to be intrumental also and not locative.

Why aren't any of these locative?
81.po ___
after ___ is locative!!!

This is just how the language works. Don't give too much weight to the name of the case. Some prepositions take one case only, others take two or more cases, each with a specific meaning. Polish language, it seems to me, is pretty fond of genitive, more than Russian. The locative is often connected with the meaning of "at". You don't use "at" in English either in these situations: "behind...", "in front of...", "near (to)...".

In any good textbook you'll find a table with prepositions and cases, and a meaning of each combination. For now just forget the names or the cases (and it's not that Latin, from where most of these names come, is much more logical in its use of cases).

EDIT: it seems you found by yourself :-)
catsoldierThreads: 75
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Edited by: catsoldier   Oct 3, 09, 19:58 /  #
Leopejo:
In any good textbook you'll find a table with prepositions and cases, and a meaning of each combination.

Leopejo:
Some prepositions take one case only, others take two or more cases, each with a specific meaning.

Polish grammar seems to be unbelievably hard, I would imagine it stops some people continuing to learn Polish. The polish language would be an ideal way for writing secret/classified messages except that Polish people can speak it and a few others who I admire greatly. If there were no Polish speakers it could be sold to the CIA/Al Qaida, whoever pays more! :-)

Thanks Leopejo. If I come accross more tables I will try to remember to post them. Thanks again.
LeftyThreads: 19
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  Oct 3, 09, 20:06 /  #
SzwedwPolsce:
SzwedwPolsce

SzwedwPolsce:
1. If there is a movement to a place it's accusative.
2. If it's about being in a place it's locative.
3. If it's not about being in a place, and not a movement to a place, then it's usually accusative.

These are simple understandable sentances which I actually understand! Do you think you could create a thread or post in this one with the rest of the cases in plain simple English?

I'd really appreciate it!
catsoldierThreads: 75
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  Oct 3, 09, 20:22 /  #
catsoldier:
83.przed ___
in front of ___ I thought this would be locative also because it expresses a location but it is instrumental.

82.za ___
behind ___ This ones turns out to be intrumental also and not locative.

Why aren't any of these locative?
81.po ___
after ___ is locative!!!

I found a of table here, the table matches my 3 questions. I hope the rest is correct.
http://en.wikibooks.org/wiki/Polish/Prepositions_as_hints_to_declensio ns
ZiemowitThreads: 10
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  Oct 4, 09, 15:47 /  #
catsoldier:

It is convenient not to think of all prepositions of location as describing locations. It is convenient to think of many of them as describing ways of "relations" between objects.

The prepositions: przed (in front of), za (behind), nad (over) and pod (under) behave as if they described "relations" between objects (thus necesitating the istrumental) rather than mere locations of the object (necesitating the locative):
Książka leży na stole (location/locative). Lampa wisi nad stołem (relation/instrumental).

The nature of the prepositions: obok, koło, wokół, dookoła, niedaleko, blisko is perhaps quite close to the idea of possesing, so they take the genetive rather than opting for the locative:
Szedł obok mnie. Magazyn znajdował się blisko domu.
SzwedwPolsceThreads: 12
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  Oct 4, 09, 17:19 /  #
Lefty:
These are simple understandable sentances which I actually understand! Do you think you could create a thread or post in this one with the rest of the cases in plain simple English?

I'd really appreciate it!

This is only about the word that comes after the preposition na. These rules don't apply to other situations.

Maybe I can write something about the case system, but it is a huge task. I will see what I can do. You can expect something at least. :)
LeftyThreads: 19
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  Oct 4, 09, 18:00 /  #
SzwedwPolsce:
Maybe I can write something about the case system, but it is a huge task. I will see what I can do. You can expect something at least. :)

Thank you! I'm sure several others would also be really pleased!

:)
mavThreads: -
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  Oct 5, 09, 18:27 /  #
Leopejo
Don't give too much weight to the name of the case.

This well said, actually Locative is also called Prepositional


The LOCATIVE CASE is often used to answer the question "about/in/after what?" (o/w/po czym) or "about/in/after whom" (o/w/po kim) in sentences such as
"Rozmawialiśmy o filmie." (We spoke about the movie.),
"Marta zapomniała o randce." (Marta forgot about her date.)
"Mój szef zadzwoni do ciebie po świętach" (My boss will call you after the holidays.)
"Starsza pani zawsze kupuje owoce na bazarze." (The old woman always buys her fruit at the market.)

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