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Du ju spik polisz?



JeshcoThreads: 1
Posts: 11
Joined: Mar 7, 09 		Edited by: Jeshco   Mar 11, 09, 03:48 /  #
Recently I read in an online "Polityka" edition a blog by a professor of Polish language lamenting the apparent death of the language as he knew it.
What surprised me the most was a paragraph in which, the professor said that it is absolutely appaling that the "menadżerzy używaja angielskich słów zamiast polszczyzny"
I did a double take, then a triple and I still cannot believe that the guy is having a whine, while using the word "menadżerzy". One of us has obviously lost the plot...
To celebrate the fall of Polish I designed two T-shirts.

Have a look here:
[url=http://www.redbubble.com/people/braincandy/t-shirts/2705485-2--el -du-ju][/url]
and
[url=http://www.redbubble.com/people/braincandy/t-shirts/2717762-1-aj- spik-inglisz-gud-like][/url]

Hope you get a giggle.
cheers, czuwaj!

PS.
Somehow the URL code is broken, just copy/paste.
MrBubblesThreads: 13
Posts: 768
Joined: Nov 13, 07 		  Mar 11, 09, 07:44 /  #
Jeshco:
menadżerzy

Well, language is always changing, but I wonder what Polish would use if the word menadżer were not in common use. Would kierownik be ok or does it mean something different?
JeshcoThreads: 1
Posts: 11
Joined: Mar 7, 09 		  Mar 11, 09, 09:10 /  #
Of course the language changes, no doubt. But why complain if one is guilty of exactly the same behaviour?
Kierownik would do just fine in my opinion. But I guess menedżer sounds "better" more "American" and you know how greedy people are to make themselves more important than they really are. And that applies to the whole world. Recently I've seen that our local (Melbourne, Oz) train service was looking for "train presentation officers" or, in other words cleaners - George Orwell is rolling in his grave!
MrBubblesThreads: 13
Posts: 768
Joined: Nov 13, 07 		  Mar 11, 09, 11:02 /  #
Jeshco:
Of course the language changes, no doubt. But why complain if one is guilty of exactly the same behaviour?

Oh I totally agree, don't get me wrong. People like the professor really seem to have strange ideas of language but then again, it is one of the key expressions of Polish culture. Take England for example; We don't have our own language any more - over 50% of English speakers are not natives and English words have been incorporatd in probably every other world language.

What has Polish given English in return? Pierogi, Vodka, Chernozol and a handful of yiddish. Perhaps Poles should choose to 'buy Polish' when it comes to choosing their words? Or are there concepts that there is simply no Polish expression for?

Good thread btw!
gumishu   Mar 11, 09, 19:48 /  #
Jeshco neither kierownicy nor kadra kierownicza are good substitutes of manadżerowie in the meaning used by the professor. Kadra kierownicza is heavily context dependant - without a context it is too much an abstract thing. On the other hand kierownicy covers rather lower level of managers. Manadżerowie/menedżerowie/menedżerzy means people running businesses especially in corporations (definitely higher level of managers).
osiolThreads: 59
Posts: 4,714
Joined: Jul 25, 07 		  Mar 11, 09, 20:31 /  #
Possibly the first way that the Polish language began to differenciate itself from neighbouring Russian, was the adoption of Latin words when Russian looked to Old Church Slavonic. Then there were German borrowings, then French, now English. Languages are all bound to change over time. If it's your language, use it how you want to use it, and use it with confidence. Problem solved?
Bratwurst BoyThreads: 11
Posts: 14,563
Joined: Apr 2, 07 		Edited by: Bratwurst Boy   Mar 11, 09, 20:51 /  #
osiol:
Languages are all bound to change over time.

I fully agree!
Germans would be hard pressed trying to understand their ancestors of 200 years back...also english is changing too (lingua franca or not).
One can already differentiate only by hearing between american english and english english! :)
And for the future, being used in so many different countries by so many non-native speakers "world-english" is bound to become an internationalized esperanto in few decades with many, many foreign words and dialects. All these people will leave over time their mark on poor, old "Oxford-english"...:)
mafketisThreads: 17
Posts: 1,880
Joined: Mar 31, 08 		Edited by: mafketis   Mar 11, 09, 23:20 /  #
MrBubbles:
Or are there concepts that there is simply no Polish expression for?

My impression is that the most common borrowings from English are for things that there are already Polish words for (but which have negative connotations which the English words don't).

Not to mention that (as is normal in all languages) once a word is established as a borrowing the meaning/usage changes from the original. (for example 'full' used as a noun in Polish or niusy (news as a plural when the original is non-count). This just makes it harder for learners to be able to use the words correctly in English in my experience.

I think the stupidest borrowings are those made by shallow people to try to impress their countrymen (listen to me! I'm so used to speaking English and so fluent that English words have permeated my speech! I bet you don't even understand half of them you silly burak!).

Also a weird thing I've noticed. Many Europeans think lots of English in other languages sounds silly or stupid but think it sounds sophisticated in their own language (which then sounds silly and stupid to others).
osiolThreads: 59
Posts: 4,714
Joined: Jul 25, 07 		  Mar 12, 09, 00:28 /  #
mafketis:
niusy (news as a plural when the original is non-count)

Really because it has become an uncountable noun in its own right. I believe there was a time when they were the news. Imagine there only being one new.

The best ones I hear are from a certain workmate of mine who knows very little English, but says things like "Moja wife"... or did he say "My żona"?
JeshcoThreads: 1
Posts: 11
Joined: Mar 7, 09 		Edited by: Jeshco   Mar 12, 09, 10:13 /  #
gumishu,
For years (even back in the pre-WWII Polish) there was a dyrektor and then kirownik below. And all was good. Now wankers need to make themselves more important than they really are.
It is not true that menagers are higher on a corporate ladder than a "kierownik" one is a Polis word, the other an English one.
I am not having a go at the professor or anyone else, I am just stating the facts.
MarekThreads: 4
Posts: 1,120
Joined: Feb 15, 07 		  Mar 12, 09, 15:15 /  #
Have to read the link, but already I can say that the issue of language erosion is one dear to my heart. Will have to post back once I've finished it.

Thanks in advance!
krysiaThreads: 26
Posts: 3,604
Joined: Aug 10, 06 		  Mar 12, 09, 15:31 /  #
You should here the Chicago Polish. Poles don't want to learn english, so they form their own language, example:
Na kornerze stoi moja kara. (My car is parked on the corner)
Brudne karpety. (Dirty carpets)
SeanusThreads: 22
Posts: 30,158
Joined: Dec 25, 07 		  Mar 12, 09, 15:37 /  #
Hmm...that just sounds silly but communication is communication.
osiolThreads: 59
Posts: 4,714
Joined: Jul 25, 07 		  Mar 12, 09, 19:30 /  #
krysia:
You should here the Chicago Polish. Poles don't want to learn english, so they form their own language

Pole in the UK who wants to learn English but is too lazy:
"Aj i moja łajf go lotniska. Z doter kambak, do ju, i drink, i wszyscy szczęśliwy i hom."
Spot the 8 or 9 English words in there. Perhaps he is learning more than I had previously thought.

I prefer to hear just one language per sentence, but as Seanus says, communication is communication.
Pinching PeteThreads: 1
Posts: 1,111
Joined: Feb 23, 08 		  Mar 12, 09, 19:33 /  #
krysia:
Brudne karpety. (Dirty carpets)

lol
HatefulBunch397Threads: -
Posts: 1,018
Joined: Nov 5, 08 		  Mar 12, 09, 19:34 /  #
English is overrated...
osiolThreads: 59
Posts: 4,714
Joined: Jul 25, 07 		  Mar 12, 09, 20:15 /  #
Poglish is underrated?
JeshcoThreads: 1
Posts: 11
Joined: Mar 7, 09 		  Mar 13, 09, 12:56 /  #
why is that?
welshguyinpolaThreads: 32
Posts: 462
Joined: Jan 9, 08 		  Mar 16, 09, 10:04 /  #
Id like to bring attention to the misuse of the word professor in Polish also. I hear alot of kids calling their reacher at school pan/pani professor. MAny of the older primary/secondary school teachers insist on their pupils calling them it. Talk about making urself out to be more important than u really are.
mafketisThreads: 17
Posts: 1,880
Joined: Mar 31, 08 		Edited by: mafketis   Mar 16, 09, 10:37 /  #
This isn't misuse, the word profesor (note spelling) has two different meanings in Polish.

Informally, it can refer to a high school teacher as a courtesy title (indicative of the respect traditionally given teachers in Poland). Generally it's a better idea to enforce ideas of formality and respect in Polish young people, otherwise they start doing things like knifing each other or their teachers. Polish students don't respond well to an informal approach and the canny teacher steps on their toes until they fall into line.

At universities, it's a formal academic title, not a professional one. Basically there are two higher degrees past the PhD in Poland.

dr habilitowany / habilitowana ("habilitated" doctor) no equivalent in English, but it requires a second dissertation (shorter than the first but it has to be published) and some other requirements.

profesor - again two versions, a university profesor has to have finished their habilitation and they have that title only at the university it was awarded to them, a national profesor (informally belwederski / belwederska named after the ceremonial palace in Warsaw where the title was officially awarded) has the title no matter where they are.
SeanusThreads: 22
Posts: 30,158
Joined: Dec 25, 07 		  Mar 16, 09, 10:43 /  #
For an even higher level of obscurity, LOL. It would seem to border on snooty elitism.

I learned that education and job training are 2 fundamentally different things. Teacher training, in all its manifest forms, equips you in a different way for plying your trade.
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