Formal "you" and Informal "you" : which is which?

Genvieve:

Here we see the use of the third person when addressing someone, in place of the second person. As we have been discussing, that is something unique in the Polish language--though as benszymanski pointed out, in very rare circumstances it might be done in English.

Lyzko	Jul 1, 09, 17:14 / #
Poles in the country almost always use the informal pl. form when addressing one another.

Lyzko	Jul 1, 09, 23:51 / #
Gen, my native language(s) is/are English and German. My reasons for learning Polish are the obvious reasons why anyone learns a foreign language: To communicate easily and fluidly with the natives of that countries or those countries where the language is used. Unlike, say, the Swedes or the Dutch, the Poles (like the Spanish) make no bones about their often poor English communications skills-:) Difference is, the former can sort of noodle along in English and sound reasonably intelligent, if a trifle vulgar. The same cannot usually be said for the Poles!

niejestemcapitaThreads: 3 Posts: 666 Joined: Jan 3, 09	Jul 2, 09, 00:10 / #
Lyzko On the contrary I have always been impressed by the level of English and German spoken by Polish people. Why come here just to make snotty comments like that? Is there something lacking in your life?

GenvieveThreads: 1 Posts: 23 Joined: Jun 24, 09	Jul 2, 09, 05:14 / #
Lyzko: Poles in the country almost always use the informal pl. form when addressing one another. Lyzko, do you mean that someone will use a PLURAL to address ONE person? In other words, use a plural for a singular meaning? Truly that seems strange to me, but I hope it answers your question, Polonius3. niejestemcapita: sorry you were offended. I don't think Lyzko meant to insult anyone. Here in the states, I'm very impressed by the good quality of English spoken and written by the Poles I know. Of course, they have an advantage that the Polish in Poland lack, namely being surrounded by the English language here. When they apologize to me for their English, I respond to them, "Your English is better than my Polish," and we all laugh. The biggest semantic error I hear the Polish make in their English is getting the word order right for questions. But that goes for ALL the different foreigners I hear speaking English. Proper English question form REVERSES some words, but most foreigners simply make a statement and raise their voice at the end of it to show that it is a question. Of course everyone here understands, but I listen carefully and I notice this again and again. Today I read my Polish friend's written English. He was writing directly to a woman about something she had written, and whereas a native English speaker would write "you," he used instead the third person for her, referring to her as "the writer." Because of all we discussed above on this post, for the first time I understood WHY he was writing like that. Needless to say, he was expressing himself as one would do in a polite way in Polish.

Lyzko	Jul 2, 09, 14:40 / #
Niejestemcapita, you misunderstood me! As Genevieve stated, I was only sharing my experience. As far as Poles speaking German, as with most Europeans (except of course the obvious-:)), their level of German FAR exceeds their English abilities. Once again, it's how English is packaged compared with German. English is the language of the US, low-level, pop culture, vulgarity. All of the latter is not the real American English, it's how it's been marketed, after all, the US is public relations country no 1 in the world today. LOL Marek

BondiThreads: 4 Posts: 148 Joined: Sep 11, 07	Edited by: Bondi Jul 3, 09, 10:00 / #
Genvieve: Here we see the use of the third person when addressing someone, in place of the second person. As we have been discussing, that is something unique in the Polish language--though as benszymanski pointed out, in very rare circumstances it might be done in English. Not as unique as it seems, European languages tend to do that. But it was a surprise for me to learn that Poles can also use 2nd/P (second person plural) - I thought only Russian use that for informal address these days. And as far as I know the English "you" had been 2nd/P long ago! The 2nd/S form was "thou". For me, the level of simplification is still perplexing, having just one word ("you") for at least four uses: 2nd/S informal, 2nd/P informal, 2nd/S formal, 2nd/P formal... And when there's a need to overcome this mess and a cry for a plural form of "you": you two, you all - but round'ere they just use "you lot" or "yous" most of the time. :)

Lyzko	Jul 3, 09, 23:21 / #
Up until the end of the 18th century, "ye" was both the formal and informal plural for more modern "you". "Thou", I'm told remains extant solely in isolated Northern English dialect, admittedly archaic and used primarily among either the elderly or the uneducated. Marek

Lyzko	Jul 3, 09, 23:30 / #
Slightly off topic, I'm hard pressed to find ANY language still spoken today, which doesn't have a 'formal'/'informal'-you distinction, except again, comtemporary standard English.

GenvieveThreads: 1 Posts: 23 Joined: Jun 24, 09	Jul 4, 09, 05:16 / #
Hi Bondi, Which "European languages" besides Polish use third person to address someone? It suprises me that second person plural should be used in Polish for informal. You say Russians do as well. In other languages I have studied, the second-person PLURAL is formal and the second person SINGULAR is informal. You seem to suggest that this is reversed in Polish. Am I correctly understanding you? I never heard that historically, English "you" was plural and "thou" was singular. If you have a reference for where you learned that, I would be interested to see it. I do think, as you do, that the lack of a plural "you" in English is a shortcoming. There are ways around it, as you demonstrate, yes, but none of them would be as good as a plural "you." The ways you write all seem rather informal, casual, some even backward. The lack of a formal and informal "you," however, I think is grand. One never has to make the decision which one to use, there are no errors, and on the psychological level, it points to an inherent equality among persons. I made other comments earlier in this thread about that--see post # 14. Interesting that English, with its egalitarian "you," should have developed in England, where a social class system was historically--and still--so prominent. Perhaps you are Hungarian. Lately I've been reading Andre Edy. Wish I could read him in the original. My real favorite, however, is Miklos Radnoti. His sensitive, melancholy verse is so touching. My favorite begins: "The moon hangs on a clouded sky/ I am surprised that I live/ Anxiously and with great care death looks for us/ And those it finds are all terribly white." (From Tajtekos eg) Thanks for writing.

GenvieveThreads: 1 Posts: 23 Joined: Jun 24, 09	Jul 4, 09, 05:34 / #
Thanks for your input, Lyzko. Your thoughts differ from Bondi's, in that you say "ye" was historically the English plural, whereas Bondi has "you" as the historical plural. And then there is poor I who never even knew that English once had a plural "you." I wish that I had taken a class on the history of the English language. I will have to be nice to the linguists in my life, maybe I'll take them out to lunch next week and wear my good perfume. Then I can pick their brains about all this "you" stuff. I'll announce the luncheon as a social engagement, a chance to catch up with each other, or as we say in America, to "touch base." Then I'll slowly veer the conversation onto the topic of "you." Most people are all too pleased to talk about themselves, so they will welcome my ventures into the vast territory of "you", which of course they will interpret as referring to themselves. That should provide a good seguay to this grammar issue, and by the time the luncheon is over, they will be sorry they ever met me, good perfume or no good perfume. Well, as we say, "A girl's gotta do what she's gotta do." I can't get ALL my knowledge from books, can I? That's too boring.

Lyzko	Jul 11, 09, 14:12 / #
No prob, Genevieve. Powodzenia a zabawij się z językiem polskim-:)) Our Forum is here precisely for such 'issues'. LOL

BzibziohThreads: 6 Posts: 3,648 Joined: Oct 15, 08	Jul 11, 09, 19:03 / #
Lyzko: Powodzenia a zabawij się z językiem polskim-:)) Huh?

Lyzko	Jul 11, 09, 19:08 / #
Good luck and enjoy the Polish language! = Viel Glueck und geniess mal die polnische Sprache! Ah, the pitfalls of 'translation'-:)-:) LOL

BzibziohThreads: 6 Posts: 3,648 Joined: Oct 15, 08	Jul 11, 09, 20:26 / #
Powodzenia i dobrej zabawy z językiem polskim. Lyzko: Ah, the pitfalls of 'translation'-:)-:) LOL for sure :)

z_dariusThreads: 22 Posts: 5,091 Joined: Oct 18, 07	Jul 4, 09, 05:35 / #
Genvieve: It suprises me that second person plural should be used in Polish for informal. It's not. Not when addressing a single person. In such contexts "wy" has never been informal.

Lyzko	Jul 4, 09, 21:44 / #
'Wy' is similar to the 'ihr' in German, a better analogy anyway than with present-day English, since the plural 'wy' is often used as a collective plural. In German, 'Wie geht's Ihnen?' might be more than one person and is ALWAYS formal or polite language. This is more the equivalent of 'Jak się państwo mają?' vs. 'Jak się pan(i) ma?', where in the latter only one person is being addressed. German 'Wie geht's Euch?', the dative plural form of 'ihr', would probably be equivalent to Polish 'Jak się macie?', English 'How are you (all)?'

GenvieveThreads: 1 Posts: 23 Joined: Jun 24, 09	Jul 4, 09, 23:45 / #
Proszę Bardzo, z_darius and Lyzko, for taking the time to clarify this.

GenvieveThreads: 1 Posts: 23 Joined: Jun 24, 09	Jul 11, 09, 06:00 / #
Genvieve: Proszę I meant DZIĘKUJĘ ! Obviously I need you for more than pronoun issues!

Lyzko	Jul 11, 09, 20:54 / #
Oddly, my first choice 'dobrej zabawy'-:)))) Ought to have trusted by instincts. Rather similar to German here 'Amuesier dich gut...!' or 'Viel Spass!' English, I suppose 'Have fun!' 'Have a good time!' etc... Thanx,