a new Polish alphabet for internet and sms....

mafketis:

On the other hand, the very thought of trying to read a 10 page article or book without diacritics is awful.I heard once that in the 50's there was serious thought given to replacing cz, sz, rz and ż in Polish with the Czech letters č š ř ž and replacing w with v.

EsevaThreads: 1 Posts: 8 Joined: Jul 4, 07	Apr 4, 08, 12:24 / #
Czesjcj everyone. More and more often I notice that the Polish diacritics in Polish texts(on internet and in SMS) are completely left out. If those marks are left out, the language is afcourse unreadable for those who learn Polish. I do regret the lack of using the ogonki a lot,because those special letters make the Polish language so very caracteristic and are also indispensible,becouse they represent the exact pronunciation of words. So I thought of a new "Polish alphabet" (for SMS and Internet use....) Here is my version: Ą = on,om : mądry will be written: mondry Ć,Ź,Ń,Ś,Ż = cj ,zj,nj,sj,zj cześć will be written "czesjcj " Ę = en ,em , następny will be nastempy,wędkarstwo,wendkarstwo Ó = oe, so the word ogród will be ogroed Ł= -l ,so the word wesoły will look like weso-ly It should be the one and only solution to those who lack to use the Polish signs in internet texts,but at least make their written texts readable....So I am proud to present the New Polish Internet And SMS Alphabet!

WroclawThreads: 77 Posts: 7,404 Joined: Apr 1, 06 [Moderator]	Apr 4, 08, 12:29 / #
Wouldn't it be easier to use T9.

Easy_TerranThreads: 4 Posts: 473 Joined: Mar 31, 08	Apr 4, 08, 13:07 / #
My Japanese friend, who happened to know few Polish words always uses commas and apostropies to indicate the proper letter. Pączki - pa,czki Cześć - czes'c'

AnotherGuest	Apr 5, 08, 15:20 / #
It is a much better idea ;)) The first idea is very very bad. It is the shortest way to gain bad orto habits ;( Polish is quite understandable without diacritics at least for me.

mamayeThreads: 2 Posts: 40 Joined: Mar 31, 08	Apr 5, 08, 16:13 / #
agree with anotherGuest! without diacritics if fine, everyone understands, and we use it here in Poland even in emails (because of laziness, to be honest...;( ) so, bad habit anyway.

DaveyThreads: 17 Posts: 436 Joined: Jun 29, 07	Apr 5, 08, 17:56 / #
I would just not include the accents...mądry-madry, cześć-czesc it would be understood just fine that way

MareGaeaThreads: 45 Posts: 5,527 Joined: Feb 6, 08	Apr 5, 08, 18:13 / #
I think Polish would be a lot easier to learn when they would not use: ĄąĆćĘęŁ łńÓóŚśŹźŻż I know how to pronounce most of them, but it would just be easier for non-PL ppl when they just wouldn't use them :) M-G

PolsonThreads: 15 Posts: 2,812 Joined: May 9, 07	Apr 5, 08, 18:30 / #
AnotherGuest: Polish is quite understandable without diacritics at least for me mamaye: agree with anotherGuest! without diacritics if fine, everyone understands Eseva: the language is afcourse unreadable for those who learn Polish Eseva: Ó = oe, so the word ogród will be ogroed Did you take if from Dutch ? ^^ Eseva: Ą = on,om Eseva: Ę = en ,em Aren't there Polish regions that already write like this ?...Or dialects ?... For my part, i created a "new" Polish for fun, it looks like this : Ja eist jak en mal kmor gobend av tvai okern, Ja teist bem skast av pusten ale mogg nei ladst. ... ;)

MareGaeaThreads: 45 Posts: 5,527 Joined: Feb 6, 08	Apr 5, 08, 18:34 / #
Polson: Did you take if from Dutch I suspect you are Dutch :) But indeed; the senstenses you wrote without the diacritics are much easier to pronounce and understand...As for Dutch: how about the uu and ij and eu? :) M-G

PolsonThreads: 15 Posts: 2,812 Joined: May 9, 07	Apr 5, 08, 18:41 / #
MareGaea: I suspect you are Dutch :) Why ? I could also be South-African or Surinamese ;) MareGaea: uu No such sound in Polish, right ? MareGaea: ij [aj] ?... MareGaea: eu Hmm...French "eu", German "ö", English "uh", Norwegian "ø"...oh you meant in Polish ?...oops ^^

JustysiaSThreads: 15 Posts: 2,869 Joined: Oct 14, 07 MEMBER	Apr 5, 08, 18:49 / #
Polson: She was talking for foreigners, people learning Polish, not about Polish students ;) um so its ok in your opinion to teach foreigners BAD Polish? interesting

PolsonThreads: 15 Posts: 2,812 Joined: May 9, 07	Apr 5, 08, 18:56 / #
JustysiaS: um so its ok in your opinion to teach foreigners BAD Polish? interesting Well, she was talking only about SMSs and emails...if there are foreigners who want to write a book, they would have to write it correctly of course ;)

JustysiaSThreads: 15 Posts: 2,869 Joined: Oct 14, 07 MEMBER	Apr 5, 08, 19:04 / #
Polson: Well, she was talking only about SMSs and emails...if there are foreigners who want to write a book, they would have to write it correctly of course ;) but then they will have to basically learn Polish all over again if they wanna write or read anything else in Polish. as someone else here said, we dont use the Polish accents when txting or emailing. if you wanna learn a foreign language, learn it properly i say. emailing or txting is not an excuse to make mistakes anyway. and it wont make the txters life easier as they will have to use more symbols to write a Polish word if they are to follow that stupid idea.

AnotherGuest	Apr 5, 08, 20:16 / #
Polson: Well, she was talking only about SMSs and emails...if there are foreigners who want to write a book, they would have to write it correctly of course ;) I don't know how good is your polish but you should keep in mind we using ę and em in quite different words - for example : tępo and tempo. If you substitute ę by em each time you will never know what is correct and what is not. That is the main reason why non native polish or polish students too should strongly avoid that scheme. If someone need strongly diacritics much better would be different scheme ee=ę aa=ą ll=ł or lL=ł nN=ń Nn=Ń repeat the letter or repeat the second letter with shift especially for ń, ł. koń = konN etc. But still you have to learn how you should correctly pronounce ę, em etc. That way you will be able to avoid bad habits i hope. Regards

JustysiaSThreads: 15 Posts: 2,869 Joined: Oct 14, 07 MEMBER	Apr 5, 08, 18:41 / #
Eseva: mondry Eseva: nastempy, wendkarstwo you will get a pała if you write like that in Polish class, sorry but promoting this sort of spelling is ridiculous AnotherGuest: The first idea is very very bad. It is the shortest way to gain bad orto habits ;( yeah exactly

MareGaeaThreads: 45 Posts: 5,527 Joined: Feb 6, 08	Apr 5, 08, 18:42 / #
Polson: South-African OMG, no :) M-G

PolsonThreads: 15 Posts: 2,812 Joined: May 9, 07	Apr 5, 08, 18:46 / #
JustysiaS: AnotherGuest: The first idea is very very bad. It is the shortest way to gain bad orto habits ;( yeah exactly She was talking for foreigners, people learning Polish, not about Polish students ;) MareGaea: Polson: South-African OMG, no :) Why not, Afrikaan is pretty close to Nederlands ;)

PolsonThreads: 15 Posts: 2,812 Joined: May 9, 07	Apr 5, 08, 20:23 / #
AnotherGuest: ee=ę aa=ą ll=ł or lL=ł nN=ń Nn=Ń repeat the letter or repeat the second letter with shift especially for ń, ł. Good idea :)

AnotherGuest	Apr 5, 08, 20:32 / #
@ Polson That way even if you 100 time will write: "blondynka jest teEpa" in your mails you never want to write "blądynka jest tempa" in your books ;) ,as you never get bad habits like on=ą or em=ę Mam nadziejeE zZe plLecC pieEkna wybaczy mi ten przyklLad z blondynkaA ;) Regards

JustysiaSThreads: 15 Posts: 2,869 Joined: Oct 14, 07 MEMBER	Edited by: JustysiaS Apr 5, 08, 20:40 / #
AnotherGuest: Mam nadziejeE zZe plLecC pieEkna wybaczy mi ten przyklLad z blondynkaA ;) masz szczeEsScie, zZe jestem brunetkaA lol (this is kinda weird, but better than using gramatically incorrect words) what about ź?

AnotherGuest	Apr 5, 08, 20:51 / #
@Polson If you get enough practice you will find the extra capitalics are redundant so you will write and read without diacritics as most native Polish. Except some exceptions: sąd (court), sad (where apples growing for example) etc, but here context can help at most cases.

AnotherGuest	Apr 5, 08, 20:55 / #
JustysiaS: what about ź? Maybe zX ? ps. Bardzo sympatyczne forum Pozdrowienia

mafketisThreads: 17 Posts: 1,880 Joined: Mar 31, 08	Apr 6, 08, 12:04 / #
Polish without diacritics in email or texting is easy enough to read as long as diacritics are used everywhere else so even the non-native user can tell from context what's intended (usually). On the other hand, the very thought of trying to read a 10 page article or book without diacritics is awful. I heard once that in the 50's there was serious thought given to replacing cz, sz, rz and ż in Polish with the Czech letters č š ř ž and replacing w with v. So that (to take a paragraph or two from onet) Polish would look like this: "Stany Zjednočone i Rosja traktują povstanie tarčy antyrakietovej v Polsce jako zdecydovane i rozmaviają o tym jako o fakcie dokonanym ponad głovami Polakóv - poviedział politolog amerykanista dr Gřegoř Kostřeva-Zorbas. - To jest rezultat strategičnego błędu, który Polska popełniła na ščycie NATO v Bukarešcie, gdzie vystępovała v dvóch rolach na raz: jako kraj, na terenie którego tarča može povstać vedług planu amerykańskiego i jako jeden z sojušnikóv, któřy ten plan přyjęli z uznaniem. Zatem Polska přesądziła vynik svoich negocjacji z Ameryką. Rezultatem tego błędu jest přyjęcie v Vašyngtonie, v Moskvie i na śviecie překonania, že tarča v Polsce povstanie - poviedział Kostřeva-Zorbas."

AnotherGuest	Apr 6, 08, 12:13 / #
mafketis: On the other hand, the very thought of trying to read a 10 page article or book without diacritics is awful.I heard once that in the 50's there was serious thought given to replacing cz, sz, rz and ż in Polish with the Czech letters č š ř ž and replacing w with v. Why do you want repalce cz, rz, sz ? There are only common letters contain c,r,s,z ? If you are able to indentyfying such pairs, so what is the problem for you to reading (pronounce them ) correctly ? Regards

z_dariusThreads: 22 Posts: 5,091 Joined: Oct 18, 07	Apr 6, 08, 12:15 / #
Easy_Terran: Pączki - pa,czki Cześć - czes'c' This sounds like the Polish Internet alphabet in yonder years, when there was no clicking or pretty pictures - only command line that looked similar one of the VT screens.

AnotherGuest	Apr 6, 08, 12:26 / #
z_darius: Easy_Terran: Pączki - pa,czkiCześć - czes'c'This sounds like the Polish Internet alphabet in yonder years, when there was no clicking or pretty pictures - only command line that looked similar one of the VT screens. It is allways good until you avoid substitiutions kind like ą=on or ę=em, and you able to avoid that way traps of getting bad habits.

mafketisThreads: 17 Posts: 1,880 Joined: Mar 31, 08	Apr 6, 08, 14:29 / #
AnotherGuest: Why do you want repalce cz, rz, sz ? There are only common letters contain c,r,s,z ? Did you really read what I wrote? I wasn't giving my proposal but repeating one that I heard had been taken seriously at one time and showing what the result would have looked like. I'm pretty neutral on whether it would have been a good idea (now it wouldn't be). And I have no idea what that last sentence is supposed to mean.

AnotherGuest	Apr 6, 08, 15:39 / #
mafketis: Did you really read what I wrote? I wasn't giving my proposal but repeating one that I heard had been taken seriously at one time and showing what the result would have looked like. I'm pretty neutral on whether it would have been a good idea (now it wouldn't be). Yes i did. I strongly doubt you are REALLY neutral as you posted that example. So i've assumed you read this thread topic and you agree that idea is helpfull for this thread. In other way you risk you posting out of topic completely useless examples. The same usefull as only "bla bla bla". mafketis: And I have no idea what that last sentence is supposed to mean. rz , sz, cz consists of four well known letters which are in english as well as in polish alphabet. So substitution of them with Czech letters has nothing to do with polish diacritics problem. Such substitution ( ř for rz ) is usefull if you are UNABLE identyfying rz particle, so in that case (after such substitution) you dont need to identyfying such particles as all will be substituted. But if you creating your post or sms you HAVE to know proper forms (of each polish word you are going to use ) before substitution and substitute all instances manually in a typing process. To do that you have to be able identyfying such particles personally without any other kind of help. So such coding scheme is useless at that (quite high or at least moderate ) language level. That scheme is only usefull when you are still very beginner. Which is unable to write such complicated messages personally, and still need help to indentyfying such simple particles as rz, cz, or sz. How do you write ( in your sms or email ) Kostřeva if you know only Kostrzewa (from your source materials which are not substituted) and still you are unable to identyfying rz to pronounce them correct ???? If you are unable to answer that question think twice before you create next post out of topic. Regards

Easy_TerranThreads: 4 Posts: 473 Joined: Mar 31, 08	Apr 7, 08, 13:03 / #
z_darius: This sounds like the Polish Internet alphabet in yonder years Hey, don't kill the messenger :) I just posted what my friend's doing while in contact with me. I didn't teach her that, she got from somewhere else. But anyways, I personally think is it a least 'some' idea, and this is very sweet that she put en effort to learn how the words should be properly written :)

F15guyThreads: 1 Posts: 230 Joined: Jan 14, 08	Edited by: F15guy Apr 24, 08, 00:02 / #
Setting your computer up with a Polish keyboard is easy and ąćęłńóśźż can be easily typed from it using the Alt key plus ace, etc. Grzegorz Jagodziński has an excellent page on setting this up on your computer: Keyboard Drivers Use Help and Support on the Start menu of your computer. Put language in topic and the system will advise you how to install other languages.