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Rok vs. Lat


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polamThreads: 6
Posts: 13
Joined: Jan 26, 09 		  Jan 29, 09, 13:10 /  #
I understand both of these Polish words to mean "year." Is that correct? If so, how do you choose between them when writing a sentence?
SeanBMThreads: 41
Posts: 8,726
Joined: Mar 10, 08 		Edited by: SeanBM   Jan 29, 09, 13:13 /  #
singular = Rok

Plural = Lat(a)

1 Rok
2 Lata
3 Lata
4 Lata
5 Lat
SeanusThreads: 22
Posts: 30,158
Joined: Dec 25, 07 		  Jan 29, 09, 13:19 /  #
Very good question, polam.

For example, mieszkam w gliwicach od 4 lata means I have lived in Gliwice for 4 years.

Robiłem to przez pięć lat means I was doing it for 5 years.

Rok refers more to things like horoscopes (rocznik). It's hard, the more I think about it, the harder it gets. Urodziłem się w latach siedem dziesiątych, I was born in the 70's. Rocznikowo jest inaczej.

W którym roku urodziłes się? In which year were you born?

Rok is more about the concrete year, like what year you were born or what year of your studies you are in. Lat is more for counting time. Hmm....close enough. There are exceptions of course, being Polish ;) ;) For example, raz na rok means once a year. However, raz is the counter.

I hope I haven't confused you as I've certainly confused myself. Time for my 2nd beer to restore some clarity to proceedings :)
Lotnik767Threads: 6
Posts: 210
Joined: Nov 12, 08 		  Jan 29, 09, 13:20 /  #
year vs. years
SeanusThreads: 22
Posts: 30,158
Joined: Dec 25, 07 		  Jan 29, 09, 13:21 /  #
That's the simplified version, yes, but polam asked for sentences.
benszymanskiThreads: 9
Posts: 510
Joined: Feb 29, 08 		  Jan 29, 09, 13:24 /  #
Funnily enough we have just been talking about the rok/lata thing on my blog:

britishinpoland.com/blog/2008/12/5-polish-language-oddities
DaveyThreads: 17
Posts: 436
Joined: Jun 29, 07 		  Jan 29, 09, 13:26 /  #
isnt the genitive of 'lato' also 'lata?
benszymanskiThreads: 9
Posts: 510
Joined: Feb 29, 08 		  Jan 29, 09, 13:29 /  #
Davey:
isnt the genitive of 'lato' also 'lata?

exactly - the word "years" and "summers" in Polish is the same...
McCoyThreads: 46
Posts: 1,756
Joined: Jul 3, 08 		  Jan 29, 09, 13:33 /  #
in polish lata means years and summers because the going by seasons were the measure of time.
polamThreads: 6
Posts: 13
Joined: Jan 26, 09 		  Jan 29, 09, 14:00 /  #
Thank you all for your responses. Now, for the next obvious question, does anybody know how the plural of rok became lata? I know every language has irregularities, but this one is really irregular.
dtaylorThreads: 15
Posts: 992
Joined: Sep 15, 07 		  Jan 29, 09, 14:01 /  #
Is it a bit like the "for" and "since" thing?

Or a bit like lat means period of a year, where as if u use rok, it means a year from this time, i.e ; i've lived here for 1 rok, meaning jan 2008??

This does confuse me :/
MarekThreads: 4
Posts: 1,120
Joined: Feb 15, 07 		  Jan 29, 09, 14:29 /  #
That darned number five (pięć) buggers everything up!! 'Rok' is fine up until good ol' five and then.....chaos: 2-4 lata, 5 lat and from there onward things are never quite the same!
Other nouns function in like manner: 2-4 pączki, 5 pączków, etc...
osiolThreads: 59
Posts: 4,714
Joined: Jul 25, 07 		  Jan 29, 09, 14:42 /  #
I have a tendency to imitate. I was asked about some sort of "rok" so I responded with a "rok" but it turned out it should have been a "lat", or possibly a "lata". As I've forgotten the example, I won't even know for next time.
DaveyThreads: 17
Posts: 436
Joined: Jun 29, 07 		  Jan 29, 09, 15:00 /  #
polam:
does anybody know how the plural of rok became lata

I think it has to do with being a time thing...like tydzień-tygodne
benszymanskiThreads: 9
Posts: 510
Joined: Feb 29, 08 		  Jan 29, 09, 15:56 /  #
Davey:
I think it has to do with being a time thing

Could well be - often the most commonly used expressions in a language (such as expressions of time, the verb "to be" etc..) are the most irregular...
cinekThreads: 1
Posts: 264
Joined: Nov 16, 07 		Edited by: cinek   Jan 30, 09, 03:35 /  #
'Lata' is just plural of 'rok'.

Here are all the cases:

Singular:

M. rok
D. roku
C. rokowi
B. rok
N. rokiem
Mc. roku
W. roku!

Plural:

M. lata
D. lat
C. latom
B. lata
N. latami
Mc. latach
W. lata!

You just need to know the 1, 2-4, 5.. rule to use the proper case, and that's it.

And regarding the years-summers thing, it's common not only in Polish that names of seasons or other events used as measures of time (especially in older writings).
e.g.
moons-months (in (old) Polish Księżyc (moon) sometimes is called miesiąc (month)), Sundays-weeks (niedziele-tygodnie)
Springs-years (wiosny-lata (oh, this one really looks strange :-|) )

Some example, just a short love story ;-) (really old-fashioned)

Było jej sidemnaście wiosen. (she was 17)
Spotkali się w świetle miesiąca. (they met in moonlight)
W cztery niedziele byli już po słowie. (in 4 weeks the were already engaged)

If anyone still interested, in the past the plural of 'rok' used to be regular: roki

M. roki
D. roków
C. rokom
B. roki
N. rokami
Mc. rokach
W. roki!

but this form is not used any more in contemporary Polish (however, still perfectly understandable and correct from grammatical point of view).

Cinek
MarekThreads: 4
Posts: 1,120
Joined: Feb 15, 07 		  Jan 30, 09, 07:23 /  #
Nice, Cinek! Thanks loads. I learned something, never read a complete history of Polish as yet.

In certain poetry or elevated use, I've seen 'latY' with a 'y' as in a line from a poem by Iwaszkiewicz "...przez laty do laty..", the latter used in the genitive plural much less-:)
cinekThreads: 1
Posts: 264
Joined: Nov 16, 07 		  Feb 1, 09, 10:09 /  #
Marek:
In certain poetry or elevated use, I've seen 'latY' with a 'y'

Right, I forgot that one, but I know it as instrumantalis (narzędnik), not genetivus (dopełniacz) e.g.

Przed dwoma laty - 2 years ago

in fact, this form is much more often used than 'latami'. But in colloquial language most people would say just: 'dwa lata temu'

Cinek
Kamil_plThreads: -
Posts: 69
Joined: Dec 24, 08 		Edited by: Kamil_pl   Feb 4, 09, 10:48 /  #
cinek:
Lata' is just plural of 'rok'.

Rok doesn't have plular form. Lata is a different word, which is only used as plular form of rok. You could use wiosen, or jesieni, instead of lata.
I remember a tv turney, and a question about plular form of rok. Some guy have said "lata", and it was wrong answer, because as I said, rok doesn't have plular form.
MarekThreads: 4
Posts: 1,120
Joined: Feb 15, 07 		  Feb 4, 09, 13:28 /  #
But 'rok' did indeed have a plural form, only to be subsumed years later by 'lat_' as the measurement classificiation of years/summers melded into one.
tygrysThreads: 2
Posts: 403
Joined: Dec 28, 07 		  Feb 4, 09, 13:58 /  #
Rok is a year (like 1990)
Rok is an age - 1 year old (singular)

Lata - 4 lata -(4 years old)
Lata - flying
Lato - summer, podczas lata ( during summer)
ElsshaThreads: 1
Posts: 152
Joined: Jan 26, 09 		Edited by: Elssha   Feb 5, 09, 08:48 /  #
Seanus:
mieszkam w gliwicach od 4 lata means I have lived in Gliwice for 4 years

od 4 lat
SeanusThreads: 22
Posts: 30,158
Joined: Dec 25, 07 		  Feb 5, 09, 14:22 /  #
Ah yes, you are right. I even have it written correctly in my nasza-klasa.pl account but I just slipped up.

Thanks for the correction :)
cinekThreads: 1
Posts: 264
Joined: Nov 16, 07 		  Feb 5, 09, 15:11 /  #
Kamil_pl:
Lata is a different word, which is only used as plular form of rok.

Hmm, so going that way you say that there's no plural for 'czlowiek' too, or there's no past or future form for 'jestem' ???

'Lata' IS plural form of 'rok', but it is just IRREGULARITY, which means that some gramatical forms of words may be more different than just different ending.
The word 'lata' may mean 'summers' or 'years', depending on the context, and that doesn't mean that 'years' and 'summers' are the same thing in Polish (but it'd be nice if summer was all year long :-) )

btw. don't learn too much from TV, they really do big mistakes.

Nie ogladaj telewizji, bo bedziesz miala w glowie glizdy, to cite famous Kabaret TEY ;-)

Cinek
MarekThreads: 4
Posts: 1,120
Joined: Feb 15, 07 		  Feb 5, 09, 15:22 /  #
Are not 'był'/'była'/'były'/'byli'/ etc. and 'będę' the respective past and future forms of 'jestem'?

Indeed, that 'człowiek' has no 'człowieki'-form in Polish DOES constitute a morphological irregularity.

This, among numerous other such, albeit linguistically explicable, irregularities. LOL
Kamil_plThreads: -
Posts: 69
Joined: Dec 24, 08 		  Feb 5, 09, 15:48 /  #
cinek:
Hmm, so going that way you say that there's no plural for 'czlowiek' too, or there's no past or future form for 'jestem' ???

I don't know about these words, but rok doesn't have plular form. That TV turney was "1 z 10", the most intelligent in polish tv.
ElsshaThreads: 1
Posts: 152
Joined: Jan 26, 09 		Edited by: Elssha   Feb 5, 09, 18:46 /  #
Kamil_pl:
but rok doesn't have plular form

yes it does... just antiquated and thus not normally/fully used.
I know my grandma will use roki when speaking of non-consecutive years
and I do believe I have still heard people use rokami on odd occasion...
"licze to rokami" I distinctly remember, though saying 'licze to latami' is just as correct (and I assume more widely used)
gumishu   Mar 2, 09, 22:39 /  #
'Rok' did have plural in the past 'roki' the word 'roki' is sometimes to be found in archaic Polish dictionaries
actually the word 'rok' meant - verdict, judgement (juridicial thing)
the notion of time was assumed as there was a time when there was just one day yearly for this kind of court events to be held
the noun 'rok' itself has much to do with 'rzecz' which means a thing in Polish
but used to mean 'speech, speaking' - so 'rok' must have been 'proclaiming a verdict';
there are some derivatives still that bear the meaning of 'speech, speaking' - 'narzecze' - dialect
Russian riecz' has roughly the same meaning as the old Polish 'rzecz'
The old meaning is also preserved in the adjective 'rzeczony' - ' the one in question, the one which is talked, mentioned about' (the adjective is in fact a past participle of a verb falling from use - 'rzec' ' to say,tell' - 'rzekł' 'he said'; 'rzecze' - 'he says')




Now 'lato' and 'lata'

Some older Polish dialects would count the age of a person in amount of springs he has lived - where spring is 'wiosna' this is actually in most cases the same as the amount of years he lived. 'Pięć wiosen' would be 5 years then.
Then some other old Polish dialects would count the age in summers. Summer is 'lato'. 'Pięć lat' would then be 5 years - and it still IS in modern Polish ;)

And this is as simple as this.
gumishu   Mar 2, 09, 22:41 /  #
and yes in some dialects 'roki' 'roków' replaces 'lata' and 'lat' up until now
ElsshaThreads: 1
Posts: 152
Joined: Jan 26, 09 		  Mar 2, 09, 22:49 /  #
gumishu:
so 'rok' must have been 'proclaiming a verdict'

isn't that wyrok....
nice bit of history, by the way ^_^
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