SŁUCHAĆ, or PRZYSŁUCHIWAĆ SIĘ?

Marek:

Much the same might be said of English: English is a banquet, a proverbial feast of color, texture and flavor......yet most of us 'suckers' relegate ourselves to mere fast food and takeaway, rather than the sensual pleasures of a deliciously rich, home-cooked meal.

FoxxiGold:

We mustn't put down efforts to communicate through our beloved English,

Marek:

Why this double standard??

Marek:

Why this double standard??

Lyzko:

Germans are often the same. "Vee build ze besst cahhss in ze virltt, ve make ze besst Inglisch zantensses tuu!"

Lyzko:

And as far as the chap before who felt he 'didn't need' to practice his English, most of us native speakers continue to perfect our native tongue throughout our whole lives, yet this bloke as a bleedin' foreigner doesn't need the practice?? Who does he think he is anyway? LOL

Lyzko:

The fault really lies then with the true culprits in all of this: Poland's Polish native-speaker English teachers at the lowest levels who merely propogate/pollute bad English into future generations!!

MarekThreads: 4 Posts: 1,120 Joined: Feb 15, 07	Jun 3, 09, 02:23 / #
Fitting summation. Couldn't have said it better myself:-)!! Hat off to you. LOL In one of my favorite classic Hollywood golden (never moldy) oldies from the early color days, "Aunty Mame" with the late, great Rosalind Russel, she remarks "Life is a banquet and most of you suckers are starving!!" Much the same might be said of English: English is a banquet, a proverbial feast of color, texture and flavor......yet most of us 'suckers' relegate ourselves to mere fast food and takeaway, rather than the sensual pleasures of a deliciously rich, home-cooked meal.

FoxxiGoldThreads: 6 Posts: 36 Joined: Apr 30, 08	Jun 3, 09, 11:54 / #
Marek: Much the same might be said of English: English is a banquet, a proverbial feast of color, texture and flavor......yet most of us 'suckers' relegate ourselves to mere fast food and takeaway, rather than the sensual pleasures of a deliciously rich, home-cooked meal. Beautifully said! This relates to one of my earlier points. I think there is 2 forms of English Language out there, both of which I believe serve Independently and Inter-dependently. Can one be without the other? Is one cause and effect of the other?

Lyzko	Jun 3, 09, 14:25 / #
Foxxi, I sincerely believe the one is the virtual handmaiden of the other, pardon the choice of words:-):-) I take your earlier point indeed! My principal 'beef', if you will, with this GLOBAL ENGLISH/GLOBISH, what have you.., is the mistaken notion that simply because world standards regarding English are being or have been dangerously eroded, the latter somehow justifies the constant misuse and abuse of the language, in the mass media or elsewhere, unchecked! When last in Berlin, I was discussing in German some point in psychology and the thesis of Dr. Mitscherlich's that somehow the Germans had built up a post-War 'wall' against dealing with the Nazi crimes, sort of s state of permanent denial which he calls in German "Abwehrmechanismus". As I proceeded to explain this, some bright young brat merrily chimes in 'Yeh, baaht ze Inglisch viaatt fawhh ziss iss mahch bettah, I ssink.., vay ve chahsst shtawpp tu spiek in Tschairm'n, Inglisch iss easier fawh us.....' The thing is this; when did healthy, honest 'practicing' a foreign language turn into confusing practice with acceptablly conversing in it, even though the language being practiced lags way, way behind the (English) native speaker's own competence?? There's the rub! Marek

FoxxiGoldThreads: 6 Posts: 36 Joined: Apr 30, 08	Jun 3, 09, 23:44 / #
Marek, I get the impression you've spent alot of time in Europe! I love your German accent (it only took 3 times to read before I understood it!). But isn't this English 'communication' just with a German accent?, or we could call it 'Germlish' ... I must admit I wouldn't want to be too critical here. I can't speak Polish with a Polish accent or an English accent, I just can't speak Polish! We mustn't put down efforts to communicate through our beloved English, but perhaps acknowledgement needs to be raised over Native English v Non Native English. There are very clear differences that could make up an entire University degree between - or at least a new module for TEFL (advanced). Those who claim to be fluent in the English language should be invited to partake of the 'Banquet'. Just a thought .....

niejestemcapitaThreads: 3 Posts: 666 Joined: Jan 3, 09	Jun 3, 09, 23:46 / #
FoxxiGold: We mustn't put down efforts to communicate through our beloved English, absolutely agree Foxxi...:)

MarekThreads: 4 Posts: 1,120 Joined: Feb 15, 07	Jun 4, 09, 01:22 / #
Surprisingly enough, I agree too. Ha-ha! So there:-):-) Again, let's just be frank with one another. Poles, Swedes, Croats, Germans ad infinitum ought to be in general more grateful for others who speak, yes, even mispronounce their language as they blithely mispronounce ours. I simply object to the double standard. Once when I was in Sweden, I inquired in Swedish as to the varying rates of the hotel's double rooms vs. their suites, whereupon the bellhop, a fellow of roundabout twenty-five, responded in a comprehensible yet overly slangy 'Americanlish' although I had addressed him only in Swedish, his first language. When I remarked politely, "Oh, I see you'd like to practice your English!" the typical answer was "Sorry, I think my English is fine, sir. Do I really need the practice??" I can tell y'all this much. If I were working in a hotel and I spoke, f.ex. in Spanish to a Spanish native speaker and I was said to be "practicing my Spanish skills", rather than take offense, I'd be no end grateful that someon who cared about their mother tongue, took the time to speak with and even (horrors!!) correct, my acquired second language!! Why this double standard??

niejestemcapitaThreads: 3 Posts: 666 Joined: Jan 3, 09	Jun 4, 09, 01:26 / #
Marek: Why this double standard?? Guess it's the price we pay for English being International language...:)

FoxxiGoldThreads: 6 Posts: 36 Joined: Apr 30, 08	Jun 4, 09, 12:20 / #
Marek: Why this double standard?? I can see your point, and must confess absolute ignorance through a lack of experience. I applaud anyone who makes a serious effect to learn another language, but I can't imagine anyone having the audacity to correct MY English or to snubb any help offered. That is just rude. Thats like me being fluent in Polish and then correcting a Polish native for their grammar use??? how does that work? I find it quite hard to imagine that a non native not living in UK/America would actually be that fluent! Maybe your bellboy was just a jobsworth disgruntled at his rejection from Oxford (or Harvard!) Bless ....

Lyzko	Jun 4, 09, 14:32 / #
Foxxi, you've got something there:-) Think one of us has hit the nail right on the head! By the way, believe it! Sweden, as with much of urban Scandinavia, come to think of it the rest of the Continent as well, is brimming over with such tart sorts as that young 'jobworth' (or 'jobunworth', geeez! Anyone that cheeky ain't comin' near MY office. The staff'd have their head on a platter!!) A 'reject' from Oxford (or Harvard!)??.... They should have such luck. More probably just an Ivy-League wannabe with an ego in excess of their intellect, but stroked into submission by a society/world which has told them "You're Nordics, i.e. you can do no wrong!!" LOL Germans are often the same. "Vee build ze besst cahhss in ze virltt, ve make ze besst Inglisch zantensses tuu!" Yeah, right. Go take your $%^&! and s_ _ _ e it, guys! Lovingly your, Marek ))))))))))

niejestemcapitaThreads: 3 Posts: 666 Joined: Jan 3, 09	Jun 4, 09, 14:42 / #
Lyzko: Germans are often the same. "Vee build ze besst cahhss in ze virltt, ve make ze besst Inglisch zantensses tuu!" haha fairy goot!..:) You make your best effort to say to something in Cherman, you get that lip curling smug sneer and, "Vy don't you say it in Inglish???"

Lyzko	Jun 6, 09, 16:04 / #
Recently, I read a sentence in a Polish magazine for tourists, obviously translated by a Pole into English. Incidentally, the French, German and, of course, Polish versions, contained ZERO errors, as far as i could tell: "In beautiful square center is found old fountainhead with image of girl. Nowhere has nothing such beautiful in Poland like that one by Wit Stos, different itself from the Germany version..." ...etc. ad nauseum! Marek

Lyzko	Jun 6, 09, 19:34 / #
Ooops, I misspelled 'propAgate' instead of 'propogate', just like 'propAganda' etc.. ))))) LOL Sorry, while I'm fiercely "correcting" others' mistakes (..and merily ignoring my own) :-)

Lyzko	Jun 6, 09, 20:27 / #
--:)! Thanx, gummi))) LOL

MarekThreads: 4 Posts: 1,120 Joined: Feb 15, 07	Jun 8, 09, 15:56 / #
Such ideal truly 'bilingual' instructors of English are rare in indeed, in Poland as elsewhere.I once met someone who was a completely bilingual French-born native English teacher from Paris many years ago. This person was equivalent to myself in German; spoke, wrote English with no trace of an accent, had a native French for the simple reason that one her parents was from Chicago, the other French born from Picard. Such desired combinations though are about as few and far between as one could imagine. Plus, most countries would have to pay such a rarity at least double the salary of the average native-born European from any of those countries who studied English in school and perhaps lived in the States or in the UK for a time. A wonderful dream to entertain, however, but rather impractical, I'm afraid:-)

MarekThreads: 4 Posts: 1,120 Joined: Feb 15, 07	Jun 4, 09, 16:23 / #
Almost always, except if the person's older and actually doesn't know much, or any, English. Very annoying. They only make themselves look silly:-) Surprise, surprise. LOL

Lyzko	Jun 5, 09, 14:24 / #
In the end though, what's really amusing about all this is that those in certain countries I've mentioned who think they are 'helping' foreigners by speaking to them or answering them in often broken English, is that they AREN'T helping at all!! Theirs is merely a gesture of goodwill and little else, sure not practical assistance)) Why not simply fess up to the fact that neither partner is truly conversant in the others language?? In the event the stray tourist runs into an unqualifiedly excellent English speaker, even that doesn't mean that the latter's English is perfect, merely adequate. And as far as the chap before who felt he 'didn't need' to practice his English, most of us native speakers continue to perfect our native tongue throughout our whole lives, yet this bloke as a bleedin' foreigner doesn't need the practice?? Who does he think he is anyway? LOL Kinda ridiculous! Marek

FoxxiGoldThreads: 6 Posts: 36 Joined: Apr 30, 08	Jun 5, 09, 15:16 / #
Lyzko: And as far as the chap before who felt he 'didn't need' to practice his English, most of us native speakers continue to perfect our native tongue throughout our whole lives, yet this bloke as a bleedin' foreigner doesn't need the practice?? Who does he think he is anyway? LOL Good Point! I've learned more about my native language in the last year than ...well ... I have for a long time, and the more I learn the MORE I WANT to learn. And learning doesn't stop with a qualification or certificate, or even the first time you clearly express yourself to someone and they understand your efforts. I humbly accept I have lots more to learn about MY OWN LANGUAGE and hopefully this will see me through good times .... Oh and I desperately need help with learning Polish - any takers??

gumishuThreads: 13 Posts: 3,634 Joined: Apr 6, 09	Jun 6, 09, 18:34 / #
very poor translation - it is a sad thing those who run things in Poland have such little knowlegde of English themselves and they hire people who are no professionals gosh I would have translated it much better it seems there are too many people in Poland who believe or claim they know English while they sure have just gulped a couple of phrases and that's all

Lyzko	Jun 6, 09, 19:08 / #
My point precisely, Gumishu:-) The fault really lies then with the true culprits in all of this: Poland's Polish native-speaker English teachers at the lowest levels who merely propogate/pollute bad English into future generations!! Jak wstyd!

gumishuThreads: 13 Posts: 3,634 Joined: Apr 6, 09	Jun 6, 09, 20:03 / #
merrily ;)

FoxxiGoldThreads: 6 Posts: 36 Joined: Apr 30, 08	Jun 8, 09, 14:46 / #
Lyzko: The fault really lies then with the true culprits in all of this: Poland's Polish native-speaker English teachers at the lowest levels who merely propogate/pollute bad English into future generations!! Isn't part of the problem that those sufficient enough to teach English, i.e English Native, aren't fluent in Polish and therefore will feel not qualified enough to teach in Poland?? I would possibly like to teach English in Poland, but feel that I wouldn't survive in Poland as my Polish is very limited ....

Lyzko	Jun 10, 09, 21:25 / #
It's often embarrassing for foreigners who unwittingly translate from the native language into English and don't understand the other's perplexed or amused reaction as well as the reverse, such as when an American learns Spanish and eventually musters the confidence to confess to their teacher "Estoy embarrasado." thinking it means "I'm embarrassed." when in fact it means "I'm pregnant" etc.. Once a man from Spain sent a letter stating his purpose for applying to our school to teach English: Greetings! I am Carlos Manuel and am responsible for the gestation of my enterprise. Since 1995 I am in lavor with XYZ company also I make erections all over the world.... After we'd all recovered from laughter, we realized, those of us Spanish speakers, that he was working in the "gestacion" or "financial management" of the firm (a construction crew, it turned out) and had been working there from 1995 until present, finally, that his company set up building sites in many international locations. ))))))))))

richardcronos	Jul 9, 09, 05:03 / #
not doubting your ability Marek. but the guy probably wanted to get some practice in English and was hoping you might speak back to him in English.

richardcronos	Jul 9, 09, 05:10 / #
Marko quoted a similar case, but where the person spoke English. If someone in a non-English country asks you speak English, I would assume that maybe they are in a hurry and don't have time to understand you talking their language, or possibly they find your speech in their language difficult to understand. I would not assume, just because i was talking in another language, that everyone found me easy to understand. even some native speakers of english are difficult to understand.

richardcronos	Jul 9, 09, 05:18 / #
i don't see anything sinister in the bellhop's actions. at worst, he wanted to show off his Engish. More likely, he was a human being making a choice to maximise communication with the other person.

Lyzko	Jul 9, 09, 14:32 / #
Richardcronos, noone, least of all myself, ever initmated that the bellhop's actions were in any way "sinister" (perhaps he was even right-handed-:) he-he! sorry, bad pun)))) ), merely typical of the arrogance of numerous Europeans in particular, who imagine their English to be something which it isn't, nor may ever be!! LOL In addition, this attitude amongst the Scandis especially, ends up making a not so gentle mockery of those of us out there who take language as well as communication seriously. As the world becomes ever more polluted with garbage from Youtube, Craigslist, this list, that list etc...., I should think that someone whose language skills in the other person's language are superior to theirs in English, would just maybe step back, have the modesty to admit that there's something which they don't know and, figuratively speaking of course, 'bow to' the other person's superior language skills instead of charging full steam ahead and never actually bothering to improve!!! Marek