Two questions for people who learn polish

mafketis:

Don't shy away from translated stuff. Many cultures reserve native language literature for smart stuff and outsource the mindless garbage to English speaking countries (which we're very good at producing). But it's the mindless garbage that has the most to teach you in the beginning.

SunflowerThreads: 15 Posts: 102 Joined: Jun 29, 07	Feb 20, 09, 03:07 / #
Dannyboy: Luckily, I find lots of similarities between Polish and Irish. Ooh, do explain!!

MarekThreads: 4 Posts: 1,120 Joined: Feb 15, 07	Feb 20, 09, 14:41 / #
Although I don't speak ANY Celtic languages, I'd imagine that Irish shares with Polish a similarly complex declension system. What I've heard though of spoken Irish, briefly on St. Paddy's Day etc., it sounds more or less unphonetic, if I compare it to written language, e.g. 'Siobbhan' (Shavon), 'Sinead' (Shenaid) or the toast 'Slante!' (Slancha) etc.. Merely the first impressions of a total novice in Irish (...with more than a passing knowledge of Polish LOL)

nessaxoxo84Threads: - Posts: 1 Joined: Feb 20, 09	Feb 20, 09, 21:06 / #
Question: What is the best way to learn Polish? I don't expect to speak well, but I would love to be able to have a better understanding!

rudzionThreads: - Posts: 9 Joined: Feb 11, 09	Feb 25, 09, 19:47 / #
nessaxoxo84: What is the best way to learn Polish? I listen music, read lyrics and then trying to find some translating of it =] p.s. Tak też właśnie się uczę (angielskiego) - pisząc na Tym forum =]

MarekThreads: 4 Posts: 1,120 Joined: Feb 15, 07	Edited by: Marek Feb 25, 09, 21:30 / #
Learn Polish for what purpose? Conversation? Then Rudzion's right. Literature? Try easy children's stories (NOT poetry at the very beginning, remember, you aren't a native speaking child learning their mother tongue and you'll only get terribly confused!) at first, moving to more advanced short stories, later "graduating" to higher-level writing e,g. Orzeszkowa etc.. Newspapers are fine, but really only make sense at the intermediate to advanced stage, at least that's how it was for me-:) Begin by doing nothing but listening and simple dications, on your own or with a teacher (preferrably a Polish native speaker). Polish, as with other Slavic languages, requires considerable concentration in recognizing speech vs. written thought patterns. DON'T learn slang right at the outset. You'll think you sound 'cool', but you won't; you'll merely sound like a foreigner trying to sound like a Pole. Even idioms. Don't bite off more than you can comfortably chew in the beginning or you're only likely to choke (..on your words) and bring up gibberish instead of expressing the normal, cogent, educated thoughts you enjoy discussing in your native language. Powodzenia!

mafketisThreads: 17 Posts: 1,880 Joined: Mar 31, 08	Feb 26, 09, 09:46 / #
My feelings on reading (in any foreign language) Start easy. Children's books aren't necessarily easy (IME). Just remember, there's no shame in dumb, dumb is your best friend and you'll never get to smart and stimulating without spending some time honing your skills on dumb material. In terms of newspapers, aim low. Find the newspaper that the dumbest people read (that's not an out and out scandal sheet) and just read the headlines everyday until you understand most of them with no help from the dictionary (or grammar book). Then start with short, short news blurbs. Crime blurbs are good for this. Don't push things and let comprehension come on its own. When the dumb newspaper gets too boring then move up to the next rung on the ladder. With literature. Again, start off dumb, dumb and dumber. Cheap pulp genre literature is your very best friend. Comic books are good too. What you want in the beginning is something that will be easy because you already know the basic outlines of the story. Romance novels and murder mysteries are the best but westerns and crime novels aren't bad either. Don't shy away from translated stuff. Many cultures reserve native language literature for smart stuff and outsource the mindless garbage to English speaking countries (which we're very good at producing). But it's the mindless garbage that has the most to teach you in the beginning. Alternate two separate kinds of reading (in separate sources) 1. skimming, keep reading as fast as you can. Try to figure out words in context but donn't make any special effort to remember them, the motto is: full speed ahead. What you want to do is get to the stage where you can follow the broad outlines of the plot even if you don't understand every word (or sentence or paragraph or page). 2. detailed, obsessive reading where you want to know what every syllable means (random paragraphs one at a time out of order are good for this). A story you've already skimmed all the way through is good for this. 3. reading out loud (with no regard for comprehension). a couple minutes of this four or five times a week will work wonders (no one knows why, but it does). Also, the specifics of the language (or the people who speak it) may make some aspects of the process more difficult (or easier) than expected. Experiment around and find out what works for you.

ElsshaThreads: 1 Posts: 152 Joined: Jan 26, 09	Feb 26, 09, 10:00 / #
mafketis: Don't shy away from translated stuff. Many cultures reserve native language literature for smart stuff and outsource the mindless garbage to English speaking countries (which we're very good at producing). But it's the mindless garbage that has the most to teach you in the beginning. The other bonus to this approach is that you know the story beforehand, so when you're confused you still know what's going on and can thus assume what something means. I know my university's spanish class read Harry Potter in spanish for one of the classes, for example.

MarekThreads: 4 Posts: 1,120 Joined: Feb 15, 07	Feb 26, 09, 14:43 / #
Excellent advice, Mafketis! I concur in almost every respect, in addition, don't underestimate the importance of kiddie TV shows, apropos not being ashamed of seeming "dumb"--:):): LOL

SeanusThreads: 22 Posts: 30,158 Joined: Dec 25, 07	Feb 26, 09, 14:51 / #
I also agree. Elementary isn't so elementary sometimes. Sometimes grassroots materials can catch you out and even show you up. I would also add 'go with what is necessary'. Too many people try to cram things into their brains without sorting out what they need and what they don't. Learn how you think in your own language, not linguistically I mean, more which words you use. For example, there is not point in giving a dentist language which bakers use. Think how you express yourself in your own language and try saying the same in English. Conceptualise too when learning prepositions. Your own language should always come naturally to you so don't worry about losing accuracy in your own L1. Try to think of an imagine for, say, ON the tv (rather than IN the tv in Polish). I would recommend practice with the preposition AT. This is probably the most misused one.

MarekThreads: 4 Posts: 1,120 Joined: Feb 15, 07	Feb 26, 09, 15:17 / #
Yes indeed, Seanus. This too often includes teachers starting beginners off at a level way over their heads, e.g. poetry, classic lit. etc., which the teacher him/herself enjoys, but is pedagogically as well as often culturally irrelevant to the learner and frequently, not only confuses, but in fact, can wreak irreperable damage on the student who learns outdated idioms/etc.. and later can't "unlearn" what they've been taught, like my 'computer virus' example of a basic error which may never be rid from the system! Amending my own earlier post regarding short story reading at a more advanced level, I ought to have included more mid-to late 20th century authors in my list of favored writing-:)

MarekThreads: 4 Posts: 1,120 Joined: Feb 15, 07	Edited by: Marek Feb 26, 09, 15:47 / #
No, jaka szkoda! Szybkiego wyzdrowienia, Seanus-:) Writing's tough, this is true. Conversely, higher-level, i.e. A-level English in, among other EU-countries, Poland should also be taught, ideally, by English (British or US/Canadian) native speakers. This probably won't happen though, as it'd be much too expensive for the government to pay, that is sponsor, foreign nationals (even if EU members). Therefore, the bulk of the population will continue to be left to ill-equipt, Polish native speaking instructors, often with heavy accents, and less than fluent working knowledge of either English-language literature in the original, or, the sheer experience of having taught same in English to English speakers, say, in highschool or college, perhaps abroad, like the UK, the US or Canada.

BondiThreads: 4 Posts: 148 Joined: Sep 11, 07	Edited by: Bondi Mar 11, 09, 21:16 / #
Marek: Therefore, the bulk of the population will continue to be left to ill-equipt, Polish native speaking instructors, often with heavy accents, and less than fluent working knowledge (...) I disagree. In Central-Eastern-Europe, the problem is still in their methods. Language teaching is still based on the old academic path of “read the text + listen to it [as an option] + learn the vocabulary + regurgitate everything word by word”. The whole learning process is boring and repelling, even for the “linguistically talented” one. What they fail to understand is that these days it is very easy to make contact with the real language (i.e. outside the textbooks). You do not necessarily need a native tutor. When you need clear explanations in your own language (i.e. when you have to understand complex grammatical structures), a native English (or Polish, in this case) teacher is not much of use IMHO. You can “pick up” words and phrases from natives, but can never pick up grammar without making an effort. Accent is somewhere half-way between. It requires effort, and a good teacher should always begin the process by explaining basic phonetics. Of course, there is no such thing as a ‘proper’ pronounciation -- what I mean is that you have to be aware of the characteristics of the language. In Polish, for instance, you have to be aware of the difference between soft and hard consonants etc. (There’s a similar thing with the diphtongs + the triphtong in English). Then you can conform to a native dialect or accent (of your native teacher, or wherever you go/live in the world). @nessaxoxo84: if I’m not mistaken, you’re American. For a better understanding of Polish, I suggest you’d do plenty of “listening & reading”. Reading comes in the picture when you have to ‘develop’ your vocabulary -- and you want to do it on your own. There is a sticky topic here somewhere with links to online resources (i.e. stuff to listen to). Plus, most of the Polish movies’ DVDs have English subs these days.

MarekThreads: 4 Posts: 1,120 Joined: Feb 15, 07	Mar 12, 09, 15:12 / #
You're probably correct, Bondi. I'm still a bit too unfamiliar with foreign- specifically English-language pedagogy in Central and Eastern Europe. I did live for a time in Germany, as you've probably gleaned from my posts, and so have a much better insight into German English-language instruction. From experience, I can safely say that it's bloody awful! LOL. Oh sure, Germans seem to speak a lot of English abroad, as well as at home in international situations, yet, rarely is the quality of their English much good! Good enough perhaps to impress numerous monolingual or non-German-speaking foreign visitors, but hardly passes muster with an educated native (though many Germans then rationalize this lack as simply 'good enough' -:):):) ) Americans often see only the best and the brightest Germans who come to the States and teach at Harvard, MIT etc... and of course all sound practically like Brits, with flawless Oxfordian accents. This though, is scarcely the reality for the bulk of German speakers, both at home as well as abroad.

dora from polan	Oct 27, 09, 15:40 / #
przestańcie polskie jest prosty a to angielski sprawia wiele problemów Polish is easy, but english is very difficult (for me) ;)

SeanusThreads: 22 Posts: 30,158 Joined: Dec 25, 07	Feb 26, 09, 15:23 / #
That's the key, pitching it at a level that they will understand. Better to go lower than higher with difficulty levels. I don't teach writing that often. Private schools entrust native speakers with more speaking-based tasks. I don't feel like speaking much today though, I'm ill.

frdThreads: 8 Posts: 1,956 Joined: Feb 3, 09	Oct 27, 09, 15:48 / #
dora from polan: przestańcie polskie jest prosty polskie..? It looks like you're struggling with polish too..

OsiedleRuda	Oct 27, 09, 16:06 / #
frd: polskie..? It looks like you're struggling with polish too.. me too! přestanou, polský jazyk je jednoduchý lol

annonymous	Nov 18, 09, 12:43 / #
where do you got to to college becausei'm currently studying it at schoolbut having to teach myself and cant find a college anywhere:(?

Lyzko	Nov 18, 09, 14:25 / #
Which language, pray, would that be, Annonymous? English or Polish? Your English is certainly beginner to intermediate. No, czy jesteś Polakiem/Polką który/która uczy się angelskiego?

rozumiemnicThreads: 4 Posts: 1,019 Joined: Nov 16, 09	Nov 18, 09, 14:41 / #
Lyzko I thought it wasnt acceptable on this forum to insult others on the grounds of their language competence. Hardly a "beginner". Get over yourself.

Lyzko	Nov 18, 09, 17:05 / #
How's that "insulting"? Getting a trifle thin skinned, aren't we? LOL

emmajoThreads: 3 Posts: 19 Joined: Oct 29, 09	Edited by: emmajo Nov 18, 09, 17:45 / #
Roublard I have two questions for people, who learn polish: What in the polish language is the most difficult and hard for you? What is interesting and better than in english? What I find the most difficult are all the different possibilities for word endings, and the way that some word stems change when they have an ending added to them! I am learning by myself with the help of a couple of books and the internet (and PF of course!) and it really is the hardest thing to grasp. I think that the whole language is interesting...and i've only been learning for a few months. The one thing that I think is better for a learner is the pronunciation. Once you know how to say a letter/combination of letters, you can usually have a reasonable attempt at saying a word. I only get told that i'm saying things wrong (when I actually try to say something that is!) because I say things with an English accent. With English, it's never quite that simple! ;-)

Lyzko	Nov 18, 09, 18:00 / #
I'd agree one hundred percent! In Polish, I found that even the meagerest place names are declined, an eye-opener for me as a Germanic-language native speaker, where such essentially doesn't exist, either in concept or in fact. In Polish? I have to know whether or not the given town/city/country is a plural (e.g. Kielce, Siedlice, Katowice, India, Niemcy etc..), masculine (Kraków, Gdańsk), feminine (Warszawa) or neuter (Biała Blasko). Even in German or Icelandic, Berlin remains Berlin, Maria Laach, stays the same undeclined way, Reykjavik no change, and so forth!

SzwedwPolsceThreads: 13 Posts: 1,915 Joined: Feb 21, 09	Edited by: SzwedwPolsce Nov 18, 09, 18:27 / #
Lyzko: I have to know whether or not the given town/city/country is a plural (e.g. Kielce, Siedlice, Katowice, India, Niemcy etc..), masculine (Kraków, Gdańsk), feminine (Warszawa) or neuter (Biała Blasko). You also need to know the grammatical case. Warszawa - w Warszawie - do Warszawy Białystok - w Białymstoku - do Białegostoku This looked crazy the first time I saw it. Polish loves to extensively decline everything by gender and case.

Lyzko	Nov 18, 09, 19:57 / #
Amen, brother-:) Once again (if only to reiterate), compared with Polish, even English, contemporary Swedish is almost a song, soooo blessedly simple by comparison!

mafketisThreads: 17 Posts: 1,880 Joined: Mar 31, 08	Nov 18, 09, 20:13 / #
For a native English speaker who knows some German (or vice versa) the mainland Scandinavian German languages (Swedish, Norwegian and Danish) are ridiculously easy, at least in written form. True the pronunciation is very weird (for different reasons in Danish than the other two) which makes speaking and listening hard in the beginning, and learning to write idiomatically would be tough, but learning to read one (or all) of them is a piece o' cake.

Lyzko	Nov 20, 09, 13:52 / #
Absolutely, Mafketis. Except of course for Icelandic, Danish, (standard) Norwegian and Swedish seem to have shuffled off those typically Germanic constraints for foreigners learning a language, such as case endings (maybe in Danish a paultry few vestigial forms), multiple genders and the Latinate word order of German. A Swedish sentence, for instance, reads practically like an English one. Pronoun vagueries, i.e. 'sin' 'sitt' etc.. plus of course new vocabulary notwithstanding. LOL