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Do you think there is something like Warsaw accent ?



BorrkaThreads: 49
Posts: 770
Joined: Apr 25, 08 		  Dec 26, 09, 11:39 /  #
Just reading your comments on Polish language...
Some of you, having already a basic knowledge of it are able to hear differences which are of "non existing" category for native speakers.
Good example of it was different pronunciation of "ch" in Lech and Ruch.
Personally I'm unable to notice any difference at all.

My question is:
Do you think there is something like Warsaw accent ?

But I don't mean all semi rural dialects from Masovia or Czerniakow-type slangs of "lumpenproletariat".
A Google search will give hits concerning Warsaw accent in ... Yiddish and fairy tales about some Northern Warsaw dialect!
esekThreads: 5
Posts: 269
Joined: Jun 3, 08 		  Dec 26, 09, 11:46 /  #
Borrka:
different pronunciation of "ch" in Lech and Ruch.
Personally I'm unable to notice any difference at all.

me neither :D

Borrka:
Do you think there is something like Warsaw accent ?

no i don't think so... especially because so many people moved to Warsaw from different parts of Poland. I met people born in Warsaw and didn't notice anything strange in their accent/behaviour or words they use...
MagdalenaThreads: 5
Posts: 1,388
Joined: Aug 15, 07 		  Dec 26, 09, 13:00 /  #
Borrka:
Good example of it was different pronunciation of "ch" in Lech and Ruch.
Personally I'm unable to notice any difference at all.

Because there isn't any. The only "difference" I can think of is a possibility of retro-voicing the "ch" sound in Lech (as in "Leh") due to the character of the preceding vowel, but such pronunciation would be considered slovenly and substandard.
Nevertheless, the spelling clearly shows that both Lech and Ruch should have an unvoiced "ch".
z_dariusThreads: 22
Posts: 5,091
Joined: Oct 18, 07 		  Dec 26, 09, 14:31 /  #
Let's go back to high school manuals

While it has greatly diminished (mainly because of migration) Warsaw accent is still alive among some Warsawians in and outside the city.

Some typical examples of the dying Warsaw accent are:

- softening of kę/gę into kie/gię (sometimes into kie/gie)
- softening pi(+vowel) into p¶(psi) as in piasek/psiasek

These, along with some other diminishing phonetic and lexicographical features are what created the Warsaw language, or what Warsawians would have called język warsiaski even if in standard Polish we could have called it język warszawski.
BorrkaThreads: 49
Posts: 770
Joined: Apr 25, 08 		  Dec 26, 09, 15:38 /  #
z_darius:
what Warsawians would have called język warsiaski

I don't pretend to have any professional knowledge of Polish dialects but it's not exactly what I mean.
Frankly, it sounds very "plebeian" in modern Polish, all those folksongs from old Czerniakow or Targowek suburbs.
(Performed by Stanislaw Grzesiuk for example.)

But listen to this song from Jan Pietrzak:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MzA8MoVL8SA&feature=PlayList&p=460A408E D2639568&index=11

Warsaw accent or not ?
z_dariusThreads: 22
Posts: 5,091
Joined: Oct 18, 07 		Edited by: z_darius   Dec 26, 09, 17:15 /  #
Borrka:
Frankly, it sounds very "plebeian" in modern Polish, all those folksongs from old Czerniakow or Targowek suburbs.
(Performed by Stanislaw Grzesiuk for example.)

To start with, in linguistics, the term "accent" is technically incorrect if you ask about the difference in the sound "ch" in Ruch and Lech. That has nothing to do with the accent which in both words will be identical since there is only one syllable. Accent, in the context of the initial post, is colloquialism, a plebeian dialect of sorts in itself.

As such the term dialect would be more precise, and there is certainly such a thing as Warsaw dialect. Dialects often tend to sound "plebeian". Take Southern US, NYC, Cockney etc. They are certainly not mainstream and they sound plebeian.

In the song you linked to the accent is standard Polish. There are some faint traces of softening of some consonants, and I heard "Ł" that was on a dark side (although that alone is not a sure sign of the Warsaw dialect). But, the words being lyrics of a song I would hesitate to draw conclusions about the Warsaw dialect based solely on it.
miraThreads: -
Posts: 142
Joined: Jan 28, 09 		  Dec 26, 09, 18:11 /  #
Borrka:
Do you think there is something like Warsaw accent ?

Not a Warsaw one, but an accent typical for people who live in the centre of Poland. I believe that this part of the country doesn't have an accent at all! We can hear people from other parts of Poland pronouncing words in a partciular way, however I don't think it refers to inhabitants of Warsaw nor their neighbours.
ZiemowitThreads: 10
Posts: 1,063
Joined: May 8, 09 		Edited by: Ziemowit   Dec 26, 09, 18:34 /  #
Borrka:
But listen to this song from Jan Pietrzak:
Warsaw accent or not ?

Personally, I think Jan Pietrzak, one of the top cabaret performers in Poland, is stylishing this song to something that might look a song in "Warsaw" accent. But in true fact, he is mixing different characteristics in it (he pronounces the dark "ł" once or twice, he uses once the pre-1939 ending "-em" instead of "-ym" [o życiu złamanem]). The lyrics to the song were written by a renown poet Agnieszka Osiecka (1936-1997).

Information on "gwara warszawska": http://pl.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gwara_warszawska
----------
One of the examples of gwara warszawska was the local name for "Plac Kercelego", that is Kercelak (a famous pre-war market place which doesn't exist today) which my grandfather who learned his profession in Warsaw in the 1930s brought home to his sub-Warsaw village, in the form of Kiercelak, with the characteristic "kie" instead of "ke".
BorrkaThreads: 49
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Joined: Apr 25, 08 		  Dec 26, 09, 19:49 /  #
mira:
Not a Warsaw one, but an accent typical for people who live in the centre of Poland.

Sometimes I've got exactly the same impression while comparing languages spoken in Warsaw and (for example) Lodz. It's a striking similarity.
Ziemowit:
I think Jan Pietrzak, one of the top cabaret performers in Poland, is stylishing this song to something that might look a song in "Warsaw" accent

No doubt about that.
I only try to find something to explain what I'm on about.
I grew up in the Northern part of Warsaw with some remains from the old Marymont still alive.
I guess I can even speak like that
The Wiki link you have posted gives more examples:
Alina Janowska (not Warsaw born but speaking a fair Warsaw accent), Marek Hlasko - just in some of his novels, Kazik Staszewski and all the sudden Muniek Staszczyk from Czestochowa LOL.
JustysiaSThreads: 15
Posts: 2,869
Joined: Oct 14, 07  Gold Member MEMBER  Pictures: 2 		  Dec 26, 09, 20:04 /  #
Good example of it was different pronunciation of "ch" in Lech and Ruch.

'trzy' is pronounced differently by Polish people from the South and North of Poland, the southerners say 'czy'. that's what i find anyway, otherwise i see no difference :/
BorrkaThreads: 49
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Joined: Apr 25, 08 		  Dec 26, 09, 20:12 /  #
JustysiaS

Take it for granted there are huge differences between the North and the South but we are discussing just Warsaw LOL.
LAGirlThreads: 13
Posts: 598
Joined: Apr 11, 08 		  Dec 26, 09, 21:02 /  #
I know alot of Polish people different parts of Poland have different accents. my boyfriend has a almost Russiaaccent because he is from North Eatsern Poland and people fromw arsaw have alittle lighter accent and southern Poland have softer accents.
cinekThreads: 1
Posts: 264
Joined: Nov 16, 07 		  Dec 26, 09, 23:10 /  #
(0:43) A ja, jeżely Pan pozwoly, z przyjemno¶ci±.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VQopO2jF6HU&feature=related

This is a sample of Warsaw accent :-)

Cinek
miraThreads: -
Posts: 142
Joined: Jan 28, 09 		  Dec 27, 09, 23:20 /  #
JustysiaS:
the southerners say 'czy'. that's what i find anyway, otherwise i see no difference :/

Yeah!I've noticed the same!But the worst thing, is that they write as they hear which is terrible when you are to read a text message including "czy".
GaaThreads: 2
Posts: 179
Joined: Oct 26, 09 		  Dec 27, 09, 23:26 /  #
JustysiaS:
'trzy' is pronounced differently by Polish people from the South and North of Poland, the southerners say 'czy'.

lol this is what i was told a few days ago while talking to a girl from Warsaw. she guessed i was from the south because i said "czy" instead of trzy. i didn't know it's spoken differently in different parts of Poland. it's just easier to say czy- czymaj sie,czeba itd
JustysiaSThreads: 15
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Joined: Oct 14, 07  Gold Member MEMBER  Pictures: 2 		  Dec 28, 09, 18:20 /  #
she guessed i was from the south because i said "czy" instead of trzy. i didn't know it's spoken differently in different parts of Poland. it's just easier to say czy- czymaj sie,czeba itd

it is easier to say cz instead of trz, but only the southerners do it the easy way ;). funny that.
miraThreads: -
Posts: 142
Joined: Jan 28, 09 		  Dec 28, 09, 18:52 /  #
JustysiaS:
but only the southerners do it the easy way

Because it's the proper way!
I'm highly allergic to people who can't speak their language well.And it's not only about pronounciation but also using right collocations, let alone writing without mistakes. The worst thing is when I read an article written by somebody who's far from being a "journalist" or hear a person on the radio who can't speak properly. It makes my blood boil.
JustysiaSThreads: 15
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Joined: Oct 14, 07  Gold Member MEMBER  Pictures: 2 		  Dec 28, 09, 23:18 /  #
mira:
JustysiaS:
but only the southerners do it the easy way
Because it's the proper way!

with all due respect, pronouncing trzy as czy is not exactly proper, just easier
z_dariusThreads: 22
Posts: 5,091
Joined: Oct 18, 07 		  Dec 29, 09, 10:50 /  #
JustysiaS:
it is easier to say cz instead of trz, but only the southerners do it the easy way ;). funny that.

So that would put Wielkopolska is in the Southern part of Poland, huh?
miraThreads: -
Posts: 142
Joined: Jan 28, 09 		  Dec 29, 09, 14:47 /  #
JustysiaS:
with all due respect, pronouncing trzy as czy is not exactly proper, just easier

how much effort do you have to put in pronouncing one word?
jonniThreads: 26
Posts: 4,181
Joined: Nov 27, 07 		Edited by: jonni   Dec 29, 09, 15:28 /  #
mira:
The worst thing is when I read an article written by somebody who's far from being a "journalist" or hear a person on the radio who can't speak properly. It makes my blood boil.

I agree. This is becoming almost normal in UK with the horrid, whining South-East accent almost accepted as normal. Sometimes I heard quite nasty sounds on the radio in PL too.

The justification in UK is about broadcast media reflecting how people speak - though most people don't speak Estuary English.

For people with less than perfect hearing, this can be difficult to understand.

For non-natives, trz and cz sound almost similar, but with a bit of practice easy to get right.
JustysiaSThreads: 15
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Joined: Oct 14, 07  Gold Member MEMBER  Pictures: 2 		  Dec 29, 09, 16:31 /  #
mira:
how much effort do you have to put in pronouncing one word?

don't ask me i'm from the north

z_darius:
So that would put Wielkopolska is in the Southern part of Poland, huh?

i said i noticed that southerners do it, if anyone else does than so be it, jeeze
MichalThreads: -
Posts: 2,408
Joined: Feb 27, 07 		Edited by: Michal   Dec 29, 09, 16:49 /  #
Yes, there is a dialect in Warsaw. Do not the Poles in Warsaw say something like lodówkie for a lodówka? I am lucky as I have nothing Warsaw about me at all!!
z_dariusThreads: 22
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Joined: Oct 18, 07 		  Dec 29, 09, 18:27 /  #
mira:
how much effort do you have to put in pronouncing one word?

The issue is not how easy it is to pronounce one word but whether it is easier to pronounce it in one way or another. In the case of "cz-" vs. "trz-" it is easier to pronounce the former since we deal with one phoneme vs. two.
miraThreads: -
Posts: 142
Joined: Jan 28, 09 		  Dec 29, 09, 20:15 /  #
Michal:
Yes, there is a dialect in Warsaw. Do not the Poles in Warsaw say something like lodówkie for a lodówka? I am lucky as I have nothing Warsaw about me at all!!

I suggest you learn some english grammar so that you become more understandable, since, to be honest, I don't know what you're on about in the second sentece.
As for dealing with one phoneme or two, it's hard for me to understand how lazy can people be.
LAGirlThreads: 13
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Joined: Apr 11, 08 		  Dec 29, 09, 20:57 /  #
People from warsaw think they are hot stuff or think they are better then someone else.
WroclawThreads: 77
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Joined: Apr 1, 06 [Moderator]  Pictures: 3 		Edited by: Wroclaw   Dec 29, 09, 21:03 /  #
LAGirl:
People from warsaw think they are hot stuff or think they are better then someone else.

folk from other cities think they think that.

many folk might put their home town above others.
ZiemowitThreads: 10
Posts: 1,063
Joined: May 8, 09 		  Dec 29, 09, 21:38 /  #
LAGirl:
People from warsaw think they are hot stuff or think they are better then someone else.

Don't people from LA think the same? If they don't, they should, they're after all from the City of Angels ...
foyteckThreads: 2
Posts: 1
Joined: Dec 29, 09 		  Dec 30, 09, 11:15 /  #
glyna, lyna, plastelyna...

there is also some kind of habit to say "tak?" at the end of a sentence, that you can think the person is from the capital city
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