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Declension of "zieleń" ?



MoonlightingThreads: 60
Posts: 308
Joined: Apr 28, 07 		  Sep 4, 09, 00:11 /  #
Hello,

Still one of those names where we cannot guess the declension because it looks like non-standard. "zieleń" is a female noun, right ?
What is the declension table ?
Can it be applied to all female nouns ending in "-ń" ?

Thank you very much in advance.
jump_bunnyThreads: 8
Posts: 332
Joined: May 14, 09 		  Sep 4, 09, 00:19 /  #
zieleń - female noun

Nominative: zieleń
Genitive: zieleni
Dative: zieleni
Accusative: zieleń
Instrumental: zielenią
Locative: zieleni
Vocative: zieleń
PioThreads: -
Posts: 17
Joined: Jul 9, 09 		  Sep 4, 09, 00:38 /  #
The vocative case should be zieleni.
Compare radość and radości in the quotation "O radości, iskro bogów".
Besides Jan Tokarski's declension tables say so.
Kamil_plThreads: -
Posts: 69
Joined: Dec 24, 08 		Edited by: Kamil_pl   Sep 5, 09, 17:27 /  #
Pio:
The vocative case should be zieleni.

Not zielenio?
Anyway I remember learning declination names and questions in 3rd grade I think. I was using declination in every sentence, but I didn't even know that it exist, before they made me to learn it in primary school :) My point is that when you are fluent in polish you don't even think, and know which case do you use.
PioThreads: -
Posts: 17
Joined: Jul 9, 09 		  Sep 5, 09, 19:27 /  #
Kamil:
Not zielenio?

Any examples? :)


For feminine nouns it should go:

NomSg -a
VocSg -o
(e.g. książka, książko; dziewczyna, dziewczyno)

NomSg -(no ending, just a root)
VocSg -i/-y
(e.g. zieleń, zieleni; radość, radości; moc, mocy)
Kamil_plThreads: -
Posts: 69
Joined: Dec 24, 08 		  Sep 6, 09, 12:12 /  #
Mayby it should be "zieleni", but normal people would say "zielenio"
PioThreads: -
Posts: 17
Joined: Jul 9, 09 		  Sep 6, 09, 12:59 /  #
Kamil:
Mayby it should be "zieleni", but normal people would say "zielenio"

Another proof of my not being normal :)

(At least I read dictionaries that tell me how to speak Polish without inventing words like "zielenio").
SzwedwPolsceThreads: 13
Posts: 1,915
Joined: Feb 21, 09 		Edited by: SzwedwPolsce   Sep 6, 09, 13:14 /  #
Pio:
(At least I read dictionaries that tell me how to speak Polish without inventing words like "zielenio").

Languages are very dynamic. Grammatical rules exist only because people use them. It takes a long time to change such things (many decades). But if people in general stop following a principle in "the correct book" and make another grammatical construction, this new one will be in the "correct book" sooner or later. Even if some people try to resist it. It's analogous to all languages. What is considered correct now is for sure not the same as it will be in 75 years. And that's one of the beautiful features of linguistics. Speaking people always make the rules, it just takes some time to change the grammar books.
farfaletkaThreads: 1
Posts: 5
Joined: Sep 6, 09 		  Sep 6, 09, 13:21 /  #
haha that reminds me classes in acting:P problem in alphabet
"gie" czy "ge" poznaniacy were against rest and pro "ge"
for me better sounds zielenio ale coz mozna na jezyk i zasady
PioThreads: -
Posts: 17
Joined: Jul 9, 09 		  Sep 6, 09, 13:42 /  #
I perfectly know that "correct books" simply follow what people do - languages change and there is nothing we can do about this.

But the question was "How to decline the word zieleń?", not "How the word zieleń will be declined in 75 years?".
SzwedwPolsceThreads: 13
Posts: 1,915
Joined: Feb 21, 09 		Edited by: SzwedwPolsce   Sep 6, 09, 13:49 /  #
Pio:
But the question was "How to decline the word zieleń?", not "How the word zieleń will be declined in 75 years?".

I was not answering the question. It was a general reflection on the subject.

But regarding the question. Such linguistic differences are often dialectal or generation dependent.
Kamil_plThreads: -
Posts: 69
Joined: Dec 24, 08 		  Sep 6, 09, 20:41 /  #
Pio:
But the question was "How to decline the word zieleń?", not "How the word zieleń will be declined in 75 years?".

Now everybody would say zielenio, not in 75 years. You are polish guy and you would say zieleni? Don't kid me. Or you aren't polish, and you know it only from book?
cinekThreads: 1
Posts: 264
Joined: Nov 16, 07 		  Sep 7, 09, 09:26 /  #
Kamil_pl:
Now everybody would say zielenio

I'd say that now every one would avoid using it at all. This is one of those examples that are used so seldom that most people are not sure what is the correct form.
"Zieleni" is the correct form, but people just dont 'feel' it, because they don't need to use such word in everyday speech. On the other hand, they do use vocative of words like kobieto, dziewczyno, etc. so when they see words like 'zieleń' they're trying to apply the same rules they're used to.
Therefore, monsters like 'zielenio' are born.

Cinek
ZiemowitThreads: 10
Posts: 1,063
Joined: May 8, 09 		  Sep 7, 09, 14:15 /  #
I fully agree with the preceding post of Cinek. There is really no need to use the noun zieleń in the vocative case. If there is such a need, the noun should be declined in the same way as other feminine nouns ending in -ć or -ść are declined, e.g. radość -> radości, dobroć -> dobroci, miłość -> miłości (O miłości ty moja!).

"Zielenio!, koscio!, nowościo!" forms do seem very awkward, though some people may try to use them (lacking the idea of how to form such vocatives properly).
PioThreads: -
Posts: 17
Joined: Jul 9, 09 		  Sep 7, 09, 14:58 /  #
Thank you cinek and Ziemowit. Two more people speaking Polish here :)
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