Dwoje+noun+verb

Kenji75018:

My question was really with DWOJE

Lyzko:

Dwaj mężczyzni idą/szli....
Dwie studentki/Dwóch studentek widzą/widziały....
Dwoje dzieci mają/mieli....

Kenji75018:

Uczę się polskiego od kilku lat...

Derevon:

Be warned, though. Headache and discouragement is guaranteed. ;)

Ziemowit:

As you may have noticed, I always try to put myself in the skin of a non-native speaker when I explain the pecularities of my native Polish language. I would strongly discourage the use of books such as Oscar E. Swan's "Polish Reference Grammar" for learning. They are good for reference, but it's useless to learn declinasions of whatever words from the grammatical tables of such books.

Ziemowit:

The verb is the same as for feminine nouns (rodzaj niemęskoosobowy), but the numeral is as simple as one can imagine [dwa], although different than in the three preceding examples.

Lyzko:

I studied, i.e. learned, Polish while simultaneously dabbling in Russian. At the time, almost twenty years ago, I found Polish a snap but Russian a killer:-) Fast forward twenty years, I'm now starting to learn Albanian, and thought that Polish had the slipperiest of grammar! LOL Well, Polish may have it's numerical nightmares for foreigners, but Albanian for instance, has both definite and indefinite noun endings for both given as well as place names!!!Polish names are conjugated, true enough. But I suppose, every language has its own idiocyncracies:-) Am happy to be of further assistance!

Kenji75018Threads: 7 Posts: 25 Joined: Dec 12, 09	Dec 15, 09, 21:16 / #
Hi, I think but I'm not sure that after the nominative case (biernik) the verb is singular Dwoje studentów pije piwo Dwoje studentów piło piwo Can someone confirm? Thanks for your help.

miraThreads: - Posts: 142 Joined: Jan 28, 09	Dec 16, 09, 00:16 / #
i confirm. it's perfect!:)

DerevonThreads: 12 Posts: 186 Joined: Oct 11, 09	Dec 16, 09, 00:53 / #
Biernik = accusative. Nominative = mianownik. The verb isn't singular because of nominative. It's quite complicated, and I probably haven't fully understood it myself, but I think you could say that if the noun that a number refers to is in the genitive you should normally use the singular form afterwards, and in the past, singular neuter (hence "piło"). Student pije/pił piwo. Dwaj studenci piją/pili piwo. Trzej studenci piją/pili piwo. Czterej studenci piją/pili piwo. Pięciu studentów pije/piło piwo. Since the noun that "dwoje" refers to must be in the genitive (as it is a collective number) there is also singular agreement in this case. At least this is how I've understood things.

Kenji75018Threads: 7 Posts: 25 Joined: Dec 12, 09	Dec 16, 09, 19:11 / #
Hi Derevon Bardzo przepraszam za tę pomiłkę (biernik) Thanks for useful examples. My question was really with DWOJE So...here is my entire question. Nie jestem pewny, że zrozumiałem wszystko. Proszę o pomoc. Is genitive used after nominative, accusative, genitive and instrumental sentences? (male student+female student=dwoje studentów) Nominative: Dwoje studentów pije piwo Accusative: Widzę dwoje studentów, którzy piją piwo Genitive :To piwo jest dla dwojga studentów Instrumental :Rozmawiam z dwojgiem studentów Locative :Myślę o tych dwojgu studentach Dative :Dałem dwojgu studentom kilka rzeczy Z góry dziekuję

ZiemowitThreads: 10 Posts: 1,063 Joined: May 8, 09	Edited by: Ziemowit Dec 16, 09, 20:10 / #
Kenji75018: My question was really with DWOJE You've been touching here one of the most difficult aspects of Polish grammar: numerals. Please try to read, using the search engine, some other threads that deal with Polish numerals in which I (along with other PF members) try to put some light on the problem. As you said, the expression "dwoje studentów" describes two students of which one is male and the other female. If you had two male students, you would get: a) dwaj studenci piją piwo (the subject which is in nominative is followed by the plural verb), b) dwóch studentów pije piwo (the subject which is in genetive is followed by the singular verb). These two sentences mean exactly the same and are equally popular in usage among native speakers. In my view it is most confusing for foreign learners of Polish, so it is good to remember these examples and try to search for them as often as possible in Polish texts or speech. --------------- For a mixed couple: II. Dwoje studentów pije piwo (dwoje is in nominative, studentów is in genetive, the verb is in singular). For a female couple: III. Dwie studentki piją piwo (the subject is in nominative, the verb is in the plural). --------------- Your examples with cases for dwoje studentów are perfect. Congratulations on your knowledge of Polish grammar!

Lyzko	Dec 16, 09, 20:41 / #
Collective nouns continue to pose some of the biggest as well as most naggingly frequent difficulties of Polish. 'Student', 'uczeń', 'gość' and other masculine 'living' nouns, as in English, can refer to either gender. 'Two' is problematic, because what happens, f.ex. if the noun in question is collective neuter, such as 'zwierząt' (animal) or even 'dziecko' (child) which could of course be either sex? I suppose the template for such cases would be: Dwaj mężczyzni idą/szli.... Dwie studentki/Dwóch studentek widzą/widziały.... Dwoje dzieci mają/mieli.... BUT '5' AND UPWARDS: Pięćiu mężczyźń idzie/szło... Sześciu studentek widzie/widziały..... Siedmiu dzieci miało... UGGGGGggggghh!!!!

Kenji75018Threads: 7 Posts: 25 Joined: Dec 12, 09	Dec 16, 09, 20:48 / #
Thank you Ziemowit for your answer. In fact I didn't find what I needed with the search engine. That's why I asked here my question and you answered it.

ZiemowitThreads: 10 Posts: 1,063 Joined: May 8, 09	Dec 16, 09, 23:22 / #
Lyzko: Dwaj mężczyzni idą/szli.... Dwie studentki/Dwóch studentek widzą/widziały.... Dwoje dzieci mają/mieli.... You can't use the "genetive for subject" construction for a "feminine" numeral+noun. So you can only say: Dwie studentki widzą/widziały. But you can use that for a "male" numeral+noun: Dwaj mężczyźni idą/szli [nominative for subject], Dwóch mężczyzn idzie/szło [genetive for subject]. You must use the singular verb for a "mixed" numeral+noun. It is the "genetive for subject" construction as well. "Dwoje dzieci" may be both nominative and genetive. But the verb which is singular suggests we have the genetive here (although some may think it is the nominative). Dwoje dzieci ma/miało A different pattern is used for other-than-human-male masculine nouns: Dwa konie biegną/biegły The verb is the same as for feminine nouns (rodzaj niemęskoosobowy), but the numeral is as simple as one can imagine [dwa], although different than in the three preceding examples. I hope you are still alive ...

DerevonThreads: 12 Posts: 186 Joined: Oct 11, 09	Dec 16, 09, 23:40 / #
Kenji, You could take a look at Oscar E. Swan's Polish Reference Grammar. It covers Polish numerals in great detail. You can find it here: http://polish.slavic.pitt.edu/ Be warned, though. Headache and discouragement is guaranteed. ;)

Kenji75018Threads: 7 Posts: 25 Joined: Dec 12, 09	Dec 17, 09, 12:57 / #
Hi Derevon, Ziemovit and Lyzko Uczę się polskiego od kilku lat. Zacząłem naukę w 2000r ale polski język jeszcze ma tajemnice dla mnie i jestem pewny, że nadal robię błędy. Niestety...ale bardzo mi się podoba ten język.Uczę się również romuńskiego od lutego 2009r. Bardzo wam dziękuję za pomoc. Zrozumiałem dużo rzeczy dzięki Wam ale nie znałem dużo rzeczy o collective numbers. Teraz to jasne. Na pewno będę miał inne pytania w przyszłości, i mam nadzieję, że znajdę pomoc jak dziś. Jeszcze raz dziękuję. :-)

Lyzko	Dec 17, 09, 23:22 / #
Ćwiczenie tworzy mistrza, Kenjiku:-) Poza tym........ koszmary gramatyczne z liczbami kollektywnymi po 'pięć': PIĘCORO dla różnich grupów, n.pr. "Tam jest pięcoro (kilkorgo = samy inny form 'kilka'/'kilku') grupów istot żyjąc w świecie......." Nawet Polacy często zrobją błędy gramatykalne. LOL POWODZENIA A TRZYMAJ SIĘ!

Lyzko	Dec 18, 09, 14:43 / #
Bardzo proszę:-)!!!! Śpi dobrze i uspokuj się.

Kenji75018Threads: 7 Posts: 25 Joined: Dec 12, 09	Dec 19, 09, 03:25 / #
Hi, Ziemovit Thanks for your message. You are right, polish language is really 100% for men. I realised it very quickly when I started learning it. I know I still make mistakes in Polish and certainly in English as well as those languages are not my mother tongue. But I wish I could make some sentences without mistakes. I really like learning Polish and Romanian so I never feel discouraged. No headache either. I like it very much, especially as I understand better and more easily than before. One more time thanks for yours explanations.

Lyzko	Dec 19, 09, 15:04 / #
Romanian shares with Albanian, Bulgarian and the Scandinavian languages, enclitic articles which attach to the end of the noun to form a definite, f.ex. 'student' = student, BUT 'studenti' = the student, the masculine letter 'i-ending' used to indicated 'the', much as in Romanian 'museum' = museum vs. 'museul' = the museum, the '-ul' ending indicating definite 'the museum' etc... Language is no end fascinating, isn't it? Japanese too, is considered an almost impossibly difficult language for us 'gajjin', eh?? :-)

Kenji75018Threads: 7 Posts: 25 Joined: Dec 12, 09	Dec 18, 09, 01:08 / #
Bardzo Ci dziękuję :)

ZiemowitThreads: 10 Posts: 1,063 Joined: May 8, 09	Edited by: Ziemowit Dec 18, 09, 20:39 / #
Kenji75018: Uczę się polskiego od kilku lat... Your achievements are outstanding as you've only made some minor mistakes in your text ... Derevon: Be warned, though. Headache and discouragement is guaranteed. ;) As you may have noticed, I always try to put myself in the skin of a non-native speaker when I explain the pecularities of my native Polish language. I would strongly discourage the use of books such as Oscar E. Swan's "Polish Reference Grammar" for learning. They are good for reference, but it's useless to learn declinasions of whatever words from the grammatical tables of such books. Refering to my post #8, there are at least three different grammatical concepts which are mixed up together in these four or, better say, five patterns illustrating the use of the numeral "two". These are: (a) human male vs. other-than-that gender in the plural, (b) the concept of the genetive in the role of a subject (c) the concept of collective numerals. - Notice that concept (a) is applied to the verb in all patterns [I, IIa, IV] except the ones in which the subject is in genetive raher than in nominative [IIb, III]. - Concept (b) is applied for the two categories of groups: human male groups (as an alternative way of depicting this category), and groups of both sexes. The "genetive-for-subject" enforces the verb to give up its expected plural form and take the form of the third person of the singular instead (dwóch mężczyzn idzie/szło, dwoje dzieci ma/miało). - Concept (c) arises from the overall "philosophy" of the Polish language. Notice that the language categorises objects in the plural on the basis of whether they are male humans or they are something else (all sorts of women included!). This undoubtedly sexist philosophy finds itself in trouble when it meets mixed groups where human males mix with human females. Will the męskoosobowy gender suit? Of course, not. Women are not like us, men. Will the niemęskoosobowy gender do? No, because we, men, are among them, we are not niemęskoosobowi. Perhaps that's why collective numbers appeared to describe mixed groups. I say, if collective numbers had not been invented, they should have been invented (to the dismay of foreign learners of Polish!). And the verb, the verb too, has adapted itself to these sexist theories, so it behaves as if the group of persons of both sexes were one neutral entity altogether (dwoje, troje, pięcioro studentów szło = ono szło = to "coś" szło / jakieś "dziwo" szło). (I hope these explanations will help you better memorise certain principles of Polish thus leaving you with less headache and discouragemet for Christmas!)

DerevonThreads: 12 Posts: 186 Joined: Oct 11, 09	Dec 19, 09, 09:56 / #
Ziemowit: As you may have noticed, I always try to put myself in the skin of a non-native speaker when I explain the pecularities of my native Polish language. I would strongly discourage the use of books such as Oscar E. Swan's "Polish Reference Grammar" for learning. They are good for reference, but it's useless to learn declinasions of whatever words from the grammatical tables of such books. I agree, but when it comes to the intricacies of Polish numerals, I don't know of any other source that covers them in such great detail. Sure, it's mind-boggling to read this chapter no doubt, but with some persistence and patience one will see how the pieces fit together.

Lyzko	Dec 19, 09, 14:37 / #
Kenji and Deveron, I studied, i.e. learned, Polish while simultaneously dabbling in Russian. At the time, almost twenty years ago, I found Polish a snap but Russian a killer:-) Fast forward twenty years, I'm now starting to learn Albanian, and thought that Polish had the slipperiest of grammar! LOL Well, Polish may have it's numerical nightmares for foreigners, but Albanian for instance, has both definite and indefinite noun endings for both given as well as place names!!! Polish names are conjugated, true enough. But I suppose, every language has its own idiocyncracies:-) Am happy to be of further assistance! Do służenia, państwu.

Kenji75018Threads: 7 Posts: 25 Joined: Dec 12, 09	Dec 19, 09, 14:52 / #
Hi Lyzko As for me I learn Romanian. It's very easy in comparison with Polish but there are some strange rules as well in spite of the fact it is a latine language.

SzwedwPolsceThreads: 13 Posts: 1,915 Joined: Feb 21, 09	Edited by: SzwedwPolsce Dec 19, 09, 15:09 / #
Ziemowit: The verb is the same as for feminine nouns (rodzaj niemęskoosobowy), but the numeral is as simple as one can imagine [dwa], although different than in the three preceding examples. Why not dwie? Dwie biedronki idą do kina.

Lyzko	Dec 19, 09, 15:21 / #
Oh, yes! I just noticed that too. 'Dwie' is generic for all feminine plurals, isn't it? )))))))

DerevonThreads: 12 Posts: 186 Joined: Oct 11, 09	Dec 19, 09, 15:29 / #
Lyzko: I studied, i.e. learned, Polish while simultaneously dabbling in Russian. At the time, almost twenty years ago, I found Polish a snap but Russian a killer:-) Fast forward twenty years, I'm now starting to learn Albanian, and thought that Polish had the slipperiest of grammar! LOL Well, Polish may have it's numerical nightmares for foreigners, but Albanian for instance, has both definite and indefinite noun endings for both given as well as place names!!!Polish names are conjugated, true enough. But I suppose, every language has its own idiocyncracies:-) Am happy to be of further assistance! Polish a snap? Yeah right. ;) Russian grammar is significantly easier than Polish in almost every aspect. Definite forms for place names sounds kind of weird, but it's hardly anything that would make a language all that much more difficult. I don't really know anything about Albanian, but of all the languages I know something about, I would rate them like below in terms of grammatical complexity where 1 is as easy as possible and 10 something totally off the charts: English: 2/10 - Can't get much easier than this. No cases (I don't even count genitive), no genders... Swedish: 3/10 - 2 genders, no cases, verbs don't have to agree with anything German: 5/10 - 3 genders, 4 cases, lots of exceptions, but not quite in the same league as Slavic languages Russian: 7.5/10 - 3 genders, 6 cases, lots of inflections Polish: 9/10 - 3 genders, 7 cases, 2 plural forms, even more different kinds and more complex inflections. Honestly I don't know how it could get much harder. I'm sure there are harder languages than Polish, like Navajo, or maybe Basque, but all in all Polish grammar is really among the hardest out there, at least when it comes to major languages.

Lyzko	Dec 19, 09, 15:46 / #
Although I've never much been one for "rating" languages in order of their alleged 'difficulty', (I might have exaggerated about Polish being so simple, by the way LOL) I'd hotly contest English as being one of the, if not the, 'easiest':-) Our orthography/pronunciation correlation's a bleedin' nightmare, and, apart from no 'case endings' any longer, is our prgressive vs. simple tense really that much more transparent than say, German or even Polish??? Jag talar ocksaa svenska, som du vet, och jag tycker att de tre nordiska spraak (utan islandska, forstaass!), svenska, norska och danska, ar mycket enklare an engelskan. Tidsord bojas inte, som du har sagt, och vardagsspraak ar blevet forenkelt annu mera an i engelska, t. ex. 'Hej!' kan anvands i stallet for 'Goddag!', 'God afton!' osv.... Bara tidsformer i forfluten tid (supinum), som 'Jag har stangt dorren.' / 'Dorren ar stangd.'.... ar lite svaara for utlanningar. Back to Polish, I think that the aspect system is even more difficult than the counting system. Then again, I always hated verb conjugations in school, but loved maths, so I may be prejudiced. LOL

DerevonThreads: 12 Posts: 186 Joined: Oct 11, 09	Dec 19, 09, 16:18 / #
The simplicity is the great strength of English. You can learn to say a lot with a minimum of effort. As for progressive vs simple present, I wouldn't say it's not hard at all to know which one to use. Progressive is for ongoing actions, and the simple present for habitual actions. In Polish it's usually rather easy to know what aspect to use, but I can have my doubts sometimes, for example if it's about both completion and habit. Swedish is harder than English in that there are 4 different types of verb conjugations, unpredictable genders, and a bit trickier articles, since they are enclitic particles with a few different patterns. And a few different patterns for pluralforms of nouns. And pronunciation of course, but that's not a grammar issue. I've noticed that it's always the native English speakers who contest that English is easy for some reason. To fully master English is no easy task indeed, but when it comes to reaching a level where you're fully communicative, English is undoubtedly one of the easiest languages. I know there are tonnes of phrasal verbs, and if you look up some words e.g. in dictionary.com you can get a list with a 100 different meanings, but in the end English is a remarkably easy language compared to most others, which is an indication that the language has evolved much farther. ;)

Lyzko	Dec 19, 09, 16:29 / #
If English were as simple as you contend it is, wouldn't it stand to reason more or less (less than more) that foreigners would master our language much better than is usually the case? I'm not talking about bilingual Swedes, Romanians, Spaniards etc.. with one or even two educated US-born parents or who moved to, say, the States or the UK in infancy! Yes, Deveron. We say that English is difficult for the reasons given prior, because far too often, foreigners treat English as though it were a language spoken by Sylvester Stalone, instead as the common legacy of Shakespeare, Dickens, Emily Dickenson, Edna St. Vincent Millay etc... To 'get by' in Globish (global English), noooo prob. To communicate on an educated native-Engloish speaker level??? Not so easy! Jag tror, att for ofta isar svenskarna tycker, att de talar saasom forstaar engelska battre an de gor. Deras engelskkunskaper haaller paa et bestamt punkt och stiger inte langre, unantagan av linguister, som har verkligen last och studerat engelska spraaket hela livet!

Lyzko	Dec 19, 09, 16:46 / #
As Szwedwpolsce and I have already pointed out, parallels between Russian/Polish and Scandinavian languages include the referent 'sin', 'sitt', 'sina' (his/hers/its) with resp. 'swój', 'swoje', 'swoja'. Han tog SIN hat... = On brał SWÓJ kapelusz.... etc.... While their respective usages are hardly identical, there is sufficient similarity to warrant at least some attention, I think:-)

DerevonThreads: 12 Posts: 186 Joined: Oct 11, 09	Dec 19, 09, 16:57 / #
I don't get it why native English speakers somehow get offended if you say English is easy. It's a compliment! ;) The ideal language is as easy as possible, yet with the flexibility and power to express anything you want. To master English at the level of a professor in English literature is of course as good as impossible for most people, but to be honest, almost no one needs that. People generally just need to get by in everyday situations. That's another of the great strengths of English: to deal with basic things you just need basic knowledge, yet the means for higher levels of communication is there for those who need/want it. In Polish you need to know a lot to be able to say even the most basic of things... I can understand that native English speakers are a bit annoyed when some foreigner with terrible grammar and a vocabulary of 200 words says he's fluent and that English is super easy, but that's not really what I was saying... I was merely saying that the grammar is easy. The English orthography is of course very irregular, and the immense vocabulary and richness of phrasals verbs sure makes it difficult language to master, but the simplicity of the grammar itself is a 100% good thing. I'd correct your Swedish here, but I'm afraid we're straying too much off-topic as it is already. ;) If you want, send me your e-mail or msn or skype or whatever and I'd be happy to help you with Swedish any way I can. :)

Lyzko	Dec 19, 09, 17:13 / #
"......honestly, almost noone needs that." Och, naaeh du! Jag ar absolut inte enig med din mening. Hur traakig skulle bli' varje spraak, om man ar belaaten med bara minimum uttryckskraft!!! I couldn't disagree more, but, as you say, we needn't stray from the topic any more than we already have:-) Back to the original question of numeric quantification in Polish, I suppose the rule is: Dwaj = nom. masculine or mixed 'living' HUMAN nouns Dwie = ALL feminine nouns (NEVER genitive!) Dwóch = genitive/acc. masculine.neuter 'living'/'non'-living HUMAN or NON- HUMAN nouns Dwa = nom. masculine and neuter ONLY for either HUMAN or NON-HUMAN living as well as non-living nouns. Apropos e-mail, gladly! Garna det, Deveron: panlech31@yahoo.com Likewise, anytime you'd like me to correct your English (also quite good though), I'd be pleased to. LOL

Lyzko	Dec 19, 09, 17:17 / #
Addendum, I know the 'stavningsfel' I made, e.g. 'et' rather than 'ett' etc.. Doubtless interference from Danish:))))) Incidentally, you seem to have been studying Polish for a while yourself. I'm impressed by your language skills, from a fellow 'linguist' to another lol

Lyzko	Dec 19, 09, 17:31 / #
Oooops! How cou;d I have forgotten ......'dworo' = collective masc./neut./fem. living or non-living human as well as non-human nouns..... WHHHHEEEWWwww!!!