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Iterative and semelfactive verbs


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osiolThreads: 59
Posts: 4,714
Joined: Jul 25, 07 		Edited by: osiol   Mar 25, 09, 01:38 /  #
In Polish, there are perfective and imperfective verbs. Got the hang of it yet?
Well, there are also iterative verbs and semelfactive verbs.

Iterative verbs (don't make me reiterate) denote an action that is repeated (or iterated) many times.

i¶ć - to go (usually meaning on foot)
chodzić - to go, similar to i¶ć, but in an iterative sense

Idę do sklepów - I'm going to the shops. (That is what I am doing).
Chodze do pracy - I go to work. (This happens time and time again).

When talking about going or carrying, there are several ways we can pair-up words. I¶ć and jechać are corresponding verbs for going on foot or by transport. These two words also correspond with nie¶ć and wieĽć, which mean to carry. But we also have iterative verbs for each of these four verbs.

i¶ć > chodzić
nie¶ć > nosić

jechać > jeĽdzić
wieĽć > wozić

pisać - to write
pisywać - to write (iteratively)

On pisze do mnie - He is writing to me
On pisuje swoje wspomnienia - He writes his memoirs. (I'm thinking of Moomin Papa).
Pisywałem do do rodziców co dwa tygodnie - I used to write to my parents every fortnight.

cztać - to read
czytywać - to read (iteratively)

Ona czyta teraz to pismo - She is reading the paper now.
Ona czytuje wszystkie pisma w sklepie - She always reads all the newspapers in the shop.


If you have just read all this, be sure to read any comments anyone else adds beneath because I am bound to have made at least one tiny little mistake somewhere (or the whole lot is actually a big pile of rubbish). I'll say something about semelfactive verbs when I've got my strength back. This has been tiring.
MarekThreads: 4
Posts: 1,120
Joined: Feb 15, 07 		  Mar 25, 09, 13:27 /  #
Looks pretty darn accurate thus far, Osioł. You might also include in "round two"
"być"/"bywać" = to be vs. to frequent, i.e. be at/with regularly:

BYŁEM wczoraj wieczorem u moich rodziców. = I was with my parents yesterday evening

BYWAŁEM każdej niedzieli wieczorem u moich rodziców. = I used to be with my parents/at my parents' house every Sunday evening.
gumishu   Mar 26, 09, 15:54 /  #
the only thing I would add the iterative thing is called frequentative in linguistics

you can look it up in wikipedia for instance
osiolThreads: 59
Posts: 4,714
Joined: Jul 25, 07 		Edited by: osiol   Mar 26, 09, 16:39 /  #
Thanks Gumishu and Marek.

Now it is time for semelfactive verbs. I'd actually like someone else to try to explain these because it seems like a slightly trickier subject. Semelfactive verbs describe something that happens once and once only. I think the infinitives all end in -n±ć, although not all -n±ć verbs are semelfactive.

kopać - to kick or to dig
kopn±ć - to give a kick (semelfactive)

błyszczeć - to shine, to glitter
błysn±ć - to flash (semelfactive)

Other semelfactive verbs I have found (please find me more):
jękn±ć - to groan
krzykn±ć - to cry out

Semelfactive:
Kopnie piłkę - I give the ball a kick
Kopni±ł piłkę - He gave the ball a kick
Kopnij piłkę! - Kick the ball

Not semelfactive:
Kopię piłkę - I am kicking the ball (not just one kick)
Kopał piłkę - He kicked the ball, he kicked the ball (around)
Kop piłkę - Kick the ball (not necessarily just one single kick)

¦wiatło błysnęło - The light flashed.
but
¦wiatło błyszczał - The light shone, the light was shining.

I'm not very good with -±ć / -n±ć verbs, so I could do with a bit of help and a bit more time.
MrBubblesThreads: 13
Posts: 768
Joined: Nov 13, 07 		  Mar 26, 09, 16:44 /  #
osiol:
jękn±ć - to groan
krzykn±ć - to cry out

Are you sure? These semelfactive verbs sound a bit like 'punctive' verbs - where the start and the end of the action occur almost simultaneously and cannot be separated. Kick and flash would fit as punctive but I'm not sure about groan...
gumishu   Mar 26, 09, 17:02 /  #
jęczeć - iterative or prolonged
jękn±ć - one time action (short)

i understand English groan may not have the meaning(flavour) of a one-time action
MarekThreads: 4
Posts: 1,120
Joined: Feb 15, 07 		  Mar 27, 09, 15:49 /  #
Correct, Gumishu! Polish aspects RARELY correlate easily with English 'tenses'-)))!!!
osiolThreads: 59
Posts: 4,714
Joined: Jul 25, 07 		  Mar 29, 09, 00:53 /  #
Can anyone give me any more iterative or semelfactive verbs? So far, I think this thread has only taught me one - one very useful one, but still only one.
gumishu   Mar 29, 09, 11:43 /  #
stukn±ć - stukać (to knock)
machn±ć - machać (to wave (hands etc))
krzykn±ć - krzyczeć (to shout, to cry)
rykn±ć - ryczeć (to moo but not only don't know other English counterparts)
warkn±ć - warczeć (to growl, to snarl (similar to bark innit)
waln±ć - walić (to hit)
pchn±ć - pchać (to push)
tkn±ć or more often dotkn±ć - dotykać (to touch)
połkn±ć - połykać (to swallow)
kucn±ć - kucać (to crouch)
and many many others


there are also verbs that don't have iterative(frequentative) form like:
paln±ć - to hit; to say bullshit
run±ć - to fall down
przycupn±ć - to crouch, to sit down
tchn±ć - rare literary only in compounds - to fill with (hope, spirit)
natchn±ć - to inspire
goln±ć (sobie) - to have a shot (of vodka or similar beverage) (this is slang)
(well there can be created iterative forms but they are not used and look strange to Poles)

there are also verb forms that look like semelfactive (one-time action) with -n±ć ending but actually are not such:
płyn±ć - to swim
frun±ć - to fly (of living creatures (suggests moving of the wings) - planes don't fruwaj±;)
brn±ć - hmm? :)
sun±ć - to push but also to move (as if pushed or as if pushing itself)
garn±ć - to grab,
mokn±ć - to get wet
schn±ć - to dry
chłon±ć - to absorb
płon±ć - to be on fire/in flames, to burn
łakn±ć - to thirst, (to desire)
pragn±ć - to desire, to wish for
puchn±ć - to swell, to get swollen
więdn±ć - to wither
mkn±ć - to speed


perhaps some more later
Zubrowka   Mar 29, 09, 23:50 /  #
What's the exact lexical-semantic difference between "pukać" vs."stukn±ć - stukać" = to knock? Are they, so to speak, true synomyms??

Ah, the wondrous intricacies of Polish:)))

Marku
gumishu   Mar 30, 09, 14:46 /  #
you rather don't do pukanie with a hammer, mostly with a finger (pukanie is say gentler then stukanie) if there is some undefined knocking (not at the door) then it is mostly stukanie
MarekThreads: 4
Posts: 1,120
Joined: Feb 15, 07 		  Mar 30, 09, 15:53 /  #
As per usual, Polish is far more exact than English! The next time some Yankee-Doodle Dunce starts to tell another "dumb Polak" joke, I swear, I'm gonna say what the late great Ted Knight (nee Kasziński) said in the same situation: "Now, tell it to me in Polish!" LOL

If any tongue, at least European, constantly tests the mental agility of the learner, it's got to be Polish)))))
MrBubblesThreads: 13
Posts: 768
Joined: Nov 13, 07 		  Mar 30, 09, 21:14 /  #
Marek:
If any tongue, at least European, constantly tests the mental agility of the learner, it's got to be Polish)))))

Makes up for the relatively puny vocabulary I suppose.
Wodkisban   Mar 30, 09, 21:54 /  #
Puny vocabulary???? (:-

You remind me of a colleague who was learning Turkish and ran across one word with umpteen different uses for English one entry, with the offhanded sigh of the true Brit, "Oh, goshhh, there's that word again!"

Are you somehow equating sameness of vocabulary, i.e. the identical word showing up in multiple contexts, with paultriness of expression??

Don't share your point of view at all, though I can see how one might think so.
Perhaps the very select choice of words in Polish means that those few words used have a depth of significance we native English speakers can only envy:)))))

Marku
BondiThreads: 4
Posts: 148
Joined: Sep 11, 07 		Edited by: Bondi   Apr 20, 09, 18:51 /  #
This is really not that difficult, guys. The only problem that it's pretty 'untranslatable' to English. :)

The conjugation seems pretty much regular, even when it's irregular for the frequentative ("iterative") aspect. And the semelfactive ("punctive") aspect is only a sub-aspect of the perfective, so you'll learn that verb anyway...

If you think these are exceptionally difficult, just imagine how hard it is to learn the plethora of English tenses + their continuous + their perfect + their aspects. You don't wanna know.
You remind me of a colleague who was learning Turkish and ran across one word with umpteen different uses for English one entry, with the offhanded sigh of the true Brit, "Oh, goshhh, there's that word again!"

I bet that "one entry" for the English was "get" or "have"... =)
Polonius3Threads: 963
Posts: 4,546
Joined: Apr 11, 08 		  Apr 25, 09, 13:27 /  #
Ted Knight must have originally been Kaszyński, not Kasziński!
MarekThreads: 4
Posts: 1,120
Joined: Feb 15, 07 		  Apr 25, 09, 17:15 /  #
Probably right, Polonius--:))
HAL9009Threads: 2
Posts: 329
Joined: Mar 13, 07 		  Apr 28, 09, 01:01 /  #
Hey, lots of tasty verbs here....
I love verbs of motion, especially irregular ones
Present tense-
chodzić, i¶ć
chodzę, idę
Past tense-
chodziłem: I went - determinate, but if you are indeterminate it's szedłem: I was in the process of going but hadn't completed the action.
I love this verb, it's one of my most favourite Polish verbies ;)

Thanks for the verbs guys.
Lyzko   Apr 28, 09, 15:57 /  #
....not to mention the verb(s) "to fly"--:)) In Polish apparently, winged creatures take a separate verb from airplane travel; the perfective form "frun±ć" vs. "latać"/"lecić"!!! Even German's not as precise as that. LOL

Marku
gumishuThreads: 13
Posts: 3,627
Joined: Apr 6, 09 Pictures: 1 		  Apr 28, 09, 16:11 /  #
it's not perfective - it's actually impertective

perfective is pofrun±ć, polecieć

fruwanie has much to do with moving wings
Lyzko   Apr 28, 09, 16:28 /  #
Thanks for the correction, gumishu)))!!

Isn't "polecieć" related to the verb for "to recommend", e.g. "polecenie" (recommendation)??? Or am I again imagining roots which don't exist. LOL

Marku
gumishuThreads: 13
Posts: 3,627
Joined: Apr 6, 09 Pictures: 1 		Edited by: gumishu   Apr 28, 09, 16:43 /  #
hmm I actually don't know the origins (etymology) of the verb polecić - to recommend

there is also a simmilar thing zlecić - zlecenie (zlecić komu¶ zadanie - to charge someone with a task; dać komu¶ zlecenie namalowania obrazu - to commission a painting from someone)

I am not sure if these verbs have anything to do with lecieć-latać-polecieć

edit

they could have though

they may all come from zalecić - to advise, to recommend
which may come from zaloty ;)

polecić can also mean to order someone to do something
and polecenie is order, command or instruction


there is a polecony kind of letter - it is supposed to get into the hands of the addressee only who should sing a receipt to confirm that he/she had received it.
legal correspondence is usually send as polecony letters (list polecony)
would you be so kind and give me the name and some facts of any similar things in America/UK?
Lyzko   Apr 28, 09, 17:11 /  #
A nicely thoughtful answer, gumishu!
Many thanks indeed,

Cheers!
Marku/Łyżko
gumishuThreads: 13
Posts: 3,627
Joined: Apr 6, 09 Pictures: 1 		  Apr 28, 09, 18:22 /  #
thank you :)
Lyzko   Apr 29, 09, 23:51 /  #
Don't mention it! (Nye za shto) That's Russian, but right now, I get so tongue-twisted up, I don't know in which language I'm posting-))))))

Marek
gumishuThreads: 13
Posts: 3,627
Joined: Apr 6, 09 Pictures: 1 		  Apr 30, 09, 19:27 /  #
in Polish its nie ma za co in Portuguese da nada ;)
Lyzko   May 1, 09, 16:45 /  #
....in German "keine Ursache!" I'd forgotten the Polish, thanks:))
Vizt   Jul 22, 09, 17:43 /  #
Hey,

I want to refer to the "Pisywałem do rodziców co dwa tygodnie" example. I don't know if someone has pointed it out already, but I am a Polish native and I find it a little awkward. I wouldn't use the frequentative form, as you called it, in it. I would rather use the simple past form "Pisalem do rodzicow co dwa tygodnie". This is because in my opinion "pisywalem" denotes not only the fact of repeating the action, but also its irregularity. By irregularity I mean the fact that it occurs in random and generallly uneven intervals, which to me is its main characteristics.

"Pisywalem" means: I sent a letter one day, then I sent the next one two days later, and then another two at two consecutive days the next week, which does not fit with the adverbial "co dwa tygodnie", which determines the times of sending them precisely. While "pisalem" suggests no temporal variation whatsoever. (Actually it suggests nothing at all...).
Lyzko   Jul 22, 09, 18:00 /  #
You're then saying that, although 'pisywać' might exist in dictionary usage, as with the theoretical 'chadzić' vs. 'chodzić', it's application in standard contemporary Polish is NOT recommended, let alone by foreigners! Am I correct?

Marek P.
Vizt   Jul 22, 09, 20:31 /  #
No. I'm sorry if you understood me so. There is a distinction between chadzać/pisywać and chodzić/pisać, but both these forms are equally common and necessary in Polish. The only difference between them is the fact that the former pair of words refers to repeated activities. I only said that chadzać/pisywać doesn't denote all periodic activities imaginable, but only those that happen at random, arbitrary occasions (i.e. that are dependent solely on their doer's caprice). In other words, this form is used to describe your customs, habits, etc., and not something that happens at fixed moments (like composing a letter to your parents every two weeks because they demanded it from you). :)
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