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Plural nouns in the accusative?

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ArcticPaulThreads: 49 Posts: 245 Joined: Apr 7, 08	Dec 21, 08, 11:42 / #
Warzywo (vegetable) warzywa (vegetables) How do I make the latter word accusative? Any further examples to really help me understand the method would be of great use.

Polonius3Threads: 1,005 Posts: 4,833 Joined: Apr 11, 08	Dec 21, 08, 16:22 / #
Accusative of both singular and plural -o ending neuter nouns are th same as nominative: warzywa warzyw warzywom warzywa warzywami warzywach warzywa

ArcticPaulThreads: 49 Posts: 245 Joined: Apr 7, 08	Dec 23, 08, 12:50 / #
I can't believe I asked that! Of course ACCUSATIVE NEUTER/MALE INANIMATE REMAINS NOMINATIVE

ArcticPaulThreads: 49 Posts: 245 Joined: Apr 7, 08	Jan 16, 09, 14:19 / #
Thread attached on merging: Accusative case Example To jest pani Maria. Czy znasz panią Marię To jest Robert Kowalski (Kowalski is treated as an adjective so is it) Czy znasz Robertego Kowalskiego ??? Other names: Agnieszka Nowak. Jan Nowak. Agnieszką What names equal nouns? Which equal adjectives?

Polonius3Threads: 1,005 Posts: 4,833 Joined: Apr 11, 08	Jan 16, 09, 18:53 / #
Agnieszkę Nowak is accusative but Jana Nowaka. -ski ending names are adjectives, so are those ending in -ny (Konieczny, Posłuszny) or just -Y (Gacy) or -i (Malusi)

pomorzanin	Jan 17, 09, 11:46 / #
ArcticPaul: Czy znasz Roberta Kowalskiego.

ArcticPaulThreads: 49 Posts: 245 Joined: Apr 7, 08	Jan 17, 09, 13:08 / #
So names are treated as nouns (unless they end in -ski, -ny or ,y) ??????????????????????????????? pomorzanin: Agnieszkę Nowak is accusative Why no change to NOWAK in the female name?

osiolThreads: 59 Posts: 4,714 Joined: Jul 25, 07	Jan 17, 09, 13:11 / #
ArcticPaul: Why no change to NOWAK in the female name? I didn't ask it because I don't want to look stupid all the time (just most of the time). However, that doesn't mean I think it's a stupid question. At the moment I think it's a very good question. I may be wrong (as I often am). ArcticPaul: So names are treated as nouns (unless they end in -ski, -ny or ,y) Think of the English surname "Brown". Brown is an adjective, not a noun, unless it is a surname.

mrbubblesThreads: 13 Posts: 768 Joined: Nov 13, 07	Jan 17, 09, 13:26 / #
ArcticPaul: So names are treated as nouns (unless they end in -ski, -ny or ,y) ??????????????????????????????? You're really overcomplicating things. Kowalski is the genitive form of a noun = (I suppose) 'of Kowal' in this case. similar to Von in German, Van in Dutch or Du in French Nouns can act as adjectives

ArcticPaulThreads: 49 Posts: 245 Joined: Apr 7, 08	Jan 18, 09, 10:57 / #
I just want to know how I should treat names. I'm learning how to make adjectives/nouns into instrumental, accusative and genitive (from the nominative). If I knew how to ttreat names I would know how to modify them into the appropriate case. Nothing overly complicated in that? I know a noun can be an adjective.

MrBubblesThreads: 13 Posts: 768 Joined: Nov 13, 07	Jan 18, 09, 12:11 / #
ArcticPaul: I'm learning how to make adjectives/nouns into instrumental, accusative and genitive (from the nominative). If I knew how to ttreat names I would know how to modify them into the appropriate case. Nothing overly complicated in that? No that sounds great. You go for it.

benszymanskiThreads: 9 Posts: 510 Joined: Feb 29, 08	Jan 18, 09, 14:05 / #
mrbubbles: Kowalski is the genitive form of a noun No it's not. Kowalkski is an adjective and it's in the nominative form. Genitive would be Kowalskiego. ArcticPaul: Why no change to NOWAK in the female name? Names are quite complicated. According to the book I have in front of me (Kiedyś wrócisz tu... by Universitas press): Masculine surnames ending in -ski, cki, dzki and female ending in -ska, cka, dzka decline like adjectives. Masculine surnames ending in consonants (including foreign surnames) such as Nowak are treated as masculine nouns. Feminine surnames finishing in a consonant or -o (such as Nowak) do not decline. Both male and female surnames ending in -a decline like female nouns. Male surnames ending in -o decline like those in -a. Female surnames ending in -owa or -ova decline like female adjectives. Those in -ówna like female nouns.

MrBubblesThreads: 13 Posts: 768 Joined: Nov 13, 07	Jan 18, 09, 14:09 / #
benszymanski: No it's not. Kowalkski is an adjective and it's in the nominative form. Genitive would be Kowalskiego But I can say 'Wrocławski rynek'? (='The rynek of Wrocław')?

benszymanskiThreads: 9 Posts: 510 Joined: Feb 29, 08	Jan 18, 09, 14:14 / #
Yes you can say that but they are not using the genitive there. They are just using an adjective - what you have written there is more like "[the] wrocław rynek"

MrBubblesThreads: 13 Posts: 768 Joined: Nov 13, 07	Jan 18, 09, 14:20 / #
Hmm So what would 'the rynek of wroclaw be? Rynek Wroclawa?

benszymanskiThreads: 9 Posts: 510 Joined: Feb 29, 08	Jan 18, 09, 14:22 / #
Yes - that would be the genitive construction

MrBubblesThreads: 13 Posts: 768 Joined: Nov 13, 07	Jan 18, 09, 14:24 / #
But isn't your name 'Ben of Szymon', ie Szymon's son, Ben? That would be genitive. You're not the 'Symonic Ben' no?

benszymanskiThreads: 9 Posts: 510 Joined: Feb 29, 08	Jan 19, 09, 00:41 / #
I don't know whether Szymanski is related to Szymon or not. But that aside you're getting confused because we often use the genitive on the English side when they just use an adjectival construction on the Polish side. That doesn't make the adjective form genitive though.

osiolThreads: 59 Posts: 4,714 Joined: Jul 25, 07	Jan 19, 09, 00:52 / #
The genitive, as many things in Polish seem to the English speaker, is more than just a little odd, although after a while, it starts to make sense with its own peculiar Polish logic. If I ever find anything that seems simple and straightforward in Polish, I check, check and triple check to make sure I haven't missed out something.

ArcticPaulThreads: 49 Posts: 245 Joined: Apr 7, 08	Jan 19, 09, 13:08 / #
Well then, Bubbles, Ben, Donkey, Can you post some examples of CASE changing the meaning of a similar group of words? I notice that many nouns have the same spelling in nominative plural as they do in genitive singular. At the moment I have just started learning genitive so the material I study is simple stuff where adjectives (obviously denoting the genitive case) preceed most nouns. Am I correct in assuming that nominative plural and genitive singular could be confused in certain sentences???

benszymanskiThreads: 9 Posts: 510 Joined: Feb 29, 08	Jan 19, 09, 13:54 / #
ArcticPaul: similar group of words Sorry not sure I follow exactly what you mean..? ArcticPaul: same spelling in nominative plural as they do in genitive singular Yes you are right - that happens sometimes ArcticPaul: could be confused in certain sentences In general no. Normally it is clear from the context which it is. Either the adjectives give it away as you have already mentioned, or a verb will give it away.

ArcticPaulThreads: 49 Posts: 245 Joined: Apr 7, 08	Jan 19, 09, 14:00 / #
benszymanski: ArcticPaul: similar group of words Sorry not sure I follow exactly what you mean..? As above with WROCLAW RYNEK Many of the street names in Krakow were GENITIVE (Nowakego, Kowalskiego....) What is the relevence of this case for this purpose (naming public streets). I'm a little unsure of the overall concept of CASES.

benszymanskiThreads: 9 Posts: 510 Joined: Feb 29, 08	Edited by: benszymanski Jan 19, 09, 14:11 / #
Many streets in Poland are named after famous people or events. Therefore you see streets such as "ulica Nowakego", or "aleja 5 listopada" [read piątego]. They are written in the genitive i.e. street of Nowak [or Nowak's street] as opposed to how we might do it in the UK which is to leave it in the nominative - e.g. Nowak St. It causes me a lot of problems with my sat nav because I try and look up "ul. Putka" but the full name according to my TomTom is "ulica Doktora Putka" and so I can't find it without knowing the fullname :-( edit - spelling

MrBubblesThreads: 13 Posts: 768 Joined: Nov 13, 07	Edited by: MrBubbles Jan 19, 09, 14:14 / #
ArcticPaul: What is the relevence of this case for this purpose I'm guessing a lot of it is really down to convention more than anything. Ulica Pilsuskiego I think could be translated along the lines of Pilsudski's street (genitive / posessive) . Then again, Ulica Katowicka is also genitive and this could be because it signifies 'movement towards Katowice' or the street going to Katowice. Then again I could just be jerking off here Cases -

benszymanskiThreads: 9 Posts: 510 Joined: Feb 29, 08	Jan 19, 09, 14:18 / #
MrBubbles: Then again, Ulica Katowicka is also genitive No, it's nominative. It's just that this is the adjectival form as we've already discussed. But I think you are right in that Ulica Katowicka is not in the genitive because it isn't a street dedicated to Katowice, it's most likely a street heading to Katowice.

benszymanskiThreads: 9 Posts: 510 Joined: Feb 29, 08	Jan 19, 09, 14:21 / #
but you seem to have the right idea about meaning anyway, regardless of the grammatical term for it. That's the main thing I'm sure.... Personally I quite like grammar because I have a mathematical mind and I like knowing the reason for something being the way it is. But then I am a geek, I admit it.

MrBubblesThreads: 13 Posts: 768 Joined: Nov 13, 07	Jan 19, 09, 14:26 / #
benszymanski: Personally I quite like grammar Well I must admit that deep down, I do like grammar but unfortunately grammar doesn't like me. Once I stopped trying to be correct with my endings, I found it a lot easier to squeeze the words out when I needed them. Polish is actually surprisingly redundant when it comes to expression - you have to screw an awful lot up before you become unintelligible.

benszymanskiThreads: 9 Posts: 510 Joined: Feb 29, 08	Jan 19, 09, 14:36 / #
MrBubbles: Polish is actually surprisingly redundant Yes you are totally right. MrBubbles: Once I stopped trying to be correct with my endings Don't worry, they probably just think you are Czech! Today I was asked if I am from Slovakia. Don't know if that is a good thing or bad thing!

MrBubblesThreads: 13 Posts: 768 Joined: Nov 13, 07	Jan 19, 09, 14:39 / #
benszymanski: Don't worry, they probably just think you are Czech! well, I do sometimes introduce myself as Moldavian to give myself a more mysterious, romantic air :)

ArcticPaulThreads: 49 Posts: 245 Joined: Apr 7, 08	Edited by: ArcticPaul Jan 20, 09, 12:17 / #
As for liking grammar... At first I hated it. Completely out of my comfort zone. Now I quite like it and I have a real thirst to learn more. I met an Irish pub owner (Tom, NIC NOWEGO, Krakow Old Town) He'd been in Poland 11 years and I thought he was fluent. He'd speak really fast Polish to staff and customers with great confidence. Then one of the girls behind the bar told me his grammar was 'horrible'. He'd learned parrot fashion phrases, increased his vocab by listening/nominative dictionary entries then did the best he could. He made himself understood but I want to MASTER Polish. Edit for this: You bastard, Bubbles! That PYTHON clip is PERFECT!!!! When Chapman says 'Dative?' and Legionaire Cleese whips his sword out (to encourage him). CLASS.

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