The sound of the Polish 'R'

Polonius3:

Many Americans claim they cannot pronou ce the trilled 'r' in the Polish word ryba, no matter how hard they try. In fact, they are saying it everyday without knowing it.
The way many Americans pronounce 'getting' is exactly as if it had been spelt 'gerying' in Polish.

learningThreads: 20 Posts: 79 Joined: Jan 18, 08	Jan 18, 08, 04:35 / #
How do I make that sound?!?! I try naturally, but it won't come out. It sound like I'm suffering from some disease. I can make the sound like machine gun, but it is far from being a natural sound. Please help with any practices, or diagrams of what my mouth should look like, etc. Dziękuję!

PolsonThreads: 15 Posts: 2,814 Joined: May 9, 07	Jan 18, 08, 04:38 / #
Can you do the Italian "R" ?... There are people that can't do it, but i think with some practice, you should be able to do soon ;) Good luck :) I don't really know how to help you...sorry, but if you have any questions, please ask ;)

learningThreads: 20 Posts: 79 Joined: Jan 18, 08	Jan 18, 08, 04:44 / #
No, in all languages, that 'R' is my weakness... I can get down most Latin accents, but not that 'R'. If I get the rolling R down, I will be able to roll it in all languages that need it. However, in Polish, I believe, there is no 'R' that isn't rolled(?), so I need to get it down.

PolsonThreads: 15 Posts: 2,814 Joined: May 9, 07	Jan 18, 08, 05:33 / #
learning wrote: However, in Polish, I believe, there is no 'R' that isn't rolled(?), so I need to get it down I guess not...but even with a French or German "R" (not rolled), people would understand you well...i guess... ;)

BondiThreads: 4 Posts: 148 Joined: Sep 11, 07	Jan 18, 08, 13:21 / #
...and you won't be able to swear! ;o) (k*rwa)

osiolThreads: 59 Posts: 4,714 Joined: Jul 25, 07	Jan 18, 08, 14:32 / #
I've heard quite a few people attempting the rolled 'r' and failing. I'm not sure how it is that some people seem to be unable to produce this sound. Some attempts have caused injury through excessive laughter. Have you tried sitting somewhere no-one can hear you and just experimenting with the variety of different vocal sounds you can produce? It sounds like a strange idea, but it is one of the techniques I employed whilst attempting to learn Mongolian throat-singing (a kind of oral resonance singing - PM me if you're interested). The tongue should be level at the back and curled upwards towards the tip which will be pointing to somewhere between the front teeth and the apex of the oral chamber. (Like my pseudo-technical term there?) Hold this position, then try. If this doesn't work, try lowering your bottom jaw slightly, perhaps a few other adjustments, vocalising all the while. Make sure you're not restricting the air-flow further back in your mouth. If you still can't manage it, at least anyone overhearing you will have had a good laugh, particularly if they are a speaker of Polish, Spanish, Portuguese, Italian, Icelandic, Scots English, Arabic, blah blah blah.

learningThreads: 20 Posts: 79 Joined: Jan 18, 08	Jan 18, 08, 15:41 / #
Sometimes, when I practice (trying to say the spanish 'RR') like "eh rer reh' and sometimes, when the rolling sound does come out, it sounds unnatural like a machine gun, a broken one at that. Also, the only time that the sound does come out, is when my teeth are ALMOST clenched but not touching. Is that the wrong technique?

osiolThreads: 59 Posts: 4,714 Joined: Jul 25, 07	Jan 18, 08, 17:00 / #
learning wrote: my teeth are ALMOST clenched but not touching. Is that the wrong technique The closer your teeth are together, the further back your tongue has to be. Wouldn't it be so much easier if Polish had a bilabial trill instead. Bilabial trill

learningThreads: 20 Posts: 79 Joined: Jan 18, 08	Jan 18, 08, 18:47 / #
It seems, that your technique of putting the tongue further back definitely works better for me. I can seem to make a roughly 'r' sound, although still unnatural, more easily.

paczkaThreads: 1 Posts: 113 Joined: Dec 28, 07	Jan 19, 08, 18:46 / #
Well if you are really struggling, you can say L instead. If won't sound quite as good, but at least people will understand you. You will sound a bit like if you are burring, or whatever the correct term is... How do you say Romania??? Cant you just pull he R out and use it?

xxx	Feb 14, 08, 08:57 / #
My tongue had to be treated with electricity so I can say that damn R... no joke

YanchaoThreads: - Posts: 3 Joined: Feb 15, 08	Feb 16, 08, 11:51 / #
When pronouncing the Polish "R", should tip of my tongue flap? I follow the tips provided by Osio but I'm not sure if my pronunciation is correct. When I pronounce the R, my uvular is flapping and the sound seems coming from the rear of my mouth, close to my throat. Sounds like German "R". My tongue seems not flapping.

HiroThreads: - Posts: 33 Joined: Feb 15, 08	Feb 16, 08, 15:02 / #
Yanchao wrote: I follow the tips provided by Osio but I'm not sure if my pronunciation is correct. Record it and give us a sample. We will tell you if it's OK or not :)

Arise_St_GeorgeThreads: 15 Posts: 572 Joined: Mar 8, 08	Edited by: Arise_St_George Jul 20, 08, 17:24 / #
Even I can do the rolled tongue! It's not really that hard... Unless your throat is dry...

osiolThreads: 59 Posts: 4,714 Joined: Jul 25, 07	Jan 19, 08, 18:52 / #
paczka wrote: Well if you are really struggling Well, if you ale leally stluggling. Does anyone think I'm bulling? paczka wrote: How do you say Romania??? Lomania?

RJ_cdnThreads: - Posts: 323 Joined: Sep 10, 07	Edited by: RJ_cdn Jan 19, 08, 18:59 / #
osiol wrote: paczka wrote: How do you say Romania??? Lomania? Well, some Polish people can't say "R"either, in their case it sounds more like "Ł" (like in was). So Romania sounds like Łomania (with a tiny bit of R sound to it)

osiolThreads: 59 Posts: 4,714 Joined: Jul 25, 07	Jan 19, 08, 19:06 / #
RJ_cdn wrote: So Romania sounds like Łomania Intewesting. Can it be difficult for some people everywhere? R is a strange letter - the way it varies from language to language. There's the back of the mouth type R - French, Dutch, German, some varieties of Portuguese, possibly Danish (I'm not sure). Formerly it was even found in some dialects of Northeast England. There's the good old rolled R like you find in Polish, other Slavic languages, various Southern European languages, Arabic and so on and so on. Then there's the English R, although in much of Scotland and some parts of England it is rolled, and there is a growing number of people who pronounce the English R without the tongue curled back but with the top front teeth making contact with somewhere behind and below the bottom lip, often mistakenly referred to as a 'W' sound. So if you can't roll it, try any of the above - it's better than nothing!

paczkaThreads: 1 Posts: 113 Joined: Dec 28, 07	Jan 20, 08, 10:11 / #
osiol wrote: Can it be difficult for some people everywhere? As far as I know it depends on one's medical condition, so that some people physycally can't pronounce a certain letter of their native language.

learningThreads: 20 Posts: 79 Joined: Jan 18, 08	Jan 21, 08, 05:54 / #
Ok, I have been able to get the Polish 'R' down a little better. And about 'R'omania... I can make the R as I speak in English. I've never heard 'L'omania before, but... I guess there's always a first time.

polishgirltx	Jan 21, 08, 18:40 / #
learning wrote: The sound of the Polish 'R' you guys be careful with practicing the Polish 'R'... last time i was trying to learn how to pronounce the English 'TH', i ended up on ER.... ..... ..... :P lol

osiolThreads: 59 Posts: 4,714 Joined: Jul 25, 07	Jan 21, 08, 19:06 / #
polishgirltx wrote: you guys be careful with practicing the Polish 'R' rrrrrrrrrrrRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRR-ouch!

WulkanThreads: 1 Posts: 292 Joined: Dec 28, 07	Feb 16, 08, 16:17 / #
learning wrote: Please help with any practices, or diagrams of what my mouth should look like, etc. there was one english girl who had the same problem and after 2 beers in a pub I put my tongue into her mouth and she just started doing it with my little help :)

osiolThreads: 59 Posts: 4,714 Joined: Jul 25, 07	Feb 16, 08, 17:38 / #
Yanchao wrote: my uvular is flapping Why?

Polonius3Threads: 963 Posts: 4,547 Joined: Apr 11, 08	Jul 20, 08, 11:03 / #
Thread attached on merging: Americans and the trilled Polish/Scottish 'r' Many Americans claim they cannot pronou ce the trilled 'r' in the Polish word ryba, no matter how hard they try. In fact, they are saying it everyday without knowing it. The way many Americans pronounce 'getting' is exactly as if it had been spelt 'gerying' in Polish.

osiolThreads: 59 Posts: 4,714 Joined: Jul 25, 07	Edited by: osiol Jul 20, 08, 11:10 / #
Polonius3: The way many Americans pronounce 'getting' is exactly as if it had been spelt 'gerying' in Polish It can be quite close. I had noticed on a certain thread on this forum that the Polish r is frequenly mistaken, especially by Americans who have heard the occasional Polish word spoken by an older family member, as 't' but occasional as 'l'. Polonius3: Scottish I'd say that most Scottish dialects have a similar 'r' to Polish, some of England's dialects (especially West Midlands and parts of the north), maybe some forms of Northern Irish speak have it, and of course, Welsh. Welsh (or Cymraeg) has some of the best 'r' propnunciation in Britain. I also wonder how well the Polish 'r' is pronounced by speakers of languages such as French, Dutch, German and so on, that have the uvular 'r'. Hearing Poles prouncing German words with a trilled 'r' just sounds terrible.

miranda	Jul 20, 08, 11:22 / #
Polonius3: The way many Americans pronounce 'getting' is exactly as if it had been spelt 'gerying' in Po it is called a flap in linguistics in North American English.

SeanusThreads: 22 Posts: 30,160 Joined: Dec 25, 07	Jul 20, 08, 13:02 / #
As a Scot who knows Polish, I'd say that I just need to accentuate the 'r' a little more to get the effect. For example, motor is more than us Scots trill our 'r'. It just depends on the word.

FISZThreads: 31 Posts: 2,607 Joined: Jun 14, 06	Jul 20, 08, 13:38 / #
Polonius3: Many Americans claim they cannot pronou ce the trilled 'r' in the Polish word ryba, no matter how hard they try. In fact, they are saying it everyday without knowing it. The way many Americans pronounce 'getting' is exactly as if it had been spelt 'gerying' in Polish. Most Americans (if they've been anywhere) should know how to roll an r. Thres too miuch Spanish here to not know how to roll.

osiolThreads: 59 Posts: 4,714 Joined: Jul 25, 07	Jul 20, 08, 17:27 / #
I find O easier to roll. It's a better shape for it.

Arise_St_GeorgeThreads: 15 Posts: 572 Joined: Mar 8, 08	Jul 21, 08, 08:44 / #
I've found the majority of non-English people struggle to pronounce the "th." They cannot pronounce the "th" when saying "thirty." Instead they pronounce it as "firty" or in Ireland's case "tirty." Many cannot pronounce "Ibiza" correctly.