Ancient Polish History thread

Crow 155 | 9,025

25 Feb 2009 / #151

Rome was greater, USA is greater, ancient Greece was greater, ancient Persia was greater,

not truth

Great Moravia was greater and Sarmatia Europae and Sarmatia Asiatica and.... and Polish-Lithuanian Comonwelth and Poland under Wladislaw Warnenchyk or Boleslav The Brave when lands of Racowie were also part of Great Poland... and Russians in time of resistance to Mongols in time of great hero Muromec were also greater... and Boii, Scordisc, Dacian and Trachian tribal alliances were also greater then all what was Rome or Greece or Persia or any other foreign construction

So, let us SURRENDER LIFE TO SLAVIA ETERNA, SOUL TO GOD, AND HONOUR TO NOBODY!

Poles are children of Danubian cultural area which definitely forming after two branches of Proto Slavs faced each others on vast territory from Balkan (where European journey of ancients started after Ice Age was finished) to Balaton and Baltic, from South Eastern Europe to the Central, Western and Eastern Europe, Eurasia, Asia and even Near East and Anatolia.

Spot movement of Proto Slavic branch which moved to Europe (Balkan) via Anatolia. Those were first whites on European soil, real representatives of that what would be later known as Western culture,... that was people which initiated craetion of Danubian cultural area. Some time later other branch of Proto Slavs, moving arround Caspian and Black sees via Eurasia coming into realm of first branch and two branches mixing and joining again (after some period of separate movements). First branch was more agricultural and other branch was more nomadic, in general it is Sarmatian and Scythian story.

more details in case with Proto Slavic branch which moved into Europe (Balkan) via Anatolia after Ice Age was finished...

Vinca - Centre of the Neolithic culture of the Danubian region
Belgrade, 1990
Nikola Tasic, Dragoslav Srejovic, Bratislav Stojanovic

Vinca and its Culture

Vinca is the largest and most comprehensively excavated Neolithic settlement in Europe. It was a metropolis with a flourishing culture, at the place where across the valleys of the Bolecica and Danube Rivers a joyful relief of Sumadija meets with the plain of Banat. Between 4500 and 3500 BC it was a major prehistoric settlement. Thus, Vinca is a notion signifying nowadays the peak of Neolithic farming settled culture in Europe.

Antropomorphic figurine from Vinca

Miniature altar from Vinca

Tisza culture vessel from Vinca

Available archaeological material implies that the first colonists of Vinca have had good neighbourly relations both with the communities in the Pannonian basin and southern part of the Balkan Peninsula.

more on specific cultural achievements of Proto Slavic branch that populated Europe (Balkan) via Anatolia / original foundators of Western culture / early Polish ancestors ...

Lepenski Vir

Introduction

donsmaps.com/lepenski.html

panorama

Lepenski Vir as it was 8 000 years ago, when it was a thriving community on a restricted area on the right bank of the Danube River, in the middle of the Djerdap, the Iron Gates Gorge.

Note the fish trap, baskets of fish, the trapezoidal house under construction, the stone hearth, the aurochs and deer, the water birds which have been caught, the spears and bow and arrow, the dog/wolf, the making of a sculpture, and the clothes.

Lepenski Vir is exceptional and distinct not only because of still unrevealed evidence from the cultural history of the Danubian lands but also on account of the limitations inherent in the standard archaeological nomenclature, above all in the classic and generally accepted division of the early prehistory of Europe into Early (Palaeolithic), Middle (Mesolithic) and Late Stone Age (Neolithic).

As will be seen later, the newly revealed culture of Lepenski Vir contains certain features which could equally be appraised as Palaeolithic (art, religion), Mesolithic (economy) or Neolithic (permanent settlement). Looked at collectively, however, they represent a new phase in the early prehistory of the Danube Basin, a distinct stage of culture which emerged over centuries and without which it would not be possible to accept the two most significant advances of the 'Neolithic Revolution' that lay ahead: agriculture and stockbreeding.

as we can see from this quotation... there was coexistance between Vinca and neighbourly cultural areas... some kind of cultural exchange...

trypillia.com/img/museum/settlement/oldeurope-s.gif

compare anciant figurines from territory of today`s Serbia and today`s Ukraine... there is obvious chronological and cultural connection and continuity...

Trypillian Civilization in the prehistory of Europe

5,508 - 2,750 BC

trypillia.com/museum/index.shtml

trypillia.com/img/museum/ppl/p09.jpg]figurine2
trypillia.com/img/museum/sacred/s05.jpg]figurine3
trypillia.com/img/museum/crafts/zoo.jpg]fig 5
trypillia.com/img/museum/ppl/p04-s.jpg]fig 4
trypillia.com/img/museum/ppl/p03.gif]fig 6

speaking of expansion of Danubian culture we must underline next quotation >>>

Danubian I peoples cleared forests and cultivated fertile loess soils from the Balkans to the Low Countries and the Paris Basin.

Danubian culture

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Danubian_culture

Yes, our ancestors simple cleared forests along the river banks in all dirrections after expanded from Balkan, in time when warmer climate provided sustain conditions for movement of population to the more northern and western territories.

Linear Pottery culture

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Linear_Pottery_culture

The Linear Pottery culture is a major archaeological horizon of the European Neolithic, flourishing ca. 5500-4500 BC. The heaviest concentrations are on the middle Danube, the upper and middle Elbe, and the upper and middle Rhine. The culture represents a major impulse if not the advent of agriculture into this part of the world. The pottery after which it was named consists of simple cups, bowls, vases and jugs, without handles, but in a later phase with lugs or pierced lugs, bases and necks. They were obviously designed as kitchen dishes, or for the immediate or local transport of food and liquids.

Map of European Neolithic at the apogee of Danubian expansion, c. 4500-4000 BC

Interesting to be mentioned here is Lusatian culture which was formed in Danubian cultural area in Central European zone...

Lusatian culture - (1300 BC-500 BC)
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lusatian_culture

Numerous Czech (Píć, Niederle, Ćervinka) and Polish (Majewski, Kostrzewski, Kozłowski) authors believed the Lusatians to be Proto-Slavs

Danubian people (Proto Slavs, to say Sarmatians) was bearer of agricultural revolution, from Balkan to the West, North and East of Europe to the Eurasia and even to the Ind River. Anciant stories desciribed in Rg Veda texts speaking exactly about expansion of Sarmatian and Scythian (Proto Slavic) influence. Achievements of ancient Slavs clearted path to the modern understanding of civilization.

A simplified map of the central European cultures, ca 1200 BC. The purple area is the Lusatian culture

The economy was mainly based on arable agriculture, as is attested by numerous storage pits. Wheat (emmer) and six-row barley formed the basic crops, together with millet, rye and oats, peas, broad beans, lentils and gold of pleasure (Camelina sativa). Flax was grown, and remains of domesticated apples, pears and plums have been found. Cattle and pigs were the most important domestic animals, followed by sheep, goats, horses and dogs.

more on expansion of Danubian culture and people...

Corded Ware culture

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Corded_Ware

Approximate extent of the Corded Ware horizon with adjacent 3rd millennium cultures

The Corded Ware people are mostly seen as ancestral to Proto-Balto-Slavic in its eastern regions, and to the Centum dialects (i.e. Proto-Germanic, Proto-Celtic and Proto-Italic) in the western parts.

Then, in one moment, Celtic (nomadic/warlike) culture was formed dirrectly from Danubian (Proto Slavic) cultural area...

Maps of Celtic distribution thru Europe

The green area suggests a possible extent of (proto-Celtic) influence around 1000 BC. The yellow area shows the region of birth of the La Tène style. The orange area indicates an idea of the possible region of Celtic influence around 400 BC.

Celts
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Celt

map8-

The Celts in Europe, past and present

map that clearly show how Celts originates from Danubian cultural area and people. Celts are children of Proto Slavic world or we can simple say that they were Slavs

Expansion of nomadic Proto Slavs (also in general known as Scythians, Celts or Gouls) marked period of ultimate Slavic domination in Europe, Eurasia and Near East. But, those nomadic (in general) Slavs (Proto Slavs) suffered great pressure from the new arrived Semitic people in Europe. Newcomers arrived from Egypt and Arabic lands and clashed with Celts/Gouls (Proto Slavs) in today`s Spain, Italy, Balkan and Anatolia. On far East, darker people pushed Scythians (Sarmatians) far from the banks of Ind River. Ancient Slavic world was in decline and it was just the beggining of troubles. Final retreat of ancient Slavic world becoming absolute fact with formation of ancient Greak, Chartaginian, Roman and Moorish civilizations. With retreat of Proto Slavs (in history registered under different designations- Sarmatians, Scythians, Dacians, Celts, Trachians, Iliryans, Gouls, etc, etc) in fact beggining retreat of original native Western world in cultural, racial and linguistic sense.

That what is still Western still live only in today existing Slavic countries, which are under pressure from same oppresores and from the same reasons as were their ancestors in ancient times.

wieslawa - | 4

27 Feb 2009 / #152

If you are reading anything less than 1655 before christ you will never find your answers about polish history.

ConstantineK 26 | 1,284

27 Feb 2009 / #153

Actually vodka was an Italian invention, originaly it was imported in Russia by merchants from Genoa. Thus neither Russia nor Poland cannot pretend for patent. Though Russians invented how to distillate potato in vodka.

This Sunday I will be in Germany, and now I am trying to choose vodka as present for customers, awfully difficult task.

McCoy 27 | 1,269

27 Feb 2009 / #154

Anyone remembers Grunwald?

ConstantineK 26 | 1,284

27 Feb 2009 / #155

Sure, here in Russia we have alot of veterans who remember this celebrated battle.

Rafal_1981

27 Feb 2009 / #156

Grunwald Anno Domini 2008

Bratwurst Boy 12 | 11,823

27 Feb 2009 / #157

If German reenactors would play "Poland 1939", would Poles be miffed?
Honest question here....

wieslawa - | 4

27 Feb 2009 / #158

Hello Crow,
I notice that you have made reference to the rig-veda manuscripts in your articles #190. This tells me that you are obviously well educated or, just deep

into history, as i am. Have you noticed that one of the dieties in rig-veda is promoted as being the man called Noah who had three sons according the biblical scripts. In my country a man called Walter Bower who lived on an island situated on the Forth river spent his whole life devoted to history and the translation of ancient manuscripts. He was in the service of Rome so as you can imagine he was a holy man. He died in the late 14th century but, left a remarkable work called the SCOTTICRONICON which is based on scriptures that go way back before the Celts. I suggest you read about Noah and his 4th son then see if you can find the connection to Poland and where he says it began for us all. It is a trully fascinating piece of work based on the "CORPUS CRISTI MANUSCRIPT" now held in Oxford University.

ConstantineK 26 | 1,284

27 Feb 2009 / #159

Bible is very odd source of historical knowledge. Those who choose it are v-e-r-y deep into history. Modern alchemists.

wieslawa - | 4

27 Feb 2009 / #160

reading your previous discussions i can understand that you may find the bible an odd source of historical knowledge. But if you read again my statement i have suggested crow read the Scotticronichon which is history and not the bible to which i suggested he only make comparisons. Yes ! it may be odd, but i'm sure crow may find it interesting.

ConstantineK 26 | 1,284

28 Feb 2009 / #161

Under the "Bible" I mean any vain far-fetched attempt to use all these pseudo-sacred tales as true historical facts.

Matyjasz 2 | 1,544

28 Feb 2009 / #162

If German reenactors would play "Poland 1939", would Poles be miffed?
Honest question here....

It depends whether they would win or lose. ;)

Crow 155 | 9,025

28 Feb 2009 / #163

Anyone remembers Grunwald?

sure. The day when slave hunters were stopped

wieslawa

speaking about Celts/Gouls... or to say about those particular nomadic branches of Slavs

Book of Slovenian author >>>

JOURNEY BACK TO THE GARUMNA
Anthony Ambrozic
prah.net/europaveneta/garumna/index.htm

As a direct result of the transcription and translation of forty-two Venetic (Slavic) passages from Gaul (previously erroneously deemed as falling within the Gaulish ambit), a more clearly defined demarcation will benefit both groups. It is to this end that this work is undertaken. ... and ...

The rest of the story is one of petrification in the erosion and disappearance of the Slavic in the onslaught and the langue d'oc aftermath of the Roman juggernaut in Gaul. In the less contentious Alpine area, the dialects survived. But, each in its gerrymandered solitude, ossified in the benign neglect of the Roman, Carolingian, and Habsburg governance.

We live in time of scientific revolution on the field of Slavic/Proto Slavic history. Fascinating facts are to be confirmed.

Some Linguistic Properties of Irish, Compared with Other Languages
irishembassy.jp/home/index.aspx?id=75841

COMPARING POLISH TO CELTIC LANGUAGE

The distinction in Polish between ona jest and ona bywa ('she is' and 'she habitually is' or 'she is in the habit of being'), i.e. between the present and present habitual tenses, corresponds exactly to the Irish tá sí and bíonn sí. This distinction is not found verbally in English, French, German, Spanish or Italian, but is present in other Celtic languages such as Welsh, Breton, Scottish Gaelic, and in other Slavic languages. There are effectively 3 forms of the verb 'to be', for example:

I am Irish: Is Gael mé.
I am tired: Tá tuirse orm (lit. 'is tiredness on me')
I am here every day: Bím anseo gach lá.

Both Slavic languages and Irish have a fondness for palatalisation: the palatal quality of the consonant 'n' in the Polish word nie corresponds to the 'n' of the Irish word níl, 'there is not', and the palatalised initial consonant of the Russian d'ec-yat' (ten) is the same as the initial consonant of the Irish deich. Irish has no verb 'to have', and Russian avoids the use of this verb, e.g.

English: I have a book.
Irish: Tá leabhar agam, lit. 'is book with-me'
Russian: U m'enyá knyíga. 'with me book'.

listen Celtic language in one of its original modern day forms, in Serbian in this example- which is very close to Polish considering that both are Slavic (Sarmatian) languages...

Orthodox Celts / Madam Piano - Galija

osiol 55 | 3,921

12 Mar 2009 / #164

Short Polish - Welsh dictionary

un - jeden / jedno / jedna
dau / dwy - dwa / dwie
tri / tair - trzy
pedwar / pedair - cztery
pump - pięć
chwech - sześć
asyn - osioł
brân - wrona
ci - pies
pysgodyn - ryba
Cymru - Walia
Gwlad Pŵyl - Polska

pronunciation, Welsh - Polish
y = i albo angielski u, jak cut, w północny Walia jak niemiecki ö.
dd = podobne angielski th, jak then
th = podobne angielski th, jak thin
w = ł / u
f = w
ff = f
ll = nic nie ma tak samo po polsku
ch = bardziej szorstki niż polski dźwięk ch
c = k

Slavic languages typically have lots of different word endings for different grammatical cases and so on. Welsh tends to have changes to the initial consonant in a word to perform these functions. I would say that there are differences and similarities between different Indo-European language groups, sometimes where one would expect it, sometimes where it would not be expected so much. There is some commonality between Slavic and the Indo-Iranian group that is not found between Slavic and other related language groups in Europe.

I don't believe Celts in Central Europe or the Balkans settled the British Isles, at least not in any great number. A Celtic or Proto-Celtic form or dialect of IE did spread to Britain from the continent, probably at the time of the expansion of Bell Beaker culture.

It is unknown what languages were spoken in Europe before IE took over, but the closeness in prehistoric culture and modern day genetic markers between Britain and Ireland and Iberia (particularly the north and the Basque country) suggests that maybe that modern day Celtic languages differenciated from the parent language (some form of Indo-European) as a result of language change, possibly from an earlier form of what is now Basque. Slavic languages, maybe as a whole, maybe in part, originated in a similar manner, with a language shift from a language that disappeared long, long ago.

pgtx 29 | 3,146

12 Mar 2009 / #165

Gwlad Pŵyl - Polska

damn...

Crow 155 | 9,025

12 Mar 2009 / #166

I don't believe Celts in Central Europe or the Balkans settled the British Isles,

read this...

Pictish Warrior AD 297-841 By Paul Wagner, Wayne Reynolds

...Picts were merely an earlier Goidelic-speaking Celtic society...

...fathers of the Picts were Sarmatians...

Researching Strong(e)s and Strang(e)s in Britain and Ireland; 2nd Edition (Rootsweb)
BORDER REIVERS DNA STUDY

So Bede describes the arrival of the Picts from Scythia and the Scots from Dal Riada in Northern Ireland establishing the kingdom of Dal Riada in Western Scotland, in the process pushing the Picts further east. The Picts and Scots acted together to invade northen England in 367AD. The Hadrian and the Antonine walls had been built because of these tribes therefore both were active in the Scottish borders in Roman times. It is interesting to note that the Picts were renowned for matrilineal succession and to compare that to .... the fact that the Scythians or Sarmatians were renowned for their different treatment of women compared to those living in Mediterranean countries.

I've also found a map which shows the Roman Empire in A.D. 14 showing provinces added after A.D. 14. Saramatae (land of the Sarmatians?) is shown at this point next to Germania, with the boder appearing to be the river Vistula in what is now Poland. This river and possibly access to the Baltic Sea would allow Bede's reported story of the Picts (the Sarmatians, descendants of Scythians) coming in ships to be plausible at some point well before the Roman invasion of Britain. I think your research mentions something about a Polish connection.

speaking about languages and linguistic/cultural connections over Danubian cultural line, see examples of paralelism between Serbian and Polish ancient folk poetry...

Poljske metamorfoze dveju srpskih narodnih pesama
Topić Miroslav D., Bunjak Petar Ž.

scindeks.nb.rs

POLISH METAMORPHOSIS OF TWO SERBIAN FOLK POEMS

example:

Polish:

O matko, matko! Bodajś nie pożyła,
żeś nas obojga ze światu zgładziła.

Serbian:

(Približno: O majko, majko! Dabogda ne poživela,
zato što si nas oboje na onaj svet oterala).

Now,

ANCIENT SERBIAN EPIC POEM ABOUT POLISH WARLORD WHO TRAVEL TO GEORGIA

There is a fragment from old Serbian epic poem where Poles are mentioned under their Polish name but also under their first original ancient designation- Lechs, on Serbian- `Leđani` (Ledjani) with meaning people from the ice (led = ice), people from the ice land, from frozen land, reffering on people from the North (kin/brotherly tribes from North, from the Serbian Southern/climaticaly warmer perspective). Also Lithuania was considered to be land of Leđan`s. Among Serbians, gusle players, were often bearers of verbal tradition.

Let us remind of this ancient poem....

Leđan grad i Poljaci u srpskoj narodnoj poeziji
Leđan town and Poles in Serbian epic poetry

Podigo se od Leđana kralje
preko Ljeèke i preko Poljaèke,
preko Turske i preno Kaurske,
i otišo kroz zemlju Harapsku,
izišao u zemlju Đurđiju,
zaprosio u kralja đevojku.

Translation from Serbian (my attempt):

From the Leđan`s arose king
across the Northern (frozzen) land, via land of Poles,
via Turkey, across Christian lands
and he went through Arabic land,
appeared in land of Georgia,
to take the hand of king`s daughter

As we can note on old maps, once, Georgia belonged to Sarmatia Asiatica. Historical chronicles remembered live and strong mutual connections between Sarmatia Europae and Sarmatia Asiatica, even tribal alliances. This poem possible represent insight in one event from that time.

Only good God knows in which conditions and circumstances this old Serbian poem was born. In any case, i believe, in time when Slavs were free and aware of their great land, before era of slavery occured.

Of course, poem `suffered` additions and changes (Christianization) throughout ages but still, when we note word `Ledjani` in use we are aware that poem is very old, archaic. To illustrate importance of facts from epic poetry, i would just say that modern day scientific experts compare epic poetry with facts revealed by genetic sceince. In epic poetry, past seams conservated and preserved for future generations.

Reding this particular peom, we can note obvious importance of ruler from the ``Frozzen land`` - Srb. `Ledena zemlja` (today`s Poland) being aware that ancient anonime poet composed song based on old event. Seams that author of poem speaks story about his own ruler, being as a Serbian (Slav from today`s Serbia) aware that warlord travel accros Serbian land (just one part of great realm of that warlord). In fact, he dedicated poem to him. Author knows that Warlord is of Ledjan`s origin (that sit on North) and that his destination was Georgia (`Georgia` is also ancient geographic designation).

Poem maybe originates from time when that what is today`s Poland represented core of Slavic world. Possible when amber started to be exploited and rich trade routes started to flow under supervision of old Slavic warlords (of Sarmatia). Eventualy, that`s how Panonia got name... //Pan`s land// ; Serb... Panova [singular] zemlja/Zemlja Panova [plural] ; Pan = Gospodin = Eng. Ser/Master ; (meaning on Polish- land of masters, land of gentlemans/noblemans). Influence of Polish speaking/cultural area is obvious in Panonia (think of amber road of Pannonia as of ancient `silk road`). But,.... here is what more coming to my mind.... what if English `Ser` represent short form of Sarmatian? Could it be? After all we know that Arthur Pendragon was of Sarmatian origin. Or take Hungarian word `Szerbusz` (sound as `Serbus`), meaning on Eng. `hallo!`. Could it be same influence from time that remembered glory of global Sarmatian name?

Georgia represented part of Sarmatian realm. If we then follow scientific conclusions in case with Polish Sarmatism and in case with Serbian (Balkan and Lusatian) name which is eventualy close to once original universal name for all Slavs- `Sarmatian name`,... in front of us is one amazing and almost forgotten story. Almost

Poland and Serbia, on old Balkan-Baltic (via Balaton) Danubian line >>>

Polish flag

ocila (firesteels) on the archeological foundings of Sarmatian/Scythian symbolism

public.kubsu.ru/~usr02898/eagle.gif

ocila (firesteels) as the Celtic symbol - Celtic cross

ocila (firesteels) on the moneta of the Polish King Mieszko I, over 1000 year old currency

ocila (firesteels) on the modern day Serbian Coat of Arms

what happened to Polish-Serbian territorial land connection over Danubian line >>> It is sad story of destruction and occupation of Great Moravia >>>

one mportant, very important additional comment here in connection with early origin of Polish people

Do you know what it means that first and original Polish tribal/ethnic designation `LEDJANI (or Leđani)` on Serbian reffering on the people from the North (people from ice, people from frozzen land)?

It means that from the ancient time, for the Slavs on the territory of today`s Serbia (Western Balkan), Slavs from the North represent people from frozzen land, Northern people.... if we follow anology, we must be aware that in time when term LEDJANI was found, it wasn`t ethnic designation but it was simple designation for people (of same kind) that abandened Southern and warmer climate and settled (migrated) on the North.... but, people (tribesman) stayed conneceted (along Danubian area) and for the people in old homeland (Western Balkan/Serbia) their kin brothers from the North becomes LEDJANI (people from Ice/North/cold climate)... term LEDJANI was accepted and used from both, from those who stayed on Balkan and from those who migrated to the North... and with time LEDJANI turned to be exact tribal designation arround specific sub-cultural/linguistic area (due to great distance from old core/homeland).... more later, when agriculture was invented and spread term LEDJANI was replaced (in same sub-cultural/linguistic area) with term POLJACI meaning `people dependant on land, agricultural people` on Polish and Serbian.

Epic poetry, ethnology, modern genetic sciance and other scientific branches (climatology included) support exactly this scenarion. Just follow story of Danubian people that slowly migrated from Balkan after Ice Age was finished and you would found that we speak of Proto Slavs, not about some unknown Indo Europeans. When science once fully confirms this fact there would be one crucial question to be answered:

- Did Proto Slavs arrived in Europe, some 18.000 years ago, already formed as unique ethos (with their unique language) or they were formed in Europe/Eurasia as unique ethos after arrival?

i do believe that Proto Slavs were already formed as unique ethos before they arrived in Europe (on Balkan) and in Eurasia. I do believe so because of obviously archaic Slavic languages. Slavic languages (or to say ancient Proto Slavic language) represent real example of one very old, ancient and primordial language.

But, if it is so... if it could be, if it is so that Proto Slavs existed back 18.000 to 20-25.000... years ago... it is simple fascinating

Ice age Europe (18,000 years ago)

in memoriam of old Slavs (Western Slavic branch) that lived in Bavaria

"Slawische Schläfenringe"

iuy

ancient handwork of old Slavs

Archeological lexicon

gfdsd

Bratwurst Boy 12 | 11,823

29 Mar 2009 / #167

ancient handwork of old Slavs

Not only!
From your link:

...Früher wies man diese generell den Slawen zu. Heute weiß man, dass derartige Kopfschmuckringe im frühen Mittelalter weit verbreitet waren, sowohl im alemannischen, fränkischen als auch im slawischen Raum.

Transl.:
"...Earler those were usually allocated to the Slaves. Today we know that such headdress rings were widespread during the early middle ages, as in the allemannian, frankian and slavic areas.

Crow 155 | 9,025

29 Mar 2009 / #168

sure that definitions develop

that way already Prussians (just for example) who were originaly Slavic are today represented as originaly Germans

or take Slavic Brunabor that has become German Brandenburg, or we can talk about Berlin, etc, etc, etc, etc

citation (page 4):

``The Slav tribes of the lands between the Elbe and the Oder were as likely to be in conflict with their Polish/Sliesian/Czech neighbours of the east as with incomers from the west. It was only in the course of twelfth century that these marcherlands were effectively brought under the authority of the German rulers. Only in 1157 did Slav Brunabor become German Brandenburg. In 965, the knez, the prince of Polanie Mieszko I, twarted a troublesome alliance between the Christian Czechs and his pagan, Slav neighbours to the west by his marriage to Dobrava, daughter of Duke Boleslav I of Bohemia.``

Source:

A Concise History of Poland
By Jerzy Lukowski, Hubert Zawadzki

1jola 14 | 1,879

29 Mar 2009 / #169

Sarmatia :)...

Crow 155 | 9,025

30 Mar 2009 / #170

its obvious

Slavs are representatives of old European/Eurasian original native population or we can simple say `Go West, go to Slavija`. Or we should say, using older universal designation for Slavs that was primordial `Go West, go to Sarmatia`.

Many of today existing European (speaking of) nations are just result of collision of old Slavic with newcoming cultural/ethnic/racial/linguistic influences and elements on European soil

osiol 55 | 3,921

30 Mar 2009 / #171

newcoming

Um... how new?

Filios1 8 | 1,336

30 Mar 2009 / #172

1jola

What do 'Gangs of New York' have to do with Polish history?

Crow 155 | 9,025

30 Mar 2009 / #173

Um... how new?

in ancient time, biggest impact on European natives (read Proto Slavs/old Slavs) was made with penetration of newcomers- Egyptians, Arabians and other Semitic peoples on European soil on Mediteranian coast. That`s from where beggan retreat of natives and more later it turned into well known `drang nach osten`. Its ancient process

osiol 55 | 3,921

30 Mar 2009 / #174

So populations of Germanic-speaking lands are somehow newcomers? The Basques came from somewhere else, rather than, as has traditionally been thought, that they are a group of people who have remained not just on the same territory, but also speaking the same language as the first settlers to their corner of Europe?

It seems that within the Pole, there may be some Balt, a bit of German, a bit of Jew even, within the national make-up. Russians are most definitely a mix of Slav, Balt, Finno-Ugrian and in more recent times historically, Tatar. The Balkans in historical times, was home to a variety of ethnicities, or at least, languages.

Crow 155 | 9,025

16 Apr 2009 / #175

Slavic (Obodrite) toponyms in Mecklenburg-Vorpommern (Mecklenburg-Western Pomerania), today`s Germany

Historic monuments in Mecklenburg-Vorpommern
all-in-all.com/english/8032.htm

Mecklenburg-Vorpommern boasts an impressive collection of ancient monuments. They are witness to the settlements of the region since the end of the Ice Age. Those on land and in water include earlier trading posts, settlements, fortifications, burial sites and centres of culture.

Still to be seen today are the especially impressive megalithic graves from the Stone Age, Bronze Age barrows and earthworks.

wolf is very important in Slavic mithology
vuk

Rafal_1981

18 Apr 2009 / #176

Herodotus' Histories, mentioning a tribe of Neuri in the far north, whose men, Herodotus claims, transform themselves into wolves for several days each year. Some researchers have interpreted this through the Slavic folk belief in werewolves, whilst other believe that Herodotus actually referred to ancient Slavic carnival festivals, when groups of young men roamed the villages in masks, sometimes referred to as vucari (wolf-humans).

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Slavic_mythology

Crow 155 | 9,025

2 May 2009 / #177

a trace of ancestors?

GORDIAN KNOT UNBOUND
by Anthony Ambrozic

The march of centuries has not been kind to the toil of the Phrygian stonemasons of ancient Anatolia.

Above all, cast in stone, the passages give us an unadulterated imprint of the Old Early Slavic spoken on the Anatolian plateau 3,200 years ago.

I don't believe Celts in Central Europe or the Balkans settled the British Isles

interesting?

aa1

ADIEU TO BRITTANY
by Anthony Ambrozic

Caesar boasts that he committed the chieftains to the sword and sold all others into slavery. Did the defeat spell the end of the Veneti? Not at all. It may have ended their hegemony in Armorica. It may have forced some to move into the forested interior. It may have forced still others to take to the sea and flee to the British Isles or other parts of unoccupied Gaul. But the people and their language lived on in Armorica and elsewhere for centuries to come.

Who were the Thracians?

The most plausible hypothesis would be then that Thracian was a conservative type of Slavic, still preserving Baltic features and spoken by a peripheral group of Southern Slavs, somehow parallel to the Northern peripheral Balts (following the geolinguistic well-known rule, according to which the center innovates, and the periphery preserves).

Dice 15 | 452

6 Oct 2009 / #178

Merged: Pagan beliefs in ancient Poland

I've been reading a little bit lately about ancient believes in pre-Christian Europe, it's really fascinating stuff and to be honest some of those beliefs often make more sense then the dogma of Christianity. I'm talking here Celtic believes, Viking believes etc.

Unfortunately I can't find much info about the ancient Pagan believes in pre-Christian Poland. I mean, usually there is some mention of pre- Christian beliefs in the Slavic mythology and such, but not much and not in too many details.

What kind of a Pagan religion and mythology did ancient Poles use to believe in? And are there any books specifically on this subject?

plk123 8 | 4,142

6 Oct 2009 / #179

pagan ~= nature based

circe-argent.com/slavic_paganism.htm
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Slavic_mythology
pandora.cii.wwu.edu/vajda/russ110/handout_p1_paganism.htm

Crow 155 | 9,025

26 Oct 2009 / #180

traces of their origin could be traced back in the time after ice age was finished... practically, we can say that they originates from the beggining of time... in time immemorial. Children of Danubian world, old people of old civilization that was born on the banks of the Danube river, on Balkan. There started their European journey where they developed agriculture and all kind of practical every day skills. They lived in land of free, in land of green.

They spread all over the Balkan, to the south-eastern and eastern Europe, they reached central and northern Europe, even European west. From ancient time their name was known from Europe to the Near East, Eurasia and Asia. Ultimately, they were masters of warcraft >>>

SARMATS

those are my ancestors and their language and heritage still live only in Slavic world. Yes, Sarmats (Sarmatians, Scythians) or Slavs, its all the same if you want to understand what is true and original, native and autonomous WEST.