LIVE FORUMS / ARCHIVES / 2009
PolishForums - ARCHIVE Witamy in PolishForums Archive :
Archives / 2009 / History of Poland / posts: 155

Col.Jozef Swiatlo-Secret agent, torturer, CIA-collaborator to be tried?


page 5 of 6:  « Prev  1  2  3  4  5  6  Next »

1jolaThreads: 33
Posts: 2,737
Joined: Sep 23, 08
  Feb 14, 09, 17:36 /  #
sjam:
Pensions taken away.....and what about their liberty? Has PiS taken this away? Are they going to bring these people in Warsaw to trial?

In case you haven't noticed PiS was at the helm long enough. Are you thick; there hasn't been a right wing Parliment yet. Ex-marxists and today's new left are not interested in prosecuting their predecesors' crimes. There is the old guard throughout the system since they only shared power with the new left. You have seen how deathly affraid they all are of lustration.
Like I said there hasn't been any real transfer of power. Now, why people voted in communists again is a sadder question.

I told you before, look up gen.Fieldorf daughters' struggle since 1990. I think Salinist prosecutor Witold Gatner was practising law in Warsaw till last year!

sjam:
Is it true that she just didn't turn up to stand trial?

It is true. She died before the trial started. She most likely used the fake doctor note to not to show up to hearings and thus delaying the process.

sjam:
How many of those listed on IPN website are being sent for trial? How many are still alive in Poland or are they all living in Israel?

I'm not your secretary, so do your own research and post it.

sjamThreads: 5
Posts: 1,016
Joined: Jan 13, 09
Edited by: sjam   Feb 14, 09, 18:37 /  #
1jola:
In case you haven't noticed PiS was at the helm long enough. Are you thick; there hasn't been a right wing Parliment yet. Ex-marxists and today's new left are not interested in prosecuting their predecesors' crimes.

Now I may well be thick but even I can see this statement of yours doesn't square with Poland's three time failed extradition attempts (lasting over several years or more) for Helena Wolińska-Brus but no correspondingly determined effort to bring anyone else involved to trial for same crimes against Fieldorf notwithstanding those that are in living Israel—whom you say would never give up their criminals? It would be fair to say that even Poland doesn't give up its own criminals living openly in Warsaw and until recently still living on good pensions... what a joke!

1jola:
sjam:
How many of those listed on IPN website are being sent for trial? How many are still alive in Poland or are they all living in Israel?

I'm not your secretary, so do your own research and post it.

I am so glad you are not my secretary because you have no answers to even the simplest question of your opinion on how many perpetrators in the Pilecki state murder (listed by the IPN as being involved) you think are Polish Jews? Maybe not enough for you to make a point ;-))
sjamThreads: 5
Posts: 1,016
Joined: Jan 13, 09
Edited by: sjam   Feb 14, 09, 19:00 /  #
sjam:
there hasn't been a right wing Parliment yet

Isn't PiS center-rightist conservative party or maybe you have in mind for Poland a resurgent anti-semitic, anti-communist, anti-capitalist, fascistic ONR?

But wait a minute, I remember you chose to escape Poland for a better life in the free 'west' so Polish politics are not relevant to you :-)))
1jolaThreads: 33
Posts: 2,737
Joined: Sep 23, 08
Edited by: 1jola   Feb 14, 09, 19:58 /  #
sjam:
It would be fair to say that even Poland doesn't give up its own criminals living openly in Warsaw and until recently still living on good pensions... what a joke!

Maybe not a joke, but shameful. Why do you think it is so?

sjam:
I am so glad you are not my secretary because you have no answers to even the simplest question of your opinion on how many perpetrators in the Pilecki state murder (listed by the IPN as being involved) you think are Polish Jews?

I have no idea. You seem obssessed with Jews, though.

sjam:
sjam: there hasn't been a right wing Parliment yet

Isn't PiS center-rightist conservative party

When had Poland a right wing government in 1989-2009? When you answer that question, you will stop asking stupid questions why haven't they prosecuted communist crimes.

sjam:
or maybe you have in mind for Poland a resurgent anti-semitic, anti-communist...

Anti-semitic, no, anti-communist, very much so.

Again, you need to get over the Jew thing. Maybe some warm milk will do.

Well, then, why were they going only after Wolińska?
lesserThreads: 7
Posts: 2,014
Joined: Oct 19, 07
Edited by: lesser   Feb 14, 09, 21:18 /  #
sjam:
Isn't PiS center-rightist conservative party or maybe you have in mind for Poland a resurgent anti-semitic, anti-communist, anti-capitalist, fascistic ONR?

Sorry but you have little idea either about political science or Polish politics. President Kaczynski openly admit to be leftist, recently nominated Ryszard Bugaj to be his economic advisor. Whole PiS have roots in pre-WWII socialists movement, Pilsudski's 'national fraction' to be exact. Some call them to be 'pious socialists' but even this view is not correct. The first party of Kaczynski brothers (PC) was not known from its 'Christian character'. They pretend to be Catholics only for political purpose, to receive support from Torun. Semantic chaos in political terminology in Poland causing that centre-left party is considered by many to be rightist.

The fact that on the right of the PiS you see ONR, this is just another 'flower'.
SeanusThreads: 22
Posts: 30,158
Joined: Dec 25, 07
  Feb 14, 09, 21:54 /  #
Well, lesser, that was a bit harsh. You assign positions on the political spectrum too arbitrarily. Many see PiS as centre right as sjam said. They were ultra conservative, most commonly identified with right wingers.
lesserThreads: 7
Posts: 2,014
Joined: Oct 19, 07
Edited by: lesser   Feb 14, 09, 22:41 /  #
Seanus:
Well, lesser, that was a bit harsh. You assign positions on the political spectrum too arbitrarily. Many see PiS as centre right as sjam said. They were ultra conservative, most commonly identified with right wingers.

I have write myself that many think that they are rightists, because of semantic chaos in political terminology in Poland. After 1989 many consider all those who were known from opposition to communist regime to be right-wing. While this is undeniable fact that some of them were leftists. I spent a lot of my free time on studying political science, history and observations of Polish and international politics. Thus my knowledge of the subject is superior to those 'many' that never bothered to learn.

Beside of that I don't use such term like ultra-conservatism, that is just how some non-conservatives refer to conservatives. The same about leftist who call people who abide to teaching of the CC to be ultra-Catholics. They reserve the term "Catholic" only to those who "know better" how the Pope should run the church. This is false rhetoric.

While PiS for example abide to the teaching of the CC only if they see it profitable from the perspective of popularity rankings. They are not obsessed against the church like many leftist but also they wont stand in defence if such action would be unpopular. The same could be said about PO with all due distance.
SeanusThreads: 22
Posts: 30,158
Joined: Dec 25, 07
  Feb 14, 09, 23:08 /  #
We witnessed the same in Britain. Labour were supposed to be a left-wing party. Look at what Tony Blair did there. He shifted across and slapped a new label on, New Labour.

I studied Critical Legal Studies more (CLS) which looks at the synallagmatic/symbiotic nature of law and politics. You know more than I do on this issue in Polish politics.

Ultra-conservative is code for virtuous and overly righteous. I'm not too quick to call them devout Catholics, more just moralistic and overly paternal at times.
sjamThreads: 5
Posts: 1,016
Joined: Jan 13, 09
  Feb 15, 09, 10:26 /  #
1jola:
sjam:
I am so glad you are not my secretary because you have no answers to even the simplest question of your opinion on how many perpetrators in the Pilecki state murder (listed by the IPN as being involved) you think are Polish Jews?

I have no idea. You seem obssessed with Jews, though.




It is your assertion that all of those involved in state murder of Fieldorf were 'Jews' and that the polish security apparatus was controlled by Polish Jews yet 63% of MBP cadre were not Polish Jews. You have no answers as to why those accused of Feildorf's murder have never been brought to trial though they live(d) openly in Poland whereas years were spent trying to extradite just one person from UK. You imply that because they were 'Jews' (your term not mine) they were not touched? So what about those non-Jewish Poles that were invoved in Fieldorf case - you imply that there weren't any! Which stretches credibilty to the nth degree, even for soemone as thick as me.

Based on your assertion that the communist security services were controlled by Polish Jews and claimed knowledge that all perpetartors in the Fieldorf case were Polish Jews; I asked you how many Polish Jews you think were implicated in the other widely known state murder; that of Pilecki. Given that the IPN list the names of those they think were responsible I would have thought you might have an opinion can't you tell from their names who is a Polish Jew or not? Or do you think they have all, like Jozef Swiatlo, changed their names to avoid being recognised as Polish Jews?

I am not obsessed with 'Jews' Polish or otherwise but when some writes

sjam:
1jola:
For starters, Swiatło wasn't a Pole, he was a Jew.

1jola:
[quote=1jola]
the worst of the Holocaust "survivors" we had. Oh, BTW, 37% of MBP cadre was Jewish.

then these crass statements deserves response.

I do enjoy warm milk ;-)

lesser:
Sorry but you have little idea either about political science or Polish politics.

I don't profess to have any interest in either political science or politics. Hence my question:

sjam:
Isn't PiS center-rightist conservative party

Now if you are saying that PiS party actually a left-wing party so they would not want to prosecute any former communists for the state murders of Fieldorf and Pilecki even though they are well known and some still living in Poland that would be understandable. But which party was in government during the years of extradition proceedings against Helena Wolińska? Presumably if PiS is left-wing it does not support lustration and supports the so-called 'thick line'?
1jolaThreads: 33
Posts: 2,737
Joined: Sep 23, 08
Edited by: 1jola   Feb 15, 09, 14:05 /  #
Oh, dear. Just as I thought the warm milk would help.

sjam:
You have no answers as to why those accused of Feildorf's murder have never been brought to trial though they live(d) openly in Poland whereas years were spent trying to extradite just one person from UK.

You are not listening. They are reluctant to prosecute anyone. The question who is Jewish has nothing to do with it. There hasn't been a government yet that is willing to bring justice to communist crimes.

sjam:
You imply that because they were 'Jews' (your term not mine) they were not touched?

This you'll have to show me.

sjam:
So what about those non-Jewish Poles that were invoved in Fieldorf case - you imply that there weren't any! Which stretches credibilty to the nth degree, even for soemone as thick as me.

Stop abusing yourself. List the names and we will have a look.

sjam:
sjam: 1jola:
For starters, Swiatło wasn't a Pole, he was a Jew.


1jola: [quote=1jola]
the worst of the Holocaust "survivors" we had. Oh, BTW, 37% of MBP cadre was Jewish.

then these crass statements deserves response.

These are not crass statements, they are facts. But wait, let's just call them Poles, what the heck. Here are some other famous Poles:

Menachem Begin - the sixth PM of Israel was Polish.

In fact, the first PM of Isreal was Polish - David ben Gurion.

Another Prime Minister of Isreal - Yitzak Rabin- a Polak.

The President and PM of Israel - Shimon Peres - Polish.

My favorite Polak is Abe Foxman of the ADL, a nice boy from Baranowicz, fighting anti-polonism. Did you know that "Foxman was baptized into the Roman Catholic Church as Henryk Stanislas Kurpi, and raised as a Catholic..."

I hope you have a sense of humor.


sjam:
But which party was in government during the years of extradition proceedings against Helena Wolińska?

SLD-the communists, for the most part, with the elected communist president mgr.Kwaśniewski. Now, I don't think that Kwas was prosecuting poor Wolińska because she was Jewish. Ater all

"[Conversation with Aleksander Kwaśniewski, Chairman of the European Council for Tolerance]

Media have informed about the establishment by the European Jewish Congress of the European Council for Tolerance, which you are heading. What will the Council deal with?

Under the new and improved communistst the extradition was sought. Why they chose to ignore others, I don't know. I can only suspect that they all worked toghether at one point or another, but even if not, they would like to let the dogs lie.



I hope you are not saying in all this that she deserved to be left alone.
sjamThreads: 5
Posts: 1,016
Joined: Jan 13, 09
Edited by: sjam   Feb 15, 09, 14:58 /  #
1jola:
But wait, let's just call them Poles, what the heck. Here are some other famous Poles

Yes at last! Lets call them Polish if Poland is where they were born.

Around 120,000 Poles stayed in UK after WWII and I would consider them Polish. Some of them reaching high positions in British establishment.

1jola:
SLD-the communists, for the most part,

1jola:
Under the new and improved communistst the extradition was sought. Why they chose to ignore others, I don't know. I can only suspect that they all worked toghether at one point or another,

This must be the other part?

Would these be the Polish Jews you said were in control of the communist state... they all worked together now old and new ... that would be it... another joke ;-)

1jola:
I hope you are not saying in all this that she deserved to be left alone.

No.
I am saying all involved should be have been brought to trial. I am also questioning why only Helena Wolińska's extradition seems to have been so vigorously pursued yet no else seems to have been? How many extradition warrants were made to Israel? Why were there no trials in absentia this has happened in other serious crime cases around the world and could have happened to Helena Wolińska and the others you say escaped justice in Israel? At least this would have been justice of sorts.

And where are the prosecutions of those listed by IPN as being involved in Pilecki's state murder? Obviously the majority in Poland could be that bothered about it or it would have happened.

BTW. That warm milk did work... my bones feel stronger and it is so relaxing after a hard days entertainment reading your posts :-)))
1jolaThreads: 33
Posts: 2,737
Joined: Sep 23, 08
  Feb 15, 09, 18:55 /  #
sjam:
1jola: But wait, let's just call them Poles, what the heck. Here are some other famous Poles

Yes at last! Lets call them Polish if Poland is where they were born.

It's not important what we call them; it's important what they call themselves. Do you think Abe Foxman calls himself a Catholic Pole?[big smile]


sjam:
Would these be the Polish Jews you said were in control of the communist state

I believe I said the Soviets were.

sjam:
I am saying all involved should be have been brought to trial.

And I am saying what?

sjam:
I am also questioning why only Helena Wolińska's extradition seems to have been so vigorously pursued yet no else seems to have been?

Maybe you have an idea why and would like to share it. I'm listening.

sjam:
How many extradition warrants were made to Israel?

Have you ever heard of anyone extradited from Israel?
sjamThreads: 5
Posts: 1,016
Joined: Jan 13, 09
  Feb 15, 09, 21:05 /  #
1jola:
sjam:
Would these be the Polish Jews you said were in control of the communist state

I believe I said the Soviets were.

Your short term memory loss I guess :-))

1jola:
Peter_H:
Like many Poles, you believe that Jews had a leading role in the post-war security apparatus because that's accepted wisdom. Hopefully, when you've had a cold, hard look at the figures above, you might change your mind.

Officer corps in any army also make a small percentage of the overall numbers, yet they make decisions - they play the leading role.


1jolaThreads: 33
Posts: 2,737
Joined: Sep 23, 08
  Feb 15, 09, 21:37 /  #
I'm still listening for your ideas on the subject. You don't deserve a biscuit yet.
HarryThreads: 62
Posts: 8,508
Joined: May 2, 07
[Suspended]
  Feb 16, 09, 09:34 /  #
1jola:
Harry, it turns out they are all Jewish.

"In a more complicated case, Poland’s authorities have been unable to prosecute several persons implicated in the judicial murder on trump-up charges of killing Jews, Communists, and Soviet POWs of General August Emil Fieldorf (“Nil”) of the Home Army. The persons involved in the sordid affair include Kazimierz Górski, Alicja Graff, and Witold Gatner, who reside in Poland, and Stefan Michnik and Fajga Mindla Danielak aka Helena Wolińska, who live abroad. A few participants in the murder lived unmolested until their recent deaths in independent Poland after 1989 (Igor Andrejew and Maria Zand-Górowska) or abroad (Beniami n Wajsblech, Emil Mertz, and Gustaw Auscaler).[Israel]

You claim that they are all Jewish but your quote says nothing about them all being Jewish. It just says that the ones with the Jewish sounding names live/lived abroad and the ones with the Catholic sounding names live/lived in Poland.


1jola:
Now, Harry's argument has now turned on him. No wonder he is not here to defend his nonsense.

No, I just have this thing called a life, so I don’t post here seven days a week. You should try getting one.


1jola:
sjam: 1jola: But wait, let's just call them Poles, what the heck. Here are some other famous Poles

Yes at last! Lets call them Polish if Poland is where they were born.

It's not important what we call them; it's important what they call themselves.

We should call people what they call themselves? Good idea. Now we have agreed that no Polish Jews were involved with the Party or the security services post-WWII. Religion was not compatible with Stalinism so no member of the Party or the security services would have called themselves ‘religious’. Not unless they were desperate to get caught up in the next purge anyway.

Perhaps you would like to rethink your argument.
sjamThreads: 5
Posts: 1,016
Joined: Jan 13, 09
Edited by: sjam   Feb 16, 09, 10:52 /  #
Marek Jan Chodakiewicz: The Dialectics of Pain: The Interrogation Methods of the Communist Secret Police in Poland, 1944-1955. Glaukopis, vol. 2/3 (2004-2005).

In the case of torture of General Franciszek Skibiński of the Free Polish Armed Forces in the West, the authorities were “unable” to find a suspect, Colonel Władysław Kochan, for several months, even though he resides in a building literarily next door to the court house and his address is listed. Kochan refuses to testify against the main accused in the case, Colonel Henryk O., and, instead, blames the practice of torture on his own Soviet advisor, Colonel Anton Skulbashevskii, who left Poland for the USSR in 1956. See Jan Ordyński, “Naciskał aż przesłuchiwany chciał umżeć,” Rzeczpospolita, 15 October 2003; Jan Ordyński, “Wiedział, że bito więźniów,” Rzeczpospolita, 12 February 2004.

From the same source as the above and 1jola's quote from that same source:
Harry:
1jola:
Harry, it turns out they are all Jewish.

"In a more complicated case, Poland’s authorities have been unable to prosecute several persons implicated in the judicial murder on trump-up charges of killing Jews, Communists, and Soviet POWs of General August Emil Fieldorf (“Nil”) of the Home Army. The persons involved in the sordid affair include Kazimierz Górski, Alicja Graff, and Witold Gatner, who reside in Poland, and Stefan Michnik and Fajga Mindla Danielak aka Helena Wolińska, who live abroad. A few participants in the murder lived unmolested until their recent deaths in independent Poland after 1989 (Igor Andrejew and Maria Zand-Górowska) or abroad (Beniami n Wajsblech, Emil Mertz, and Gustaw Auscaler).[Israel]

We can read:

As for the perpetrators, although the Soviets led the way,55 they found
many eager Polish collaborators. Although no thorough search has been
undertaken in the secret police personal files nationwide, the evidence
accumulated here suggests that most of the functionaries of the Communist
terror apparatus were ethnic Poles of lower class origin. The witnesses
mention but a few Jewish Communist perpetrators.

Harry:
Perhaps you would like to rethink your argument.

No thinking required—seems it's all in 1jola's selective copy and pasting :-)

Now where's that warm milk and biscuits... :-)))
1jolaThreads: 33
Posts: 2,737
Joined: Sep 23, 08
Edited by: 1jola   Feb 16, 09, 12:58 /  #
sjam:
We can read:


As for the perpetrators, although the Soviets led the way,55 they found
many eager Polish collaborators. Although no thorough search has been
undertaken in the secret police personal files nationwide, the evidence
accumulated here suggests that most of the functionaries of the Communist
terror apparatus were ethnic Poles of lower class origin. The witnesses
mention but a few Jewish Communist perpetrators.


Harry: Perhaps you would like to rethink your argument.

No thinking required—seems it's all in 1jola's selective copy and pasting :-)

I'm out milk, but here is a biscuit,

Since you are quoting from the same article I quoted from, you know that I have read the article. Here is the article again:

As for the perpetrators, although the Soviets led the way,[55] they found many eager Polish collaborators. Although no thorough search has been undertaken in the secret police personal files nationwide, the evidence accumulated here suggests that most of the functionaries of the Communist terror apparatus were ethnic Poles of lower class origin. The witnesses mention but a few Jewish Communist perpetrators.[56]



The little 56 means a note. You have to scroll down to read it. It says:

[56] This seems to have been the case especially in the countryside but to a lesser extent on the central command level. See Chapter Six, “The Local Elite under Soviet Rule, 1944-1947,” and Chapter Eight, “Ethnic Minorities under Soviet Occupation, 1944-1947,” in Marek Jan Chodakiewicz, Between Nazis and Soviets: A Case Study of Occupation Politics in Poland, 1939-1947 (Lanham, MD: Lexington Books, 2003)

From the same author:

In our sample below we have documented more than 500 cases of torture. Almost all victims described below were ethnic Poles and Catholics, save for a single Jewish man. One hundred and fifty four victims are identified by name, including 21 women. Most of the victims of torture, except for some of the youngest ones, were involved in both the anti-Nazi and anti-Communist struggle from 1939. The victims were subjected at least to 49 types of torture. Twelve prisoners were tortured to death, while 8 were shot immediately after the torture sessions (usually following a sham trial). Eight prisoners, including three women, withstood the torture, refused to confess, and survived their ordeal. In 143 (out of 154) cases the prisoners broke down and confessed their real and alleged “crimes.” Hence, our research strongly suggests that torture served its intended purpose,[53] a few exceptions notwithstanding.[54]

Besides, this deals with interogation. This doesn't:

As Professor Krystyna Kersten has noted perceptively, the independentist insurgents and the parliamentary opposition were the chief “reactionaries.” Significantly, “reactionary” was synonymous with “bandit,” “traitor,” “fascist,” “Hitlerite,” “anti-Semite,” and “Jew-killer.” Whoever killed Jews was not just a traitor, but also “an agent of Hitler.” Anybody who opposed the Communists was also a potential “Jew-killer,” or at least could be accused of such terrible anti-Semitic deeds, and, hence, branded “a Nazi collaborator.” This was a convenient propaganda device commonly employed to dupe the West into believing that the opponents of the Communists were pro-Nazi and that the brutal crushing of the independentist insurrection and the parliamentary opposition in Poland was simply a mop-up operation which fittingly concluded the anti-German struggles of the Second World War. This was also a useful tool to rally the population behind the Communists in meting out justice to alleged Polish “Hitlerites.”[45] (The trick was further intended to endear the proxy regime to the Jewish community at home and abroad.)[46]

Now, remember that notes are important?

46] This propaganda ploy therefore required that the Communists effusively play the role of the sole protectors of the Jewish people. On April 17, 1949, the head of the proxy regime in Warsaw, Bolesław Bierut, cynically informed a visiting Jewish-American delegation that “killing a Jew is ten times more of a crime than ordinary killing” and vowed to punish severely anyone responsible for crimes against the Jews. See Joseph Tenenbaum, In Search of A Lost People: The Old and the New Poland (New York: The Beechhurst Press, 1948), 227.

Numerous other so-called “pro-Jewish” statements were routinely made to that effect by the Communist officials and the regime-controlled media. See also Simon Segal, “Eastern Europe,” The American Jewish Yearbook, 5705, vol. 46: September 18, 1944 to September 7, 1945, ed. by Harry Schneiderman (Philadelphia: The Jewish Publication Society of America, 1944), 240-44;

Now, what were we talking about?
1jolaThreads: 33
Posts: 2,737
Joined: Sep 23, 08
Edited by: 1jola   Feb 16, 09, 13:17 /  #
Harry:
We should call people what they call themselves? Good idea. Now we have agreed that no Polish Jews were involved with the Party or the security services post-WWII. Religion was not compatible with Stalinism...

You seem to be under the impression that all Jews must be religious; they seize to be Jewish if they don't believe in God. Is that right, genius? And we haven't agreed on anything yet, but your logic is lacking.
HarryThreads: 62
Posts: 8,508
Joined: May 2, 07
[Suspended]
  Feb 16, 09, 13:23 /  #
1jola:
You seem to be under the impression that all Jews must be religious; they seize to be Jewish if they don't believe in God. Is that right, genius?

I was replying to your statement that we should call people what they call themselves. Evidence would suggest that no communist would call themselves religious.

Or do you have any proof that any of the people working for the Polish state in the 1940s, 1950s or 1960s described themselves as 'Jewish'?
sjamThreads: 5
Posts: 1,016
Joined: Jan 13, 09
Edited by: sjam   Feb 16, 09, 13:26 /  #
1jola:
[56] This seems to have been the case especially in the countryside but to a lesser extent on the central command level

I could have pasted in the note as you have done but it doesn't support to your assertion that Polish Jews had control of communist security apparatus. Footnote 56 doesn't contradict the author's earlier research statement that:

' they found many eager Polish collaborators. Although no thorough search has been undertaken in the secret police personal files nationwide, the evidence accumulated here suggests that most of the functionaries of the Communist terror apparatus were ethnic Poles of lower class origin.

only to a lesser extent on the central command level?

they found many eager Polish collaborators.

Maybe this is the bit you have difficultly swallowing... my warm milk drink might in fact be of more help to you as I wouldn't like you to choke on the facts!

1jola:
Almost all victims described below were ethnic Poles and Catholics, save for a single Jewish man.

And your point is? That there as there is only one 'Jewish man' mentioned in this research the perpetrators against these victims must have been Polish Jews and not all those 'eager Polish collaborators'.

You might need more of my warm milk to swallow that.

For those that might be interested in this very well researched and balanced document:
Marek Jan Chodakiewicz: The Dialectics of Pain: The Interrogation Methods of the Communist Secret Police in Poland, 1944-1955.
1jolaThreads: 33
Posts: 2,737
Joined: Sep 23, 08
  Feb 16, 09, 13:46 /  #
Harry:
I was replying to your statement that we should call people what they call themselves. Evidence would suggest that no communist would call themselves religious.

Or do you have any proof that any of the people working for the Polish state in the 1940s, 1950s or 1960s described themselves as 'Jewish'?

It's a fact. Under Narodowość some put down Żydowska.

Harry:
Evidence would suggest that no communist would call themselves religious.

You are observant and perceptive, in your own way.
HarryThreads: 62
Posts: 8,508
Joined: May 2, 07
[Suspended]
  Feb 16, 09, 13:47 /  #
1jola:
It's a fact. Under Narodowość some put down Żydowska.

No, I said do you have any proof that any of the people working for the Polish state in the 1940s, 1950s or 1960s described themselves as 'Jewish'.
1jolaThreads: 33
Posts: 2,737
Joined: Sep 23, 08
Edited by: 1jola   Feb 16, 09, 14:24 /  #
sjam:
I could have pasted in the note as you have done

...but because the explanation didn't suit your 'argument', you didn't.


sjam:
your assertion that Polish Jews had control of communist security apparatus

So what is your assertion? They were persecuted because they were Jews?

sjam:
1jola: Almost all victims described below were ethnic Poles and Catholics, save for a single Jewish man.

And your point is?

Given your recent liberty with quotes, you should be more careful. I didn't say that, a historian said it. It was a miracle that all 500 were not Jewish.

sjam:
they found many eager Polish collaborators.

Maybe this is the bit you have difficultly swallowing...

Why would I have difficulty?
The only difficulty I have is with those hidering their prosecution. It sounds like it is you who would look in their pants. All should be punished, or should the Jewish ones not be punished because they are Holocaust survivors?
HarryThreads: 62
Posts: 8,508
Joined: May 2, 07
[Suspended]
  Feb 16, 09, 14:34 /  #
1jola:
Given your recent liberty with quotes, you should be more careful. I didn't say that, a historian said it. It was a miracle that all 500 were not Jewish.

Yes a historian did say it. And then you portrayed it as a statement that only Jewish Poles were torturers.....
sjamThreads: 5
Posts: 1,016
Joined: Jan 13, 09
Edited by: sjam   Feb 16, 09, 15:07 /  #
1jola:
Given your recent liberty with quotes, you should be more careful. I didn't say that, a historian said it. It was a miracle that all 500 were not Jewish.

The historian didn't embolden the text below you did so I asked what point you were trying to make by this editing?

1jola:
In our sample below we have documented more than 500 cases of torture. Almost all victims described below were ethnic Poles and Catholics, save for a single Jewish man.

So I repeat:

And your point for emboldening the text was? That as there is only one 'Jewish man' mentioned in this research the perpetrators against these victims must have been Polish Jews and not all those 'eager Polish collaborators'. This must be so as you have stated more than onec that the communist security apparatus was contolled by Jews, not by Poles. Not so given that 67% of MBP were these 'eager Polish collaborators'.

That there was only one Jewish person out of 500 is not actually that surprising or miraculous as many did Polish Jews did not join AK and NSZ etc., as they believed them to be virulently anti-semitic (must have been covered in past threads?) These 'prisoners' were mainly former AK, NSZ, WiN and successor organisations were they not?

I don't understand the reference to looking in their pants? This is obviously way too clever for me and over my head.

Harry:
And then you portrayed it as a statement that only Jewish Poles were torturers.....

Surely not? What a scurrilous suggestion!

I don't understand why 1jola has such a downer on communists' Polish Jews or otherwise afterall he/she/or it escaped to the free west... and now they (communists) have all gone is free to go back and enjoy the freedom so hard won by his fellow countrymen... what a joker... almost spilt my warm milk laughing so much ;-))
1jolaThreads: 33
Posts: 2,737
Joined: Sep 23, 08
  Feb 17, 09, 10:40 /  #
Harry:
1jola: Given your recent liberty with quotes, you should be more careful. I didn't say that, a historian said it. It was a miracle that all 500 were not Jewish.

Yes a historian did say it. And then you portrayed it as a statement that only Jewish Poles were torturers.....

You are truly dense, sir.
1jolaThreads: 33
Posts: 2,737
Joined: Sep 23, 08
Edited by: 1jola   Feb 17, 09, 10:57 /  #
sjam:
So I repeat:

And your point for emboldening the text was?

So you could draw some conclusions.


sjam:
That there was only one Jewish person out of 500 is not actually that surprising or miraculous as many did Polish Jews did not join AK and NSZ etc., as they believed them to be virulently anti-semitic

Were they? There were Jews even at the command level. What formations did the Jews join then? NKVD?

sjam:
These 'prisoners' were mainly former AK, NSZ, WiN and successor organisations were they not?

Yes, they were. They fought for independent Poland. In your twisted mind they were anti-semitic. They were anti-communist.

sjam:
I don't understand why 1jola has such a downer on communists' Polish Jews

I hate communists, full stop.

sjam:
... and now they (communists) have all gone

Where have they all gone? Cuba?
sjamThreads: 5
Posts: 1,016
Joined: Jan 13, 09
  Feb 17, 09, 12:08 /  #
1jola:
So you could draw some conclusions.

I did. But you didn't like the conclusion I reached so you resorted to derision, to which I have responded. Leaving this aside, your assertion that Polish Jews controlled the communist security apparatus (and therefore by implication were responsible for all the tortures of anti-communist restistance fighter) is not borne out by anything you have presented so far.

1jola:
as they believed them to be virulently anti-semitic

I personally don't believe this is the complete truth,but many Polish Jews did. There were Polish Jews in the AK but most (not all) hid their identity as they were afraid of being victimised (and sometimes murdered) by anti-semitic factions within the in AK. This is a fact! If you at the very least have seen the documentary Polish Jews in the Warsaw Uprising (1944) you will hear from those Polish Jews who participated in the 1944 Rising in the AK. There is enough information 'out there' that supports the quoted statement; that Polish Jews believed the the AK to be virulently anti-semitic.

1jola:
What formations did the Jews join then? NKVD?

Those few Polish Jews that were able to escape ghettos and deportations into the forest formed their own partisan groups; joined Soviet groups; joined Polish communist groups (to join all those 'eager Polish communist collaborators') -- all well known.


1jola:
sjam:
... and now they (communists) have all gone

Where have they all gone? Cuba?

Maybe they escaped to the free west for a better life as well once Poland regained its independence from Russia.

Or maybe you are saying Poland isn't a free country (in the western sense) now... and therefore you are still sheltering in the free west from the present communist oppressors of Poland. If so poor thing, to be an exile without a country, you must be wondering if it ever be safe to live there? And poor Poles still having to suffer communist oppression when I thought it was all over? Can Poles not just vote the communists away? Will they never be free? What can the world do to help?

BTW. I repeat; I don't understand the reference to looking in their pants? This is obviously way too clever for me and over my head. Please explain?
1jolaThreads: 33
Posts: 2,737
Joined: Sep 23, 08
Edited by: 1jola   Feb 17, 09, 12:19 /  #
sjam:
BTW. I repeat; I don't understand the reference to looking in their pants? This is obviously way too clever for me and over my head. Please explain?

Jews were circumcised, gentiles were not.

I'll get back to you.

1jola: as they believed them to be virulently anti-semitic

Stop attributing your own statements to me.
HarryThreads: 62
Posts: 8,508
Joined: May 2, 07
[Suspended]
  Feb 17, 09, 13:22 /  #
1jola:
Yes, they were. They fought for independent Poland. In your twisted mind they were anti-semitic. They were anti-communist.

This would be the same NSZ which, amongst other things, murdered Leon Feldhendler, leader of the Sobibor rebellion, for being Jewish? The same NSZ which carried out massacres of Jews during the closing days of the war? The same NSZ that carried out ethnic cleansing against Belorussians in the Bielsko Podlaska region in January 1946?

page 5 of 6:  « Prev  1  2  3  4  5  6  Next »Go UPtop of page


Similar discussions:

Similar to: Col.Jozef Swiatlo-Secret agent, torturer, CIA-collaborator to be tried?
Józef Zachariasz Bem - does anyone know anything special about him?
Jozef back in the flying seat after 67 years
Secret grave of Polish hero 'discovered'
Family Secret - Piaski, Lublin --- Help Needed.
i want to be your sourcing agent in china
want be the goods sourcing agent for you in China
Is Nicholas Sarkozy a Mossad Agent?
Moscow: “Katyn massacre” files to remain secret
Angel City development, Krakow - rental/sale apartments required by local agent

What was Polands greatest historical moment?  Who Was Really Behind the Shooting of John Paul II?

Random: Can i find Tatra beer in Chicago?
Archives / 2009 / History of Poland /posts: 155


This forum is archived (read-only).
Category:
© 2005-2010 PolishForums.com | PolishForums LIVE | Archives | Random | Statistics