"GANGING UP" ON POLAND?

WARSAW (Reuters) - A campaign by heirs of Polish aristocrats to recover a palace seized by the communists has exposed Poland's continued failure to resolve the restitution of property to former owners after two decades of democracy. The Branicki family says it has now decided to demand the return of the entire estate at Wilanow Palace, not just family heirlooms and archives as previously planned, due to frustration over lack of progress in a legal battle dating back to 1990.

Polonius3Threads: 963 Posts: 4,547 Joined: Apr 11, 08	Jul 4, 09, 22:57 / #
In a relatively short space of time the Russians have blamed Poland for starting WW2 (by not giving in to Herr Hitler's "reasonable" demand for the city of Gdańsk), the Germans (Der Spiegel) have called Poles accomplices in the Holocaust, the Jews are accusing Poles of not honouring Jewish property-restitution claims and Ukrainians are lumping Poles together with Nazis and Stalinists as totalitarian occupation forces. I have put "ganging up" in inverted commas knowing that this is a coincidence rather than a coordianted campaign, but I'm wondering whether any PF-ers have some opinions on this.

frdThreads: 8 Posts: 1,956 Joined: Feb 3, 09	Jul 4, 09, 23:01 / #
There is always tention in the Polish relations with Russia.. I don't think it's gonna stop in the coming years.. as for Der Spiegel and Jews that's just some random rubbish..

PiorunThreads: - Posts: 741 Joined: Nov 11, 07	Jul 4, 09, 23:19 / #
When the Jews are involved, it's not an coincident.

frdThreads: 8 Posts: 1,956 Joined: Feb 3, 09	Jul 4, 09, 23:21 / #
Piorun: When the Jews are involved, it's not an coincident. Exactly, I smell an illuminati conspiracy here..

1jolaThreads: 33 Posts: 2,739 Joined: Sep 23, 08	Jul 4, 09, 23:25 / #
In almost unprecedented solidarity, all Polish political parties have rejected Jewish claims to heirless property. The chutzpah of the American Jews is sickening. The other rewriting of history no one takes seriously. I'm waiting for Russians to say they invaided us because we were about to invade them.

BzibziohThreads: 6 Posts: 3,648 Joined: Oct 15, 08	Jul 4, 09, 23:42 / #
1jola: I'm waiting for Russians to say they invaded us because we were about to invade them. Oh, don't be silly! They "liberated" us! It's because Polish government fled to Romania so there was no such a country as Poland at all. Don't you know? Kurica nie ptica, Polsza nie zagranica anyway :)

1jolaThreads: 33 Posts: 2,739 Joined: Sep 23, 08	Edited by: 1jola Jul 4, 09, 23:49 / #
Oh yes, the liberation of the opressed Belarussians and Ukrainians.

BzibziohThreads: 6 Posts: 3,648 Joined: Oct 15, 08	Jul 5, 09, 00:00 / #
I can't believe they actually issued stamps on that occasion!

SokratesThreads: 19 Posts: 4,464 Joined: Jan 19, 09 [Suspended]	Jul 5, 09, 00:17 / #
Thats actually a coincidence, all of the mentioned sides had different reasons for their assaults Germans trying to deal with their guilt by attempting to "share" blame with Poles, Jews venting their anger at Poland not giving them money and Russians just being Russian.

HarryThreads: 59 Posts: 7,994 Joined: May 2, 07	Jul 5, 09, 01:30 / #
Got to love how our Polish posters put all of this down to the fault of other people and refuse to even consider that Poland might in some way be responsible for at least a fraction of any problem.

1jolaThreads: 33 Posts: 2,739 Joined: Sep 23, 08	Jul 5, 09, 08:52 / #
Harry, that's like saying a car is made of rubber because is has a few rubber components, and in your case, pointing out the hoses and tires.

TorqThreads: 65 Posts: 4,023 Joined: Apr 10, 09 MEMBER	Jul 5, 09, 09:00 / #
1jola: Jewish claims to heirless property That's pure nonsense. I might as well start an organisation of right-handed people and start demanding from all the countries in the world to give my organisation back all the property (or money) of all those right-handed people who died or were killed without having an heir, only because I am right-handed. That's exactly what those Jewish organisations are doing: demanding money for the property left by heirless Jews to be given to them only because they are Jews.

sjamThreads: 5 Posts: 1,016 Joined: Jan 13, 09	Edited by: sjam Jul 5, 09, 09:53 / #
What no mention of non-Jewish Polish property restitution from WWII and communist era? Let me guess :-))) WARNING: It is anti-Polish to click any of the links contained in this post 'Statement of Miroslaw Szypowski, President of the Organization of Property Owners in Poland (Ogolnopolskie Porozumienie Organizacji Rewindykacyjnych) In the name of the Ogolnopolskie Porozumienie Organizacji Rewindykacyjnych/National Polish Understanding of Recovery Organizations representing more than 250,000 members, I wouldlike to assure the Committee that we fully sympathize and support your demand in the matter of an urgent arrangement by the Polish Government and Parliament of a law permitting the return of property plundered on the basis of confiscation decrees and laws of the Communist Government to the lawful owners and heirs. The confiscation of assets, frequently comprising possessions accumulated over several generations, by the Communist regime affected all Polish citizens including a large number of Jews particularly harmed by Holocaust criminals. The fact that 15 years have passed since the government’s transformation took place in Poland and the Polish state has done nothing to achieve even partially a redress of harms that other former states of the Communist block have already done, places successive governments and parliaments in Poland in not the best position. Seems to be quite a few other interested parties 'Ganging up on Poland' for their rights: OGÓLNOPOLSKIE POROZUMIENIE ORGANIZACJI REWINDYKACYJNYCH (OPOR) POLSKA UNIA WŁAŚCICIELI NIERUCHOMOŚCI (PUWN) ZRZESZENIE WŁAŚCICIELI NIERUCHOMOŚCI W WARSZAWIE (ZWN-Wa) STOWARZYSZENIE WŁAŚCICIELI NIERUCHOMOŚCI W ŁODZI (SWN-Łó) OGÓLNOPOLSKIE STOWARZYSZENIE WŁAŚCICIELI NIERUCHOMOŚCI Z SIEDZIBĄ W GDYNI (SWN-Gd) OGÓLNOPOLSKIE STOWARZYSZENIE KRESOWIAN WIERZYCIELI SKARBU PAŃSTWA (OSK-WSP) ZWIĄZEK WYSIEDLONYCH WIERZYCIELI SKARBU PAŃSTWA (ZWWSP) WIELKOPOLSKIE STOWARZYSZENIE WYWŁASZCZONYCH (WSW) POLSKIE TOWARZYSTWO ZIEMIAŃSKIE (PTZ) ZWIĄZEK SZLACHTY POLSKIEJ (ZSzP) STOWARZYSZENIE POSZKODOWANYCH MIESZCZAN WARSZAWSKICH (SPMW) STOWARZYSZENIE PRZEMYSŁOWCÓW POLSKICH (SPP) STOWARZYSZENIE BYŁYCH WŁAŚCICIELI APTEK I WYTWÓRNI FARMACEUTYCZNYCH ORAZ ICH RODZIN "APTEKARZE" STOWARZYSZENIE WŁAŚCICIELI WYWŁASZCZONYCH PÓL I HAL W TATRACH (SWWPiHwT) STOWARZYSZENIE WŁAŚCICIELI I SPADKOBIERCÓW OSÓB POSZKODOWANYCH PRZEZ REFORMĘ ROLNĄ „KASZUBI” STOWARZYSZENIE ŁEMKÓW (SŁ) ZJEDNOCZENIE ŁEMKÓW (ZŁ) SPOŁECZNE STOWARZYSZENIE „GROMADA WAWRZYSZEW” ZWIĄZEK GMIN WYZNANIOWYCH ŻYDOWSKICH W POLSCE STOWARZYSZENIE OSÓB ZAPOMNIANYCH PRZEZ BANKI NIEMIECKIE (SOZpBN) And no mention of the unwillingness of the Polish state to settle with surviving heirs such as Henryk Pikielny, a Holocaust survivor originally from Lodz, Poland, who has filed a case against Poland with the European Court on Human Rights for compensation for his family’s manufacturing company stolen by the Nazis and taken over by Poland after World War II. or non-Jewish cases such as: Polish family seeks return of old royal palace WARSAW (Reuters) - A campaign by heirs of Polish aristocrats to recover a palace seized by the communists has exposed Poland's continued failure to resolve the restitution of property to former owners after two decades of democracy. The Branicki family says it has now decided to demand the return of the entire estate at Wilanow Palace, not just family heirlooms and archives as previously planned, due to frustration over lack of progress in a legal battle dating back to 1990. And I still have my eye on that nice shinny new office block built on the site of ul. Panska 28 in Warsaw (opposite ul. Marianska) that used to belong to my father's family until they were forcibly removed to make way for the 'Little Ghetto'. Before anyone asks: I agree with the UK system that after due process all intestate or heirless assests revert to the state. Period. Its not just Russians, everyone attempts to rewrite history to suit their own ends --one only has to read PF to see how it works :-)) And I am sure some will say I am the biggest culprit but that suits their purpose as it does mine :-))

SeanusThreads: 22 Posts: 30,160 Joined: Dec 25, 07	Jul 5, 09, 10:08 / #
That's PO for you, they are Jewish sympathisers. Anyone who is humanitarian should sympathise with what happened to them but I expect a more balanced approach from the governing party.

BzibziohThreads: 6 Posts: 3,648 Joined: Oct 15, 08	Jul 5, 09, 02:11 / #
Harry: Got to love how our Polish posters put all of this down to the fault of other people and refuse to even consider that Poland might in some way be responsible for at least a fraction of any problem. So are you saying we should agree with the Russians about blaming Poland for starting WW2, the Germans who have called Poles accomplices in the Holocaust, pay the Jews for property destroyed by Germans, and Ukrainians who are lumping Poles together with Nazis and Stalinists as totalitarian occupation forces. And just to humor you personally we should thank the Brits for doing absolutely nothing at the beginning of WW2. Would that do?

Pan KazimierzThreads: 2 Posts: 276 Joined: Jul 4, 09	Jul 5, 09, 10:10 / #
I personally agree that Poland should meet the property and monetary demands, but only if Germany paid for them. And the Ukrainians... fine, leave them. Cut contact. No more aid, no more nothing... I'm sure the majority of Polish really wouldn't mind too much. Otherwise, no, I don't agree that Poland should accept 'a fraction of the guilt' for the Holocaust, or for 'starting WWII'. Surely you, Harry, as a person with at the very least rudimentary knowledge of said history, in fact agree.

SeanusThreads: 22 Posts: 30,160 Joined: Dec 25, 07	Jul 5, 09, 10:14 / #
Another joker! Why should modern day Germany, who already gives much through the EU, give anything of the sort? The people who should have paid such costs are long gone. Get over it! Also, don't sour relations with the Ukrainians. I agree with your second part, though.

Pan KazimierzThreads: 2 Posts: 276 Joined: Jul 4, 09	Jul 5, 09, 11:07 / #
Because the German government is (was) much more accountable for loss of property in Poland than the Polish government. Which arguably isn't even the same government now as at the time of said events any more than the German government. Which is not to say that the German government should, so late after the fact, pay any such fees... to the contrary, I dare suggest that the concept is laughable, but that the idea of Poland providing reimbursement for these 'displaced peoples' is even more so.

1jolaThreads: 33 Posts: 2,739 Joined: Sep 23, 08	Jul 5, 09, 11:10 / #
Sjam, You are not paying attention. The claims we are talking about are by Jewish organizations trying to guilt Poland into giving money for lost property which has no heirs. Try to focus on that if you will and not on a different issue. My family has also lost property, as scores of other Polish families, and it is very difficult to recover any of it. It took my father six years to recover a small portion of it; it is possible. The Jewish organizations claim individual Jewish property belongs to Jews in general. It is a ridiculous and rasist view that no democratic nation accepts anywhere. The Jewish organizations claims Jews are unique and normal rules don't apply. I would bet that most Jews worldwide would agree that these organizations represent a small percentage of Jews and are engaging in a fleecing operation designed to benefit a small circle of wealthy people who are doing more harm than good. They are creating anti-Semitism where otherwise there would be none.

SeanusThreads: 22 Posts: 30,160 Joined: Dec 25, 07	Jul 5, 09, 11:11 / #
I'm not saying that Poland should, that wouldn't be fair. However, Merkel's Germany is not a Nazi regime in my eyes ;) ;) You suggested payments should be made above, PK. Why can't Poland take a clear stand on sth and enforce it THERE AND THEN? Why bicker and whine for many years? Do sth about it!

Pan KazimierzThreads: 2 Posts: 276 Joined: Jul 4, 09	Jul 5, 09, 11:28 / #
I'm not saying that Poland should, that wouldn't be fair. However, Merkel's Germany is not a Nazi regime in my eyes ;) ;) In the same sense that modern-day Poland is not a Soviet satellite in my eyes. So basically, it seems we agree. You suggested payments should be made above, PK. To the contrary, it was my intention to suggest that no payments should be forthcoming. And that just as Poland is not asking for any reparations from Germany at this point, nor should an unrelated (or related) group of Jews ask for the same from Poland whilst keeping a straight face. Why can't Poland take a clear stand on sth and enforce it THERE AND THEN? Why bicker and whine for many years? Do sth about it! Sorry... what exactly is it that you are suggesting Poland should do?

SeanusThreads: 22 Posts: 30,160 Joined: Dec 25, 07	Jul 5, 09, 11:51 / #
It would seem that way. Poland is NOT a Soviet satellite, that's true. I thought you were saying that the demands should be met in post 16, provided it was the Germans that met them. Maybe I read it wrong. I'm suggesting that if Poland feels strongly enough about sth, it should take action.

HarryThreads: 59 Posts: 7,994 Joined: May 2, 07	Jul 5, 09, 12:18 / #
OK, as you all asked so nicely, I'll agree with you: Poland is acting perfectly with regard to restitution issues, properties were destroyed and that is the perfect justification for refusing to give back anything (such as say the very valuable land the destroyed building once stood on); not one single Pole ever did anything to assist with the holocaust and all the testimony from Poles about Poles assisting is anti-Polish propaganda; Poland behaved perfectly when betraying her Ukrainian allies, nicking half their country and operating a brutal policy of Polonisation. As for Poland starting WWII, that's just the Russian government being nuts: it's what they do!

1jolaThreads: 33 Posts: 2,739 Joined: Sep 23, 08	Jul 5, 09, 12:32 / #
I'm glad you are finally coming around, Harry. lol

Pan KazimierzThreads: 2 Posts: 276 Joined: Jul 4, 09	Jul 5, 09, 12:53 / #
Harry OK, as you all asked so nicely, I'll agree with you: Poland is acting perfectly with regard to restitution issues, properties were destroyed, wars were fought, and governments changed multiple times, and that is the perfect justification for refusing to give back anything (such as say the very valuable land the destroyed building once stood on) *without much due process to ascertain beyond doubt right of ownership.*; not one single Polish government ever did anything to assist with the holocaust and all the testimony from Poles about Poles assisting is less than coincidental and pales in significance next to said Poles saving the lives of hundreds of thousands of Jews, thus earning first place in 'Righteous Among The Nations', and then later aiding survivors as they fled to Israel to avoid the difficulties of live in a Soviet Satellite; Fixed. Poland behaved perfectly when betraying her Ukrainian allies, nicking half their country and operating a brutal policy of Polonisation. Wait, what? I'm honestly not even sure how to go about this one. It sounds much like the 'Started WWII' one, except much less susceptible to logic. =/

1jolaThreads: 33 Posts: 2,739 Joined: Sep 23, 08	Edited by: 1jola Jul 5, 09, 13:28 / #
Correct me if I'm wrong, but the was no such country as Ukraine till 1991.

PlasticPoleThreads: 10 Posts: 5,181 Joined: May 28, 09	Edited by: PlasticPole Jul 5, 09, 13:29 / #
Harry, you forget this one thing. There's another thread around here somewhere with a long list of countries who allied with Nazi Germany. It would have been too easy for Poland to include itself on that list but which name is conspicuously missing? It goes to show Poland didn't buckle under pressure and deserves a lot of credit for that. Poland was never allied with Nazi Germany why should it be treated worse than the countries that were? Instead of saying "If Poland would have given Gdańsk to Hitler WWII wouldn't have happened", they should be thinking and saying, "If all those countries would have been more like Poland, not allying themselves with the Nazis WWII wouldn't have happened" Harry, honestly, you are being one sided.

HarryThreads: 59 Posts: 7,994 Joined: May 2, 07	Jul 5, 09, 14:31 / #
PP: that would be a masterly argument if I had claimed that Poland started WWII. Unfortunately for you, I didn't make that argument. Nice try though. 1jola: would you please be so kind as to quote the part of my post which talks about a country called Ukraine?

1jolaThreads: 33 Posts: 2,739 Joined: Sep 23, 08	Jul 5, 09, 14:36 / #
Harry: nicking half their country

Pan KazimierzThreads: 2 Posts: 276 Joined: Jul 4, 09	Jul 5, 09, 14:57 / #
Actually, you forgot the "their Ukrainian allies" part.