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Gdansk and it's history with Poland


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TorqThreads: 65
Posts: 4,024
Joined: Apr 10, 09  Gold Member MEMBER  Pictures: 1 		  Jul 9, 09, 14:16 /  #
No need to apologize. Well, maybe to professor Davies - a serious and honest
historian, for believing the pety rumours of him being "biased polonophile".
Bratwurst BoyThreads: 11
Posts: 14,563
Joined: Apr 2, 07 		Edited by: Bratwurst Boy   Jul 9, 09, 14:18 /  #
Torq:
biased polonophile

Well....I just think we should use other sources beside him to prove a point in a discussion.
(Just to make sure)
If his facts and conclusions are correct (as with Kopernikus using polish) then they will be supported by others too, no doubt...(as it was with Gross' findings about Jedwabne)
HarryThreads: 62
Posts: 8,508
Joined: May 2, 07 [Suspended]		   Jul 9, 09, 15:24 /  #
Torq:
Well, maybe to professor Davies - a serious and honest historian

Personally, and I know I'm not alone in thinking this, I find Davies too popularist, condescending selective and frankly biased to be referred to as a serious historian. Just look at Rising '44: his message is that Warsaw was sacrificed by the Western allies but he gives close to bugger all attention to western attempts to supply Warsaw (doesn't even mention the number of flights) and none at all to the actually feasibility of the Western allies supplying the Uprising (most probably because it was pretty much fecking impossible for them to have done so and so doesn't fit his theory). I particularly dislike his angelcising of Warsaw street names and referring to people only by either pseudonyms or positions Premier Mikolajczyk becomes "Premier Mick" while General Bor-Komorowski becomes "General Boor".
Pan KazimierzThreads: 2
Posts: 276
Joined: Jul 4, 09 		Edited by: Pan Kazimierz   Jul 9, 09, 23:59 /  #
BB
No, I ask you!

Sorry, I'm not in a position to answer right now. Theoretically, I could inconvenience myself to no end to provide for you exactly what it will take to convince you of most anything even partially ambiguously against the German nation, but in that case, maybe it shouldn't be too hard for you, either? There is a limit to how much time I have on my hands that I wish to use browsing the web for obscure topics for the betterment of people who I know scarcely at best, though such time exists, and trying to dig up Davies' citations on this claim for free have already caused me to go over it. I know it's not your fault, but it's just not happening at this point in time.


There should be another source to find on the net besides Davies (who is a tad to biased concerning Poland anyhow for my taste).

If that is the case, please do, in fact, find a better one, and I'll thank you for it. Though, since any historian that claims 'evidence that Copernicus spoke the Polish language' could just be written off by you as 'Polonophilic', that will likely be very difficult.
I'm sure that, say, Adam Zamoyski for example would have put in some input on the topic, but even I don't like citing the guy in favor of Poland.
Bratwurst BoyThreads: 11
Posts: 14,563
Joined: Apr 2, 07 		Edited by: Bratwurst Boy   Jul 10, 09, 00:04 /  #
Pan Kazimierz:
Sorry, I'm not in a position to answer right now.

Don't sweat it, but make sure you have a viable link to support your claims next time.

Pan Kazimierz:
If that is the case, please do, in fact, find a better one, and I'll thank you for it.

What??? Now I should provide the proof for YOUR claim??? LOL
And I told you before that we had already a lengthy and passionate discussion about the heritage of Kopernikus here on PF before...many pages long.
We found lot's of stuff and facts and some disputed claims (you could search the forum, you will easily find this thread) but nobody could find a proof that he ever used polish, hence the interest for your claim!

Pan Kazimierz:
Though, since any historian that claims 'evidence that Copernicus spoke the Polish language' could just be written off by you as 'Polonophilic', that will likely be very difficult.

Nope...any evidence will be enough but just saying so isn't!
TorqThreads: 65
Posts: 4,024
Joined: Apr 10, 09  Gold Member MEMBER  Pictures: 1 		  Jul 10, 09, 00:17 /  #
This whole Kopernik issue discussion is getting pretty boring anyway.

Can't we all just agree that he was Polish and end this silly argument?

;)
Bratwurst BoyThreads: 11
Posts: 14,563
Joined: Apr 2, 07 		Edited by: Bratwurst Boy   Jul 10, 09, 00:19 /  #
Torq:
Can't we all just agree that he was Polish and end this silly argument?

;)

Then I claim Nicola Tesla for Austria! ;)
*looks around for Crowie*

(He was for sure ethnical Serb but was subject to
the austrian Empire....so there)
Pan KazimierzThreads: 2
Posts: 276
Joined: Jul 4, 09 		Edited by: Pan Kazimierz   Jul 10, 09, 12:40 /  #
Bratwurst Boy:
Don't sweat it, but make sure you have a viable link to support your claims next time.

What about a book title, author, and page number where said evidence could be found?

I don't claim to 'know' the statement made to have been true, myself, but I think it's just silly to write it off without doing just so much to check...
1jolaThreads: 33
Posts: 2,737
Joined: Sep 23, 08 		  Jul 10, 09, 13:38 /  #
Bratwurst Boy:
Jan Gross for example is also a popular historian (well known in the West) who too wrote about polish history.

First of all, he is a sociologist not a historian.

Bratwurst Boy:
If his facts and conclusions are correct

His "facts" are so wrong and his scholarship so faulty that his works could be called historical pornography for Jews.
HarryThreads: 62
Posts: 8,508
Joined: May 2, 07 [Suspended]		 Edited by: Harry   Jul 10, 09, 15:30 /  #
1jola:
First of all, he is a sociologist not a historian.

You might want to email Princeton: they employ him as a history professor.


Bratwurst Boy:
Then I claim Nicola Tesla for Austria! ;)
*looks around for Crowie*

(He was for sure ethnical Serb but was subject to
the austrian Empire....so there)

And Marie Curie is Russian. OK she was an ethnic Pole and used Polish as her main language but she was a subject of the Russian empire!
King SobieskiThreads: 7
Posts: 1,106
Joined: Jan 22, 07 		  Jul 10, 09, 15:47 /  #
Harry:
I particularly dislike his angelcising of Warsaw street names and referring to people only by either pseudonyms or positions Premier Mikolajczyk becomes "Premier Mick" while General Bor-Komorowski becomes "General Boor".

it isnt right but he did mention in his books that he did shorten the names or anglicise them to make the books easier to read and to follow the array of characters.
HarryThreads: 62
Posts: 8,508
Joined: May 2, 07 [Suspended]		   Jul 10, 09, 16:51 /  #
King Sobieski:
it isnt right but he did mention in his books that he did shorten the names or anglicise them to make the books easier to read and to follow the array of characters.

Exactly what I meant by condescending.
King SobieskiThreads: 7
Posts: 1,106
Joined: Jan 22, 07 		  Jul 10, 09, 17:03 /  #
Harry:
Exactly what I meant by condescending.

not really, my last name has 12 letters, and the only ones to pronounce it correctly are either poles or slavs. so, i can see why he did....i would have more issue with my uncle shortening his name than some author of a book.
HarryThreads: 62
Posts: 8,508
Joined: May 2, 07 [Suspended]		   Jul 10, 09, 17:07 /  #
King Sobieski:
my last name has 12 letters, and the only ones to pronounce it correctly are either poles or slavs.

When reading a book it is not necessary to know how to pronounce names! All you need to do is recognise the word when you see it.
King SobieskiThreads: 7
Posts: 1,106
Joined: Jan 22, 07 		  Jul 10, 09, 17:30 /  #
Harry:
When reading a book it is not necessary to know how to pronounce names! All you need to do is recognise the word when you see it.

i understand what you're saying...but can also see why he has chosen to do that.
Bratwurst BoyThreads: 11
Posts: 14,563
Joined: Apr 2, 07 		  Jul 10, 09, 18:13 /  #
What's wrong with "Bor-Komorowski"? Even I have no problems with that.
Calling him "Boor" IS curious to say at least...(and it is not even an anglicism and I think the General wouldn't like to be called that way in a work of history)
1jolaThreads: 33
Posts: 2,737
Joined: Sep 23, 08 		  Jul 10, 09, 18:26 /  #
Harry:
You might want to email Princeton: they employ him as a history professor.

I know they do. He is not a historian though.

Jan Tomasz Gross studied physics at the Warsaw University

In 1975 he earned a Ph.D. in sociology from Yale University

wiki
HarryThreads: 62
Posts: 8,508
Joined: May 2, 07 [Suspended]		   Jul 10, 09, 18:49 /  #
1jola:
I know they do. He is not a historian though.

I think we can probably rely in the history department of Princeton university to judge who is and is not a historian.

http://www.princeton.edu/history/people/display_person.xml?netid=jtgro ss
1jolaThreads: 33
Posts: 2,737
Joined: Sep 23, 08 		  Jul 10, 09, 19:12 /  #
Historians usually study history not physics and sociology.

As to Princton, please. Yale and Harvard turned out such geniuses as...George Bush.
Bratwurst BoyThreads: 11
Posts: 14,563
Joined: Apr 2, 07 		  Jul 10, 09, 19:20 /  #
1jola:
Yale and Harvard turned out such geniuses as...George Bush.

Ouch! :)
HarryThreads: 62
Posts: 8,508
Joined: May 2, 07 [Suspended]		   Jul 10, 09, 19:23 /  #
1jola:
Historians usually study history not physics and sociology.

I'll remind you of that next time you talk about the Kielce pogrom.


1jola:
Yale and Harvard turned out such geniuses as...George Bush.

Quite what that has to do with Jan Gross I have no idea.
1jolaThreads: 33
Posts: 2,737
Joined: Sep 23, 08 		  Jul 10, 09, 19:29 /  #
You seem to attach some great importance to Ivy League schools.

In this case they hired a sociologist to teach history. Duh?
z_dariusThreads: 22
Posts: 5,091
Joined: Oct 18, 07 		Edited by: z_darius   Jul 10, 09, 19:29 /  #
1jola:
As to Princton, please. Yale and Harvard turned out such geniuses as...George Bush.

And the geniuses were taught by frauds such as the polonophobe Kosinski, who was (among others) a lecturer at Yale and Princeton. He was a plagiarist and a liar. Luckily for all, Kosinski conducted a very late term abortion upon himself. He was not the first, nor unfortunately, the last Jew who lied about Poles.

So much for the Princeton argument.
1jolaThreads: 33
Posts: 2,737
Joined: Sep 23, 08 		Edited by: 1jola   Jul 10, 09, 19:40 /  #
Harry:
Only you could take a thread about Gdansk being Polish and turn it into a vehicle for you to spout yet more of your classy anti-semitism.

Harry:
I'll remind you of that next time you talk about the Kielce pogrom.

That was a nice try too, little Gross.

such as the polonophobe Kosinski,

Yeah, he was a beauty, although I liked his Being There.
King SobieskiThreads: 7
Posts: 1,106
Joined: Jan 22, 07 		  Jul 11, 09, 16:10 /  #
Bratwurst Boy:
What's wrong with "Bor-Komorowski"? Even I have no problems with that.
Calling him "Boor" IS curious to say at least...(and it is not even an anglicism and I think the General wouldn't like to be called that way in a work of history)

there is nothing wrong with it...but you're of european extraction.

having grown up as a first gen in australia believe me, borkomorowski would pose many pronounciation issues.
polishmeknobThreads: 12
Posts: 162
Joined: Feb 9, 09 		  Jul 22, 09, 18:19 /  #
Ironside:
Gdansk has century's long connection with Poland.
Those connection are good enough to say that Poland has historical rights to Gdańsk regardless that after year 1793 the town become German.

The town was ethnically German long before that.
SokratesThreads: 19
Posts: 4,464
Joined: Jan 19, 09 [Suspended]		   Jul 22, 09, 18:40 /  #
polishmeknob:
The town was ethnically German long before that.

Not that long, the town had a Polish majority for at least half a thousand years, nearly a thousand Polish knights fighting for the Teutons came from Gdańsk, Germans become a clear majority only in 16th-17th century.

As for the city itself, it was built by Poles over a thousand years ago, how can you get a better claim than that?
HarryThreads: 62
Posts: 8,508
Joined: May 2, 07 [Suspended]		   Jul 22, 09, 18:49 /  #
Sokrates:
As for the city itself, it was built by Poles over a thousand years ago,

Poles?
In 1379 a masonry master Heinrich Ungeradin with his team started construction work on the St. Mary's Church (Polish: Bazylika Mariacka, German: Marienkirche) or, properly, Basilica of the Assumption of the Blessed Virgin Mary in Gdańsk
Since 1485 the works were carried over by Hans Brandt, who supervised the erection of the main nave core. The works were finally finished after 1496 under Heinrich Haetzl.
The accounting books from 1379 – 1382 contain information on the expenditures on building materials and works carried out in the Town Hall by the bricklayer Heinrich Ungeradin. The works concerned the reconstruction and extension of the building to the west.
Heinrich and Hans, those are nice Polish names.

At the end of the 16th and beginning of the 17th century, this interior was decorated by artists of the golden age of Gdańsk arts, including such masters as: Izaak van den Block, Hans Vredeman de Vries, Willem van der Meer, Anton Moeller and Szymon Herle. Overall administration of the works was managed by Dutchman, Anton van Obberghen, who at the time held the position of town builder.
Izaak van den Block, Hans Vredeman de Vries, Willem van der Meer and Anton Moeller, all good Polish names. As is Anton van Obberghen. Oh bugger, they say he's Dutch.

The specific atmosphere of Gdańsk is also created by its bells. In 2000 a new outstanding 37-bell carillon was installed in the town hall tower The carillon was built by the Dutch bells and carillon manufacturer, Royal Eijsbouts in Asten.

* Green Gate in Gdańsk (built in 1564–1568 by Hans Kramer, a.k.a. Jan Krakowi)

* Upland Gate in Gdańsk (Willem van den Blocke finished it in 1588 and is better known by his given name: Willem van den Kowalski).

* Great Arsenal in Gdańsk (built in 1602–1606 by Anton van Obberghen, the Polish Dutchman)

* Old City Hall in Gdańsk (built in 1587–1595) probably by Anton van Obberghen, probably Polish)
IronsideThreads: 59
Posts: 6,778
Joined: Feb 26, 09 		Edited by: Ironside   Jul 23, 09, 00:16 /  #
polishmeknob:
The town was ethnically German long before that.

that pretty enigmatic statement could be more specific?

Harry:
Poles

So what?
Its only proves what should be known anyway, Poles at the time regardless of ethnicity were warriors, soldiers, statesman's, land owners,
workers, specialists and merchants were foreign or of foreign origin!
Do you have a problem with that?
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