Germans Exiles & Museum in Berlin in the eyes of Poles and UE nationals.

It is estimated that between 1.6 and 2 million people [9] were expelled from their homes during the German occupation of Poland. Only the German organized expulsions affected directly 1,710,000 Poles.[8] Additionally, 2.5 to 3 million Poles were taken from Poland as labourers to Germany to support the Nazi war effort.[5] These numbers do not include people arrested by the Germans and sent to Nazi concentration camps.[9]

In many instances, Poles were given between 15 minutes and 1 hour to collect their personal belongings (usually no more than 15 kilograms per person) before they were removed their homes and transported east (see: deportations) On top of that about 5 million[citation needed] Poles were sent to German concentration camps.[citation needed] A total of about 6 million Polish citizens were killed during the war.[citation needed] All these actions resulted in significant changes in Polish demographics at the end of the war

In 1941 it was decided to destroy the Polish nation completely and the German leadership decided that in 10 to 20 years the Polish state under German occupation was to be fully cleared of any ethnic Poles

IronsideThreads: 59 Posts: 6,786 Joined: Feb 26, 09	Edited by: Ironside May 21, 09, 01:22 / #
The Conference of Potsdam after WWII decided that all Germans from the territories given to Poland and from other country's from the Eastern Europe should be deported. There were about 12 millions Germans kick out during two years after war and about 2 millions died as result of dislocation, there are claims of forced marshes but historians are taking into account that German population from those territories were fleeing from the advancing Red Army, and estimate number of exiled Germans at 7 millions, about 3 from the present territory of Poland. Association of Exiles was created after war by Germans displaced as a result of Potsdam decisions, that organization played down by German politician as radical and unimportant part of German political scene.They main claims were up to the point - restoration of the German borders from 1937. Lately with ascendancy of second generation of "exiles" in the German politics something has changed, idea of commemorating Germans victims of war transformed into project to create museum of the exiles in Berlin. That project promoted by the controversial Erika Steinbach (born on the territory incorporated to III Reich during WWII as daughter of German officer, in the flat which belonged to the polish family kicked out by victorious III Reich, standard in such a cases they were given two hours get out!) one of the leaders and activist in the exiles organization. There was general hysteria in Poland and strong (words) against that project, though it was mostly media. I wonder what is real opinion on the subject of Poles and others nationalities too, as we are one big happy family in the EU. To prove it example of German music which I really enjoy: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=V92OBNsQgxU

Bratwurst BoyThreads: 11 Posts: 14,563 Joined: Apr 2, 07	Edited by: Bratwurst Boy May 21, 09, 08:36 / #
Erika Steinbach for chancellor! I admire tough ladies :) Interesting link in that context: http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/europe/russia/5350777/Russia -threatens-to-bar-Europeans-who-deny-Red-Army-liberated-them.html I hope Poles don't want to command how Germans can commemorate their victims too...

shopgirlThreads: 7 Posts: 1,446 Joined: Apr 6, 07	May 21, 09, 08:43 / #
We already had this thread..... Ironside, you can read the comments here... Should Germans claim to be victims in Poland?

SalomonThreads: 6 Posts: 602 Joined: Apr 7, 09	Edited by: Salomon May 21, 09, 08:44 / #
Ironside: That project promoted by the controversial Erika Steinbach (born on the territory incorporated to III Reich during WWII as daughter of German officer, in the flat which belonged to the polish family kicked out by victorious III Reich, standard in such a cases they were given two hours get out!) one of the leaders and activist in the exiles organization. Well perfect face for such initiative :)

Bratwurst BoyThreads: 11 Posts: 14,563 Joined: Apr 2, 07	Edited by: Bratwurst Boy May 21, 09, 08:49 / #
shopgirl: We already had this thread..... Ironside, you can read the comments here... Should Germans claim to be victims in Poland? Some Poles seem to think we should ask them if we are allowed...:) Support The Centre Against Expulsions has been supported by a number of human rights activists, historians, political scientists and authors as well as other people[citation needed]. Among these supporters are the United Nations' first High Commissioner for Human Rights Dr. José Ayala Lasso, German chancellor Angela Merkel[13], Nobel literature laureate and Holocaust survivor Imre Kertész, Joachim Gauck, Milan Horacek, former Austrian crown prince Otto von Habsburg, prominent German rabbis Walter Homolka, Eckart Klein, and historians such as Guido Knopp, Hungarian novelist György Konrád, historian Michael Wolffsohn, Hans Maier, Christian Tomuschat and Alfred M. de Zayas To f*ucking bad... http://www.bundesregierung.de/nn_6562/Content/EN/Artikel/2008/09/2008- 09-03-flucht-vertreibung-versoehnung__en.html

SalomonThreads: 6 Posts: 602 Joined: Apr 7, 09	Edited by: Salomon May 21, 09, 11:00 / #
"That project promoted by the controversial Erika Steinbach (born on the territory incorporated to III Reich during WWII as daughter of German officer, in the flat which belonged to the polish family kicked out by victorious III Reich, standard in such a cases they were given two hours get out!) one of the leaders and activist in the exiles organization." http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Expulsion_of_Poles_by_Germany It is estimated that between 1.6 and 2 million people [9] were expelled from their homes during the German occupation of Poland. Only the German organized expulsions affected directly 1,710,000 Poles.[8] Additionally, 2.5 to 3 million Poles were taken from Poland as labourers to Germany to support the Nazi war effort.[5] These numbers do not include people arrested by the Germans and sent to Nazi concentration camps.[9] In many instances, Poles were given between 15 minutes and 1 hour to collect their personal belongings (usually no more than 15 kilograms per person) before they were removed their homes and transported east (see: deportations) On top of that about 5 million[citation needed] Poles were sent to German concentration camps.[citation needed] A total of about 6 million Polish citizens were killed during the war.[citation needed] All these actions resulted in significant changes in Polish demographics at the end of the war http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Generalplan_Ost In 1941 it was decided to destroy the Polish nation completely and the German leadership decided that in 10 to 20 years the Polish state under German occupation was to be fully cleared of any ethnic Poles Well as to German interpertation of history ... LOL. Germans have tensions with more and more their neighbours because they think that they can be "the dog" again. In my opinion they are steping towards mistakes made by them in the past. Listen the voice of Switzerland ... listen to reasons why Belgians want to split in two pieces (listen to arguments of German part of the country). Go back in the history and remeber why Germans were fighting on two fronts durring WWII. ... Germans were using different methods on west and east but alwyas at the end were fighting on two fronts. Anti-German Hatred Rising In Switzerland http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2009/03/27/anti-german-hatred-rising_n_1 80034.html

Bratwurst BoyThreads: 11 Posts: 14,563 Joined: Apr 2, 07	Edited by: Bratwurst Boy May 21, 09, 11:34 / #
Bratwurst Boy: To f*ucking bad...lol I can see the steam coming out of your ears but there is NOTHING you can do about it, poor Luki!

SalomonThreads: 6 Posts: 602 Joined: Apr 7, 09	Edited by: Salomon May 21, 09, 12:02 / #
Bratwurst Boy: I can see the steam coming out of your ears but there is NOTHING you can do about it, poor Luki! One thing is sure old German domiantion game over Europe has started. Of course it will be not game with using arms ... rather different kinds of domiantion. Many of your neighbours see it, as you know your close neighbours have the best knowledge about you.

Bratwurst BoyThreads: 11 Posts: 14,563 Joined: Apr 2, 07	Edited by: Bratwurst Boy May 21, 09, 12:08 / #
Logic knocking on Lukis door: Germany will always be a dominant country! We are the second most poplous country (second only to Russia) and the biggest and most important economy, the biggest military and alot of other "biggest" and "most". No "game" needed... Get used to it! ...oh...and there is nothing you can do to change it...:) Salomon: rather different kinds of domiantion. Yeah...how bad of us! Why don't you try it yourself instead of pointing yellow and green with envy and resentment to your neighbours???

SalomonThreads: 6 Posts: 602 Joined: Apr 7, 09	Edited by: Salomon May 21, 09, 12:12 / #
Bratwurst Boy: ...oh...and there is nothing you can do to change it... Oh well ... this case shows us that even if you are not right you push forward project using your strenght ... you do such things with different neighbours ... don't be surprised that sombody will make coalition against you ... inside of EU (I am not talking military military aliance).

SokratesThreads: 19 Posts: 4,464 Joined: Jan 19, 09 [Suspended]	May 21, 09, 12:27 / #
Bratwurst Boy: You call a best friend of Merkel "neo nazi"??? Yes i do and i dont know if she's a friend of Merkel, deffinitely a political associate. Bratwurst Boy: That is sooooooooo lame....:) But even so, I think she won't lose any sleep over Poles disliking her. That comes with the job... No it doesnt, if someone is a nazi symphathized and a descendant of an ardent nazi upholding the family tradition he deserves our dislike, that she receives such support in Germany simply proves my point that your country is still problematic for Europe. I wouldnt mind an exiles museum but if its run by a closet nazi with anti-polish agenda then we clearly have a major problem.

Bratwurst BoyThreads: 11 Posts: 14,563 Joined: Apr 2, 07	Edited by: Bratwurst Boy May 21, 09, 12:30 / #
Sokrates: Yes i do and i dont know if she's a friend of Merkel, deffinitely a political associate. They are close. Without Merkel and Steinbach being so good buddies it wouldn't had worked out! Sokrates: No it doesnt, Yes it does. No german point of view is acceptable in the today Poland's mainstream. It's about time we stop caring and do what we think is right regardless what you think! Be it business contacts with the Russians or remembering our war victims! It's really about time...no ***** footing around you anymore. I myself losing my patience when I see idiots like Luki posting their crap here all the time. shows finger :) Sokrates: I wouldnt mind an exiles museum but if its run by a closet nazi with anti-polish agenda then we clearly have a major problem. Yes you do...for you EVERYBODY working for such a center is automatically a neo-nazi with an anti-polish agenda....as I said...it comes with the job! PS: How about some proof about Steinbach being a neo-nazi for once?

SokratesThreads: 19 Posts: 4,464 Joined: Jan 19, 09 [Suspended]	May 21, 09, 12:38 / #
Bratwurst Boy: They are close. Without Merkel and Steinbach being so good buddies it wouldn't had worked out! And thats not an issue, from what i know Merkel is a sensible woman, where she chooses her friends is her choice, Steinbach is quiet enough about her pro-nazi sympathies not to damage the overall picture. Bratwurst Boy: Yes it does. No german point of view is acceptable in the today Poland's mainstream No german point of view that attempts to rewrite history, shift blame or victimize the culprits, the primary people responsible for German resettlement were Germans themselves. However all this is a secondary issue, what matters is that this already controversial point of view is being promoted by an anti-polish pro nazi woman who's family in turn exiled Poles from their homes. Bratwurst Boy: Yes you do...for you EVERYBODY working for such a center is automatically a neo-nazi with an anti-polish agenda....as I said...it comes with the job! Again no, you laughed at me when i told you, you Germans are traumatized by WW2 unable to deal with the full weight of what you did, i can even deal with you slightly rewriting history for yourselves to sleep well at night but not under the banner of anti-polish and pro-nazi sympathies.

Grzegorz_Threads: 81 Posts: 6,213 Joined: Nov 16, 06	May 21, 09, 12:41 / #
Ironside: 2 millions died as result of dislocation That's a number "calculated" by "the union of expelled" in 50's. They took It out of their dirty asses to promote their "victimhood". I doubt the real number was even 1/10th of that.

Bratwurst BoyThreads: 11 Posts: 14,563 Joined: Apr 2, 07	Edited by: Bratwurst Boy May 21, 09, 12:13 / #
Salomon: don't be surprised that sombody will make coalition against you ... inside of EU. You can try what you want Luki...and I'm sure the moment you show you are committed, you take over some of the costs, become even a net contributor you might even be heard, it's only fair! :) PS: But still that wouldn't and shouldn't have any influence if and how a country commemorates its victims. I don't see what a polish led EU-alliance could do about it? Explain please...

SokratesThreads: 19 Posts: 4,464 Joined: Jan 19, 09 [Suspended]	May 21, 09, 12:18 / #
Bratwurst Boy: Erika Steinbach for chancellor! Neo-nazi anti polish bvtch that she is, she was against Poland in NATO, against Poland in EU, she has extensive ties with extreme right and is a daughter of an ardent Nazi who came to Poland and lived in a home of a Polish family that was either murdered or exiled themselves. There is nothing to admire about her.

Bratwurst BoyThreads: 11 Posts: 14,563 Joined: Apr 2, 07	Edited by: Bratwurst Boy May 21, 09, 12:21 / #
Sokrates: Neo-nazi anti polish bvtch that she is, You call a best friend of Merkel "neo nazi"??? That is sooooooooo lame....:) But even so, I think she won't lose any sleep over Poles disliking her. That comes with the job... Sokrates: There is nothing to admire about her. I would have to think twice about her if you would!

Bratwurst BoyThreads: 11 Posts: 14,563 Joined: Apr 2, 07	Edited by: Bratwurst Boy May 21, 09, 12:43 / #
Sokrates: Steinbach is quiet enough about her pro-nazi sympathies But you know about it nonetheless??? Interesting...now show me the evidence too please! waits Sokrates: No german point of view that attempts to rewrite history, For some Poles it's one and the same Sokrates. See what I mean? Presenting it from the german point of view IS for them rewriting history...naturally...there mustn't be german stories to tell, there must'n be german victims, nothing the allies did was wrong...there never has been any war crimes or crimes against humanity against Germans...no no...must'n be!!! Sokrates: anti-polish pro nazi woman Evidence? Sokrates: you Germans are traumatized by WW2 unable to deal with the full weight of what you did, i can even deal with you slightly rewriting history for yourselves to sleep well at night but not under the banner of anti-polish and pro-nazi sympathies. Being not talking about OUR stories for so long was wrong and traumatizing, you are right. But that is changing big time! :) Grzegorz_: I doubt the real number was even 1/10th of that. Who cares what you think or doubt Dog! That's also the point of the center...you aren't asked, you would be lying anyhow!

freebirdThreads: 3 Posts: 638 Joined: Jun 8, 07	May 21, 09, 12:47 / #
Sokrates: slightly rewriting history ain't that what you guys are doing too, or is it like this, the truth is only what we're saying?

SalomonThreads: 6 Posts: 602 Joined: Apr 7, 09	Edited by: Salomon May 21, 09, 12:47 / #
Bratwurst Boy: I don't see what a polish led EU-alliance could do about it? Explain please... You push propaganda projects ... which are wrong. You start to bother your neighbours... Don't be surprised when such cloalition will push project you don't like and which is very wrong using its strenght. Steibach is the best face for this project... expeled from house which has been stolen by her father.

Bratwurst BoyThreads: 11 Posts: 14,563 Joined: Apr 2, 07	Edited by: Bratwurst Boy May 21, 09, 12:49 / #
Salomon: Don't be surprised when such cloalition will push project you don't like. yawns You are repeating yourself here Luki...everybody knows you are reverting to your revenge fantasies again...join the reality! Okay...to prevent you from being worried to much I promise herewith to NOT to be surprised when that happens! Happy now?

SokratesThreads: 19 Posts: 4,464 Joined: Jan 19, 09 [Suspended]	May 21, 09, 12:56 / #
Bratwurst Boy: For some Poles it's one and the same Sokrates. See what I mean? I'm not some Poles and you should know by now i'm pretty objective with Germany in question. Der Spiegels article from August 2006 is the easiest for you to check, the article in English titled "We're out of assets". "For 200 members of the Exiled more than 1/3 were members of NSDAP..." "...status of an exiled is given to anyone who was expelled from both Poland and Western Germany, even soldiers of the invading army temporarily occupying the locations such as SS officers, the status is hereditary...". 1/3 of her organization is made up of former Nazis, there's a significant number of SS people there too, second president of the exiled Hans Kruger was issuing death sentences in Poland, all vice-presidents and 2 of the presidents had nazi past, a few of them took active part in mass murderers of Poles or Jews, Steinbach herself is not exiled but came to Poland with her father who was a Luftwaffe technician during the war. And you ask why do we oppose such lies and anti-polish issues? Thats not an objective organization, its a bunch of old nazis and their kids trying to rewrite history and you write "Erica Steinbach for chancellor!".

freebirdThreads: 3 Posts: 638 Joined: Jun 8, 07	May 21, 09, 13:00 / #
Sokrates: "For 200 members of the Exiled more than 1/3 were members of NSDAP..." and how many Poles were members of PZPR? Did they join it because of sympathy or advantages they had of that membership?

Bratwurst BoyThreads: 11 Posts: 14,563 Joined: Apr 2, 07	Edited by: Bratwurst Boy May 21, 09, 13:01 / #
Sokrates: And you ask why do we oppose such lies and anti-polish issues? Thats not an objective organization, its a bunch of old nazis and their kids trying to rewrite history and you write "Erica Steinbach for chancellor!". What lies? The 12 Million are a fact! And they were at the point of the gun expelled with the choices to either get shot or starved to death! That's also a fact! That's more than other countries have citizens... What do you mean with "objective organization" in this context??? They support the victims of the forced expulsions, no of course they aren't "objective"! Okay...what would you propose instead? Oh and I still have not seen your evidence for Steinbach-the neo nazi! (I've seen her in two longer live talks and she impressed me really)

SalomonThreads: 6 Posts: 602 Joined: Apr 7, 09	Edited by: Salomon May 21, 09, 13:01 / #
Oh well now we are seing new "old" German face. I'll tell you that they are going to push many other such initiatives and Europe should send them sign ...

HarryThreads: 62 Posts: 8,508 Joined: May 2, 07 [Suspended]	May 21, 09, 13:02 / #
Sokrates: she was against Poland in NATO, against Poland in EU, she has extensive ties with extreme right She sounds very much like a couple of Polish men who used to be be cabinet ministers in the previous Polish government. And she sounds exactly like the current head of Polish state TV. Why is it not OK for somebody like that to run a single museum but it is OK for them to run a national broadcaster which enters the homes of 38 million people? Grzegorz_: That's a number "calculated" by "the union of expelled" in 50's. They took It out of their dirty asses to promote their "victimhood". You're lying yet again. Bratwurst Boy: But you know about it nonetheless??? Interesting...now show me too please! waits You'll be waiting a long long time. Either that or Sokrates will claim that he phoned her and asked her and she told him that she is a neo-nazi.

SokratesThreads: 19 Posts: 4,464 Joined: Jan 19, 09 [Suspended]	Edited by: Sokrates May 21, 09, 13:02 / #
freebird: and how many Poles were members of PZPR? Are you an idiot? Wait dont respond you are an incredible idiot, you're comparing a post war communist party with an organization that had Nazis in it? Many of whom were murdering civilians during the war? freebird: Did they join it because of sympathy or advantages they had of that membership? Members of Steinbachs little cult were active nazis, there was even a guy accused of being a member of einsatzgruppen, at least a few were proven to give out death sentences in revenge executions, and you did not 'have' NSDAP membership like you did PZPR. Bratwurst Boy: Oh and I still have not seen your evidence for Steinbach-the neo nazi! I gave you evidence BB, Spiegels article, title, month, you want others in english and polish? She runs an organization filled to the brim with former nazis, some of whom have taken part in civilian executions, how is that not nazi sympathizing? I understand you want to rewrite history but what you're doing now is insolent, there's people in her organisation who shot civilians, there's people who served in SS, they make up 30% of all her members (or did many died off) and you claim she's not nazi? What is she then, collecting former nazis for fun? Out of pity?

Bratwurst BoyThreads: 11 Posts: 14,563 Joined: Apr 2, 07	Edited by: Bratwurst Boy May 21, 09, 13:03 / #
Salomon: If it is face of heart of Europe ... Oooooch...is poor little Luki scared by big bad neighbours again...oooch....should I look under your bed for monsters again, yes? :( Sokrates: I gave you evidence BB, What evidence??? Evidence that Steinbach is a Neo-Nazi???? Cut the crap Sokrates! Sokrates: She runs an organization filled to the brim with former nazis, some of whom have taken part in civilian executions, how is that not nazi sympathizing? As you said in another thread so nice, that is now nearly 65 years back and there are barely any Nazis left who are still able to walk. You can call the organization neo-nazi all you want if you think it helps your position but it doesn't make it more true.

SalomonThreads: 6 Posts: 602 Joined: Apr 7, 09	Edited by: Salomon May 21, 09, 13:07 / #
Bratwurst Boy: Oooooch...is poor little Luki scared by big bad neighbours again...oooch....should I look under your bed for monsters again, yes? :( Don't try to use such arguments. It is fact ... times when in Europe small or biger country were taken seriously are over. It is good that Europe after enlargment doesn't have to listen Germans in everything and will of others in EU can be implemented without the Germans ... If Germans will continue their policy of bothering neighbours ... other should send them sign that they are not alone in europe.

Bratwurst BoyThreads: 11 Posts: 14,563 Joined: Apr 2, 07	Edited by: Bratwurst Boy May 21, 09, 13:10 / #
Salomon: If Germans will continue their policy of bothering neighbours ... other should send them sign that they are not alone in europe. Yeah...can't wait! :) Salomon: will of others in EU can be implemented without the Germans ROFL...why don't you try it for once??? But having a big mouth with only hot air behind is more the "polish way", isn't it.