History of the crime ; Bandera, UPA and Podole Polish land.

Mr Grunwald:

Poles didn't co operate fully with thoose 3 to make an co-operative state in the first place. The ukies wanted it, then changed their views. If someone wants right sin a country someone should deserve it. As an example the Tzar gave many rights to the Poles but as they rebelled he took them away.

Or you think give away rights to someone who just fought against you and would been happy to have you destroyed? You really have a twisted logic

IronsideThreads: 59 Posts: 6,778 Joined: Feb 26, 09	Nov 20, 09, 14:01 / #
On the subject I have found some documentary.

rjedenThreads: 1 Posts: 30 Joined: Feb 10, 08	Nov 20, 09, 20:09 / #
Thank you for this. Ukrainian cruelty exceeded german crimes

vetalaThreads: - Posts: 512 Joined: Jul 10, 09	Nov 21, 09, 13:33 / #
Nothing justifies murder but we should've known better than to oppress them.

1jolaThreads: 33 Posts: 2,737 Joined: Sep 23, 08	Edited by: 1jola Nov 21, 09, 13:46 / #
vetala: Nothing justifies murder but we should've known better than to oppress them. The Soviets freed them from Polish oppression in 1939.

IronsideThreads: 59 Posts: 6,778 Joined: Feb 26, 09	Nov 21, 09, 15:46 / #
vetala: Nothing justifies murder but we should've known better than to oppress them. What are you talking about?

MareGaeaThreads: 45 Posts: 5,527 Joined: Feb 6, 08	Nov 21, 09, 17:42 / #
Ironside Can you post part 2 and 3 as well? Thanks, it's very interesting. >^..^< M-G (kinda hungover)

IronsideThreads: 59 Posts: 6,778 Joined: Feb 26, 09	Nov 21, 09, 20:48 / #
there you are : http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Fltj7PFuSgE and part III: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-_yuDG4SPFo

MareGaeaThreads: 45 Posts: 5,527 Joined: Feb 6, 08	Nov 21, 09, 23:32 / #
Thanks. Good that it's subtitled in English :) >^..^< M-G (has a new tune with a new sound - a bit more groovy)

Mr GrunwaldThreads: 34 Posts: 2,358 Joined: Dec 16, 08	Nov 27, 09, 02:20 / #
vetala: Nothing justifies murder but we should've known better than to oppress them. They asked for it by themselfs. If they had continued to fight along Poles like in one of the uprisings I clearly doubt that they would been opressed.

vetalaThreads: - Posts: 512 Joined: Jul 10, 09	Nov 27, 09, 10:46 / #
Grunwald Is this so? Then I suppose it means that Poles deserved to be oppressed for making those uprisings in the first place. If they were loyal to Russians, Germans and Austrians then they wouldn't have been oppressed.

IronsideThreads: 59 Posts: 6,778 Joined: Feb 26, 09	Nov 29, 09, 00:37 / #
vetala: I'm only pointing out that it is NOT surprising that Ukrainians had a grudge against us and this fact is also very sad. Really? what would that be ? Would you said the same thing about Germans and Jews ? I-S (phew!)

TorqThreads: 65 Posts: 4,024 Joined: Apr 10, 09 MEMBER	Edited by: Torq Nov 29, 09, 09:29 / #
Any kind of fighting between Poles and Ukrainians in the past should never be considered anything else than a civil war. Foreign influence and also bad politics towards our eastern territories led to unspeakable horrors for civilians and the wall of hatred was built between essentialy the same people, members of the great Rzeczpospolita who lived together and on many occasions fought together (like under Vienna, for example, where Sobieski's Cossack units fought with valor and bravery).

IronsideThreads: 59 Posts: 6,778 Joined: Feb 26, 09	Nov 30, 09, 00:46 / #
vetala: Germans - no. Germans in Poland were treated just the same if not better than Poles in Germany. you misunderstood me. I mean would you said that German had a right to have grudge against Jews? For me above statement is logical conclusion of your ridiculous statement in contexts of Ukrainians and Poles. Its so stupid that I lack vocabulary to describe it and don't want resort to invectives. Would you consider some time off to think about what you said, and I mean really think!!! I-S (GEE!)

Bratwurst BoyThreads: 11 Posts: 14,563 Joined: Apr 2, 07	Nov 30, 09, 00:54 / #
vetala: Germans in Poland were treated just the same if not better than Poles in Germany. snicker

1jolaThreads: 33 Posts: 2,737 Joined: Sep 23, 08	Nov 27, 09, 11:48 / #
vetala You should probably watch the film. No one guilty of mass murder though as they were not Jews. The focus is Holocaust and Demjaniuk.

vetalaThreads: - Posts: 512 Joined: Jul 10, 09	Edited by: vetala Nov 27, 09, 13:14 / #
I watched the film. It's very sad and it's even more sad that the perpetrators weren't brought to justice. I'm only pointing out that it is NOT surprising that Ukrainians had a grudge against us and this fact is also very sad.

vetalaThreads: - Posts: 512 Joined: Jul 10, 09	Nov 29, 09, 08:51 / #
Germans - no. Germans in Poland were treated just the same if not better than Poles in Germany. Jews - yes. I'm not happy about this and I think it's often exaggerated, but interwar Poland was a VERY antisemitic state, so they certainly had the right to have a grudge.

Mr GrunwaldThreads: 34 Posts: 2,358 Joined: Dec 16, 08	Nov 30, 09, 03:59 / #
vetala: Is this so? Then I suppose it means that Poles deserved to be oppressed for making those uprisings in the first place. Poles didn't co operate fully with thoose 3 to make an co-operative state in the first place. The ukies wanted it, then changed their views. If someone wants right sin a country someone should deserve it. As an example the Tzar gave many rights to the Poles but as they rebelled he took them away. Or you think give away rights to someone who just fought against you and would been happy to have you destroyed? You really have a twisted logic

NathanThreads: 33 Posts: 1,846 Joined: Feb 13, 09	Edited by: Nathan Nov 30, 09, 15:36 / #
Mr Grunwald: Poles didn't co operate fully with thoose 3 to make an co-operative state in the first place. The ukies wanted it, then changed their views. If someone wants right sin a country someone should deserve it. As an example the Tzar gave many rights to the Poles but as they rebelled he took them away. Or you think give away rights to someone who just fought against you and would been happy to have you destroyed? You really have a twisted logic What do you smoke, bro? ; ) Show me a treaty where Ukies wanted anything to do with you. But look simply at your logic: The ukies wanted it, then changed their views Ok, let's assume we wanted it (what a BS!:), so we should have had the rights the same as you, before we "changed our views" - correct? Yes. Then you say: Or you think give away rights to someone who just fought against you How can you give the rights (which according to you should have been there in the first place) to people (who are already in union with you wilfully with the same rights) and now fighting with you (what for?) and you claim that it is preposterous to give them the rights? How can you give again something that is already there? So either you lie (obvious!), or there was a treaty and one side didn't keep up to its promises. In 1569 there was Lublin Union between Lithuania and Poland. I see no Ukraine there and Ukies saying: "Yejjj!"

TorqThreads: 65 Posts: 4,024 Joined: Apr 10, 09 MEMBER	Nov 30, 09, 16:58 / #
Nathan: In 1569 there was Lublin Union between Lithuania and Poland. I see no Ukraine there and Ukies saying: "Yejjj!" I see no Kashubia there either, or Kashubians saying "Jo!". Ukraine was not an independent country then, so it would be quite impossible to sign a union with it, just as it would be equally nonsensical to sign a union with Kashubia :) Not to mention that Ukrainians are essentially Polish (even if they have their own language and customs, like Kashubians for example). So I ask again, Nathan - when will you embrace your Polishness, and forget all this "Oh-we-Ukrainians-are-a-different nation-than-Poles" nonsense???

Bratwurst BoyThreads: 11 Posts: 14,563 Joined: Apr 2, 07	Edited by: Bratwurst Boy Nov 30, 09, 17:04 / #
Kashubia? Do tell...was there ever one? Torq: Not to mention that Ukrainians are essentially Polish (even if they have their own language and customs, like Kashubians for example) Like with the Dutch and Austrians to the Germans? ....fascinating!

TorqThreads: 65 Posts: 4,024 Joined: Apr 10, 09 MEMBER	Edited by: Torq Nov 30, 09, 17:12 / #
Bratwurst Boy: Like with the Dutch and Austrians to the Germans? ....fascinating! Fuckinhell BB - you're ruining my wind-up attempt man! Don't interfere when two Poles (Nathan and I) are talking! It's a family matter!

Bratwurst BoyThreads: 11 Posts: 14,563 Joined: Apr 2, 07	Edited by: Bratwurst Boy Nov 30, 09, 17:18 / #
Torq: Fuckinhell BB - you're ruining my wind-up attempt man! 'msorry (But I really have no clue about these things) slinks back into corner

TorqThreads: 65 Posts: 4,024 Joined: Apr 10, 09 MEMBER	Nov 30, 09, 17:22 / #
Bratwurst Boy: 'msorry (But I really have no clue about that) You have no clue about Polnisch-Lituaisches Grossreich??? OK, that does it - next time I'm playing For The Glory, first thing I'm going to do will be annexing Prussia. That'll teach you to learn some history of your neighbours! ;)

Bratwurst BoyThreads: 11 Posts: 14,563 Joined: Apr 2, 07	Edited by: Bratwurst Boy Nov 30, 09, 17:24 / #
Torq: OK, that does it - next time I'm playing For The Glory, first thing I'm going to do will be annexing Prussia. That'll teach you to learn some history of your neighbours! ;) Okay....but since we plan to merge anyhow I think we could do without the annexing thingie, ja? ;) But really....lot's of eastern history is still a black hole for many of my compatriots...I find it interesting! :)

TorqThreads: 65 Posts: 4,024 Joined: Apr 10, 09 MEMBER	Nov 30, 09, 17:29 / #
Bratwurst Boy: Okay....but since we plan to merge anyhow I think we could do without the annexing thingie, ja? ;) Oh, yeah - I forgot about that, sorry! Bratwurst Boy: But really....lot's of eastern history is still a black hole for many of my compatriots...I find it interesting! :) If you have any questions, just ask me (without paying attention to what Nathan says, for example) and you'll be a history expert in no time! ;)

Bratwurst BoyThreads: 11 Posts: 14,563 Joined: Apr 2, 07	Nov 30, 09, 17:44 / #
Torq: If you have any questions, just ask me (without paying attention to what Nathan says, for example) and you'll be a history expert in no time! ;) I'm lurking all the time already...:)

TorqThreads: 65 Posts: 4,024 Joined: Apr 10, 09 MEMBER	Nov 30, 09, 17:53 / #
Bratwurst Boy: I'm lurking all the time already...:) Good for you, BB! I've noticed your willingness to learn, mein boy. If only you weren't so stubborn sometimes ;)

NathanThreads: 33 Posts: 1,846 Joined: Feb 13, 09	Nov 30, 09, 19:00 / #
Poles are always trying to expand, which leads eventually to contraction. This is called the 1st law of history. The bigger expansion, the more powerful contraction - like a heart and not only ;) You feel always lonely, inadequate, psychotic - why? You need somebody else to tell that you are worth something? Your power is based on the same principles as Russia - the bigger, the more powerful? Wouldn't it be better to invest into science and improve lives of millions instead of pretending there is any family link between us and show me doves with angels armed to their teeth? Bad boy, Torq.

TorqThreads: 65 Posts: 4,024 Joined: Apr 10, 09 MEMBER	Edited by: Torq Nov 30, 09, 20:32 / #
Nathan: instead of pretending there is any family link between us I can see that you still stick to that "I'm Ukrainian, not Polish" nonsense. Very well, Nathan, very well - in that case, I'm not Polish either - I'm a Pomeranian. *ROLLS EYES*