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History of the crime ; Bandera, UPA and Podole Polish land.


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southernThreads: 116
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Joined: May 17, 07 		  Dec 12, 09, 09:20 /  #
Really Ukrainians east of Kiev and in Crimea do feel Russians.And in Dnipro and Donetsk they don't even speak Ukrainian.It was funny when the e
bassy gave them papers to complete in Ukrainian and they could not understand what was written on them.
BorrkaThreads: 49
Posts: 770
Joined: Apr 25, 08 		  Dec 12, 09, 13:46 /  #
southern:
Really Ukrainians east of Kiev and in Crimea do feel Russians.

Not true at all.
There are about 19 - 20% ethnic Russians living in Ukraine and I do believe they feel Russians.
Why shouldn't they ?

Many Ukrainians are Russian speaking or bilingual and except for some "sovoks" they are quite patriotic in sens of Ukrainian patriotism.
Using the language doesn't make them Russians.
You can see the same situation in Ireland, Finland., South-America etc.
SeanusThreads: 22
Posts: 30,158
Joined: Dec 25, 07 		  Dec 12, 09, 13:51 /  #
I've heard the same as southern says, Borrka. An ex of my friend is from the eastern part of Ukraine and she said that many people speak Russian and have Russian empathy there. Quite far east of Kiev I'd say.
southernThreads: 116
Posts: 10,949
Joined: May 17, 07 		Edited by: southern   Dec 12, 09, 14:31 /  #
Go to a place like Dnipropetrovsk and you will understand why the whole Ukrainian thing is a comedy.The most extreme was what a taxi driver in Kiev told me:We,Ukrainians are the real Russians".End of comments.

Or when I asked a Belarus girl to explain me the difference between Russians and Belarus and she told me we are also Russians but white Russians.I cannot explain you the difference."
SeanusThreads: 22
Posts: 30,158
Joined: Dec 25, 07 		  Dec 12, 09, 14:33 /  #
Donetsk too. They really do feel Russian. To me, they have much more in common in Russia than with Poland.
southernThreads: 116
Posts: 10,949
Joined: May 17, 07 		Edited by: southern   Dec 12, 09, 14:38 /  #
Yes,only in the West they insist all the time on their Ukrainian heritage.Even there they mostly watch Russian TV and regard anything Russian as superior.My opinion I'd that they are afraid of Poles at least they seem so.Poles play the bosses there.

And mind you if they perceive you as an Ukrainian you will get a very low treatment by authorities in Poland we talk here about a very humiliating experience which you will never live as an English person.
SeanusThreads: 22
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Joined: Dec 25, 07 		  Dec 12, 09, 14:40 /  #
Afraid of Poles? Ukrainians are tough cookies, I don't think fear is utmost in their vocabulary.
southernThreads: 116
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Joined: May 17, 07 		Edited by: southern   Dec 12, 09, 14:41 /  #
They are afraid of Poliaki.Like there are still some unpaid bills.
SeanusThreads: 22
Posts: 30,158
Joined: Dec 25, 07 		  Dec 12, 09, 14:44 /  #
It works both ways. Some Poles are afraid of them too for past actions. On an intergovernmental level, they both have nothing to fear.
southernThreads: 116
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Joined: May 17, 07 		Edited by: southern   Dec 12, 09, 14:56 /  #
Some Ukrainians are really afraid.They usually keep silent about that but they don't like seeing Poles checking Lvov.There is also a heavy UPA support and there was a heavy clash one year ago between former UPA members and red army soldiers.People over 70 years old started beating each other to bleed till police intervened and dissolved them.
SeanusThreads: 22
Posts: 30,158
Joined: Dec 25, 07 		  Dec 12, 09, 15:23 /  #
You will always find such people, southern. They lived through hard times and keep their memories. It's understandable.
BorrkaThreads: 49
Posts: 770
Joined: Apr 25, 08 		Edited by: Borrka   Dec 12, 09, 15:33 /  #
Seanus:
many people speak Russian and have Russian empathy there.

But how it makes them Russian ?

I used to travel for business all over Ukraine.
From East to West.
And have met three categories of people living there: Ukrainians, Russians and Sovoks.

To be Ukrainian does not mean to be anti-Russian.
What I saw was rather kind of a "critical" sympathy.

As for cultural influences:
I love Russian culture but am I Russian ?
Hardly.

I know a Lviv born girl from Kiev.
She is slightly nationalistic type but prefers to speak ... Russian !
Once I asked her
"Why ? I know you are fluent in both languages."
She didn't know lol.

So don't look for simple answers.
It's possible to be Russian speaking patriot of independent Ukraine.lol.

PS. Sovoks (sovki) are post-Soviet fosiles free of any national feelings.
southernThreads: 116
Posts: 10,949
Joined: May 17, 07 		  Dec 12, 09, 15:35 /  #
It was funny when an ukr woman told me her suprise and scare when she saw a street in Lvov called Bandera ulice."Bandera?WTF?He was a criminal.They have here Bandera ulice?How is it possible?"Because in communist times they were indocrinated that UPA were criminals.But now in Lvov they are more like national heroes.
NathanThreads: 33
Posts: 1,846
Joined: Feb 13, 09 		Edited by: Nathan   Dec 13, 09, 01:48 /  #
southern:
The most extreme was what a taxi driver in Kiev told me:We,Ukrainians are the real Russians".End of comments.

From post #94 (this thread)

southern:
The maximum of absurdity was a taxi driver in Lvov trying to persuade me that the real Russians are the Ukrainians!So much for the differences.

From post #23 (in "Poland is the most friendly neighbor of Ukraine and Russia - Ukrainian poll by Borrka)

I usually don't reply to the scum and I am not going to do it now, but for the rest of PF members who hadn't still realized what southern is - a simple example of lying piece of sh*t.
The most interesting part is that 2 posts were written 45 days!!! apart and they sound as a memorized phrase from the first to the last word, except for the cities ;)
SeanusThreads: 22
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Joined: Dec 25, 07 		  Dec 13, 09, 10:50 /  #
So it's not true then? ;) ;)
southernThreads: 116
Posts: 10,949
Joined: May 17, 07 		Edited by: southern   Dec 13, 09, 11:41 /  #
I don't remember if he was in Lvov or in Kiev.Most likely he was in Lvov.But then why would he talk to me about Russians?In Lvov they speak ukrainian.
Anyway I am not aware what benefits do Ukrainians draw from their independance but the whole issue is highly problematic.
BorrkaThreads: 49
Posts: 770
Joined: Apr 25, 08 		  Dec 13, 09, 12:03 /  #
Seanus:
So it's not true then? ;) ;)

It's probably all about the language.
My guess is the taxi drivers tried to explain that it's Ukraine being the true heir of Kievian Rus' - it's a common opinion among Ukrainians on the contrary to Russians lol.

It's pretty hard to express those nuances in English or any other language.
Mostly, people who don't have enough "feeling" for East-Slavonic languages will get the message wrong.

The best example is this Polish one:
Russkie pierogi does not mean Russian pierogi.
It means Ukrainian pierogi in slightly archaic Polish.
southernThreads: 116
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Joined: May 17, 07 		  Dec 13, 09, 12:25 /  #
If Ukrainians feel ukrainians,let them be ukrainians.
SeanusThreads: 22
Posts: 30,158
Joined: Dec 25, 07 		  Dec 13, 09, 18:47 /  #
I didn't say it made them Russian, Borrka, just that they have leanings perhaps from a lack of identity. The Ukrainian girl spoke Russian in Poland. Why not speak Ukrainian as young Poles have about as much chance as understanding that as Russian, wouldn't you say?
southernThreads: 116
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Joined: May 17, 07 		  Dec 13, 09, 18:52 /  #
Ukrainian nationalism makes sense in west Ukraine,in the rest it does not make sense in my opinion.In Dnipro central square there is still the statue of Breznhev,so what are we talking about?
SeanusThreads: 22
Posts: 30,158
Joined: Dec 25, 07 		  Dec 13, 09, 19:39 /  #
Statues are not meant to be toppled as they are remnants of history, symbols of the way it was. The only exceptions are the likes of Saddam Hussein, whose statue was hauled down by haters of his oppressive regime and with good reason.
BorrkaThreads: 49
Posts: 770
Joined: Apr 25, 08 		  Dec 14, 09, 11:15 /  #
Seanus:
The Ukrainian girl spoke Russian in Poland.

No, it was in Kiev.
I just want to stress the language is not the most important factor of the national identity in Ukraine.
One can speak Ukrainian, Russian or some surhzyk and still be a devoted Ukrainian patriot.
It's 'sovok" who suffers a lack of identity.

What I said above does not mean they have exactly the same political views.

I remember my discussion with some young people in Odessa which is part Ukrainian, part Russian with lot of Jewish color so you can imagine their different opinions.
But all of the sudden they had no doubts:
Ukraine should go for the full EU-membership.
SeanusThreads: 22
Posts: 30,158
Joined: Dec 25, 07 		  Dec 14, 09, 11:28 /  #
No no, I was saying that my friend's ex was from the eastern part of Ukraine. She spoke Russian to the Poles until she got enough confidence to use some Polish.

Why should Ukraine join the EU, Borrka? Rather the EU than NATO for sure. Ukraine in NATO would spark future conflict no doubt.
BorrkaThreads: 49
Posts: 770
Joined: Apr 25, 08 		Edited by: Borrka   Dec 14, 09, 12:16 /  #
Seanus:
She spoke Russian to the Poles

I can imagine many different reasons for that.
First ... maybe she doesn't speak Ukrainian or some local surzyk only ?

Then, many people in the post-Soviet republics still believe Russian is a kind of lingua franca in the East-European region .
At least many Poles used to learn it at school.
Not quite successful I have to admit but given some basic school level knowledge, Russian can be easier to understand for Poles than Ukrainian language.

Seanus:
Why should Ukraine join the EU, Borrka?

Only because they want it and frankly, I am even not sure they realize how long is the way to go..
1989 we didn't either.
It's not only about economy.
It's mentality as well.
Many has changed in Poland but look at the political mess here !
SeanusThreads: 22
Posts: 30,158
Joined: Dec 25, 07 		  Dec 14, 09, 12:24 /  #
She is Ukrainian, Borrka. I can safely say that she speaks it fluently. Many Poles from the older generation, yes, with the younger generation it is a matter of choice.

It depends, really. They play in European competitions and engage in bilateral agreements already. It could lead to a heated employment issue were swathes of them to go to the UK.
SokratesThreads: 19
Posts: 4,464
Joined: Jan 19, 09 [Suspended]		 Edited by: Sokrates   Dec 14, 09, 13:29 /  #
Seanus:
Why should Ukraine join the EU, Borrka? Rather the EU than NATO for sure. Ukraine in NATO would spark future conflict no doubt.

Again your epic lack of awareness, lets rephrase that, is conflict with Russia (not necceseraly armed) avoidable at all?
southern:
If Ukrainians feel ukrainians,let them be ukrainians.

No, they're confused Poles, we need to help them up by invading them and killing them all (starting with Nathan).
SeanusThreads: 22
Posts: 30,158
Joined: Dec 25, 07 		  Dec 14, 09, 13:45 /  #
Well, your lovely French partners in the EU are gonna sell them a state-of-the-art warship so why don't you ask that snake, Sarkozy?

You are treating Ukraine as a pawn and that's just not right. I was asking Borrka about the viability of accession from his perspective. If they want protection, NATO is the option for them and not the EU. YOU don't get it, Sok. Tell me, what do you know of Timoshenko in relation to Russia?
SokratesThreads: 19
Posts: 4,464
Joined: Jan 19, 09 [Suspended]		   Dec 14, 09, 14:15 /  #
Seanus:
Well, your lovely French partners in the EU are gonna sell them a state-of-the-art warship so why don't you ask that snake, Sarkozy?

I gave my opinion about EU being a failed experiment on principle of particular interests long ago, also i have my doubts whether Russians can afford such ships.

Seanus:
You are treating Ukraine as a pawn and that's just not right.

How should i treat them then?
Seanus:
If they want protection, NATO is the option for them and not the EU.

Ah but EU is, if it wont fail that is, bound to become a military pact as well, and much more stable then NATO, the primary military force of NATO is that of US, if United States and Europe will sour their relationship in the future NATO loses its importance, for Ukraine EU is the best long term invesment, then there's economical benefits.

Seanus:
YOU don't get it, Sok. Tell me, what do you know of Timoshenko in relation to Russia?

She's trying to build her position on appeasing Russia, she offers concessions for which she gets domestic support from the russian and communist electorates and various benefits from Russia.

She is not however representative of Ukraine as a state or a nation, the major sentiment in Ukraine is that they want to become Polish serfs again, just ask Nathan he's itching to become a servant :)))
SeanusThreads: 22
Posts: 30,158
Joined: Dec 25, 07 		  Dec 14, 09, 14:24 /  #
Well, there is a perceived need in Russia for such kind of ships. It's an expensive way to cut their response time (26 hours to 40 mins) but may be a calculated gamble.

You could start by doing a viability assessment of sorts, seeing it from their eyes.

A military pact? Geez, this isn't Warhammer! Just look at how the EU reacted to the Russo-Georgian conflict. Sending Sarkozy as a peacebroker to Russia was how they handled it, NOT militarily. You are dreaming again, with those grandiose romantic delusions of yours. Economic gain, is that all you care about?

Polish serfs again? I don't see what you envisage here at all.
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