What if scenario´s for WW2 and Poland

Norman:

At the moment im reading 'The rise and fall of communism' by Archie Brown (prof at Oxford in history of the communist era) He has some explanations about the invasion of Russia in Poland. When communists came to power a few decades long they wanted to make the inhabitants believe that actually Russia did good job protecting the Poles from Nazi-Germany

NormanThreads: 2 Posts: 11 Joined: Dec 21, 09	Dec 23, 09, 18:50 / #
What if....Germans would have won the war.... (see old thread Auschwitz sign stolen) An assumption could be that Poles would have been moved to the East or work as servants in the GG (General Gouvernement) district, with young Polish kids sended to germany to be re educated (especially blond haired Poles with blue eyes) and shaped as a new German. At the moment im reading 'The rise and fall of communism' by Archie Brown (prof at Oxford in history of the communist era) He has some explanations about the invasion of Russia in Poland. When communists came to power a few decades long they wanted to make the inhabitants believe that actually Russia did good job protecting the Poles from Nazi-Germany The facts of Katyn were known by British government immediately but kept secret to keep uncle Joe as force against Nazi´s. Attacking Germany was the decision probably that made Germany loose the war. Because if all these forces could be used to overthrow England it might be a division between Hitler Europe and Stalin Europe with united States still as a powerful block but not necessarily interested in Europe

Wroclaw BoyThreads: 57 Posts: 5,468 Joined: Jul 3, 09 MEMBER	Dec 23, 09, 19:11 / #
Norman: Because if all these forces could be used to overthrow England it might be a division between Hitler Europe and Stalin Europe with united States still as a powerful block but not necessarily interested in Europe There would have been alliances alright but I think Great Britian and its empire with Germany against Russia. Germany and Russia against England? - no way. Hitlers hate of the bolshevic world is well publicised, he admired Britian and all its achievements and considered Brits blood brothers, why do you think he was inconsolable after Chamberlain declared war on Germany?

NormanThreads: 2 Posts: 11 Joined: Dec 21, 09	Dec 23, 09, 19:41 / #
Winston churchill deeply distrusted Stalin and he was very much against communism. England was not free from nationalism and fascist elements in their society, they would have joined forces against Russia yes with British Empire intact and still ruling the world, a less big role for the US and Western Europe under influence of fascist Italy and Germany, The Germans would have been stopped at the Weichsel, Poles Germans and English have found peace with Russia. Russia if they would not have won the war in the Far east (against Japan) would not have had so many troops to fight Hitler, US would have helped Japan against Russia in Far East and Russia attacked on two fronts forced to sign peace and not have been that powrful nation they became in 50´s. Would the world have been a better world? We would not have heard about concentration camps and the majority would have disliked Jews and not given them the role of martyrs they have now. Strange to think about alternative scenario´s What if. The world of 2010 was still very much determined by what actually did happen

PlasticPoleThreads: 10 Posts: 5,429 Joined: May 28, 09	Dec 23, 09, 19:43 / #
Refer to ww i.

vetalaThreads: - Posts: 512 Joined: Jul 10, 09	Edited by: vetala Dec 23, 09, 20:20 / #
Norman: An assumption could be that Poles would have been moved to the East or work as servants in the GG (General Gouvernement) district, with young Polish kids sended to germany to be re educated How optimistic of you. "Unfortunately, a policy towards Poland, whereby the East was to be Germanized, was demanded by many and was based on the same false reasoning. Here again it was believed that the Polish people could be Germanized by being compelled to use the German language. The result would have been fatal. A people of foreign race would have had to use the German language to express modes of thought that were foreign to the German, thus compromising by its own inferiority the dignity and nobility of our nation. It is revolting to think how much damage is indirectly done to German prestige today through the fact that the German patois of the Jews when they enter the United States enables them to be classed as Germans, because many Americans are quite ignorant of German conditions. Among us, nobody would think of taking these unhygienic immigrants from the East for members of the German race and nation merely because they mostly speak German." Adolf Hitler's words (on the subject of Germanization of Poles during the time when Poland was partitioned) Hitler would never accept 're-educating' 30 million Poles not to mention the fact that lots of German rulers tried to do that before and failed. Even if the Nazis were willing to try, it wouldn't have been successful - there were simply too many Poles. A nation of 30 million can't be easily kept in check and certainly won't willingly give up their children. Nazis also sucked at expulsions. They weren't even able to resettle 100.000 Poles from one area (Zamość) without sending most of them to concentration camps. And if they'd won, then Poles wouldn't have been the only Slavic nation under their control. I highly doubt that Hitler would want 100 million Slavic brats running around Germany. The whole POINT of 'racial hygiene' was to PREVENT foreign blood from polluting precious German blood. So, sooner or later the Nazis would have been forced to try physically reducing the number of Poles through the means of mass murder but that, too, would have failed. It's simply impossible to exterminate a whole nation of 30 milion without anyone noticing or resisting. Eventually, Hitler would've been forced to tolerate the Poles, but the relations would remain awkward and hostile.

NormanThreads: 2 Posts: 11 Joined: Dec 21, 09	Dec 23, 09, 20:35 / #
Vetala, I do agree with U, maybe it is all to hypothetically and Poles would never have given up. Unlike Czech they resisted in 1939 and that is why WW2 started officially, if they wanted to collaborate against Soviets they could have done that in summer of 1939 already, and became a satellite of germans just like czechs (in 1939) Czech hardly had resistance not even partisans. Poland had and have stronger identity.

vetalaThreads: - Posts: 512 Joined: Jul 10, 09	Dec 23, 09, 20:43 / #
Maybe, but we need to remember that Czechs were a small nation, it would be very difficult for them to resist. And yet they managed to kill a very important Nazi official (Reinhard Heydrich), quite impressive^^

Bratwurst BoyThreads: 11 Posts: 14,563 Joined: Apr 2, 07	Edited by: Bratwurst Boy Dec 23, 09, 20:47 / #
vetala: Maybe, but we need to remember that Czechs were a small nation, it would be very difficult for them to resist. The treaty of Versailles gave them the Sudetenlands....a decision much regretted soon by alot of international politicians. Many thoughts the Germans had a right to decide for themselves where they want to belong to and nobody wanted seriously go to war for such a bad cause. Hence the Czechs stood on weak legs from the beginning - and without the natural defense of the mountains the country was open for taking, not wholly their fault. vetala: And yet they managed to kill a very important Nazi official (Reinhard Heydrich), quite impressive^^ It was Heidrichs arrogance to drive in an open merc cabrio every morning at the same time the same route what killed him in the end. It was a sign of power for him, not needing to hide in the occupied country, having the Czechs all firmly under his boots....and his assasinators had to be trained and flown in from GB, so he was right in a way.

vetalaThreads: - Posts: 512 Joined: Jul 10, 09	Dec 23, 09, 20:52 / #
Bratwurst Boy: It was Heidrichs arrogance to drive in an open merc cabrio every morning at the same time the same route what killed him in the end. Holy Fvck, what a prick. He deserved what he got.

Bratwurst BoyThreads: 11 Posts: 14,563 Joined: Apr 2, 07	Edited by: Bratwurst Boy Dec 23, 09, 20:53 / #
vetala: .... He deserved what he got. For the price of Lidice? The Brits obviously thought so... vetala: Holy Fvck, what a prick.... A fascinating prick at that! His biography is highly recommendable! :) amazon.com/HEYDRICH-Face-Evil-Mario-Dederichs/dp/1935149121/ref=sr_1_1 ?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1261598195&sr=8-1

TorqThreads: 65 Posts: 4,024 Joined: Apr 10, 09 MEMBER	Edited by: Torq Dec 23, 09, 21:19 / #
Bratwurst Boy: (What is a "coprofag"?) A person who enjoys eating his own sh*ite (allegedly, that's how Nietzsche eventually end up and I've read somewhere that Hitler liked that stuff too :)). Bratwurst Boy: It seems the world is still very much fascinated by all this! ;) That's true. That is why memoirs of mass murderers or cannibals are usually bestsellers.

southernThreads: 116 Posts: 10,949 Joined: May 17, 07	Dec 23, 09, 21:24 / #
Torq: in reading a biography of some famous coprofag Another Veronika Moser fan? Heindrich was executed by english order because he managed to raise the living standards in the Protektorat.

TorqThreads: 65 Posts: 4,024 Joined: Apr 10, 09 MEMBER	Edited by: Torq Dec 23, 09, 21:29 / #
southern: Another Veronika Moser fan? Looks like a perfect girl for Heidrich - too bad the two never met :) southern: Heindrich was executed by english order because he managed to raise the living standards in the Protektorat. Yes, he was executed for raising money for charity and helping homeless children. That's why in revenge for killing such a saint (who was called "Archangel of Evil" only by judeo-masonic calumniators) the villages of Lidice and Lezaki were razed to the ground :) Bratwurst Boy: People are just sick, aren't they...;) Some of them certainly are :)

southernThreads: 116 Posts: 10,949 Joined: May 17, 07	Dec 23, 09, 21:33 / #
Heindrich was not particularly popular in the nazi environment especially among the old prussian military men.

vetalaThreads: - Posts: 512 Joined: Jul 10, 09	Edited by: vetala Dec 23, 09, 21:03 / #
Bratwurst Boy: His biography is highly recommendable! :) I'm reading about him right now. It seems to me that his hatred of Jews might have been influenced by rumours of his Jewish ancestry. A personal vengeance?

Bratwurst BoyThreads: 11 Posts: 14,563 Joined: Apr 2, 07	Edited by: Bratwurst Boy Dec 23, 09, 21:08 / #
vetala: I'm reading about him right now. It seems to me that his hatred of Jews might have been influenced by rumours of his Jewish ancestry. A personal vengeance? In his biography it is mentioned that he got even mocked about such rumours far back in his school days...it must have been horrible for him. Now historians and scientists agree that it was just that, malicious rumours to get a hold on an otherwise highly capable, talented, extremely intelligent rival. And it worked...it became a kind of obsession by him to proof everybody his "non-jewishness". But his nature made him that way to fulfill ANY order to the best of his capabilities...so "bad luck" had it that Hitler pitched him against the Jews...it could have been any other group and he would have been likewise efficient and successful.

TorqThreads: 65 Posts: 4,024 Joined: Apr 10, 09 MEMBER	Edited by: Torq Dec 23, 09, 21:10 / #
Bratwurst Boy: A fascinating prick at that! Fascinating? Well, I guess some people find criminals and mass murderers fascinating, but that's sick if you ask me. Bratwurst Boy: His biography is highly recommendable! :) What's the point? I might as well read a biography of some paedophile or a coprofag. Then again, some people probably find paedophiles and coprofags fascinating too :) Oh, well - each to their own, I guess :)

Bratwurst BoyThreads: 11 Posts: 14,563 Joined: Apr 2, 07	Edited by: Bratwurst Boy Dec 23, 09, 21:11 / #
Torq I don't get your point...

TorqThreads: 65 Posts: 4,024 Joined: Apr 10, 09 MEMBER	Edited by: Torq Dec 23, 09, 21:14 / #
Bratwurst Boy: I don't get your point? My point is that I'm equally interested in reading a biography of such a sickfu*ck as Heidrich was, as I would be in reading a biography of some famous coprofag or paedophile. But as I said - each to their own :)

Bratwurst BoyThreads: 11 Posts: 14,563 Joined: Apr 2, 07	Edited by: Bratwurst Boy Dec 23, 09, 21:16 / #
Torq: My point is that I'm euqally interested in reading a biography of such a sickfu*ck as Heidrich was, as I would be in reading a biography of some famous coprofag or paedophile. Well...as long as you don't draw conclusions from your own preferences to other people it's fine by me and nobody forces you...:) Fact is that the whole WWII and their main personalities is still the bread of countless historians and authors till today...someone has to read all that. It seems the world is still very much fascinated by all this! ;) (What is a "coprofag"?)

Bratwurst BoyThreads: 11 Posts: 14,563 Joined: Apr 2, 07	Edited by: Bratwurst Boy Dec 23, 09, 21:26 / #
southern: Heindrich was executed by english order because he managed to raise the living standards in the Protektorat. ...and they feared what he could do in France (as rumours had it would had been his next assignment not to mention him being groomed as Hitlers successor). There was nothing worse for the Allies than a successfull Nazi! Torq: That is why memoirs of mass murderers or cannibals are usually bestsellers. People are just sick, aren't they...;)

southernThreads: 116 Posts: 10,949 Joined: May 17, 07	Dec 23, 09, 21:31 / #
Yes,the Anglos thought they would keep the CR but when Stalin set his claims,they could just smoke.However I think one of the reason Czechs were so cruel in Sudeten exodus was the SS brutality to destroy completely two czech villages to take revenge for Heindrich's death.

Bratwurst BoyThreads: 11 Posts: 14,563 Joined: Apr 2, 07	Edited by: Bratwurst Boy Dec 23, 09, 21:31 / #
The Allies KNEW that the punishment for killing Hitlers prodigy would be enormous...

Bratwurst BoyThreads: 11 Posts: 14,563 Joined: Apr 2, 07	Edited by: Bratwurst Boy Dec 23, 09, 21:36 / #
southern: Heindrich was not particularly popular in the nazi environment especially among the old prussian military men. Heh:) He was not only not popular, he was downright feared! Heydrich had not only all informations about enemies of the Reich, he knew all the little dirty secrets of everybody who held a position. A whole drawer of register cards. One wrong word, a wrong glance and a miffed Heydrich would make sure that rumours started to spread, the Gestapo would knock on doors. Nobody was totally safe or immune...what a fascinating prick! It is said that Himmler did run to the dying Heydrich and wanted to know where he had hidden these infos...

southernThreads: 116 Posts: 10,949 Joined: May 17, 07	Dec 23, 09, 21:38 / #
Yes,rather enigmatic.Some however had the secret hope that he would succeed Hitler and bring the war to an end.Did he participate in the attempt against Hitler?We will never know.

Bratwurst BoyThreads: 11 Posts: 14,563 Joined: Apr 2, 07	Edited by: Bratwurst Boy Dec 23, 09, 21:40 / #
southern: Some however had the secret hope that he would succeed Hitler and bring the war to an end Doubt that, he was a believer, a real Nazi, through and through...but then...we will never know!

HarryThreads: 62 Posts: 8,508 Joined: May 2, 07 [Suspended]	Dec 24, 09, 11:45 / #
southern: Did he participate in the attempt against Hitler?We will never know. Did he participate in the attempt against Hitler? I would say that it was exceedingly unlikely that he did, seeing as he'd been dead for two years before the bomb went off.

przelotemThreads: - Posts: 20 Joined: Dec 18, 09	Dec 24, 09, 12:03 / #
Norman: At the moment im reading 'The rise and fall of communism' by Archie Brown (prof at Oxford in history of the communist era) He has some explanations about the invasion of Russia in Poland. When communists came to power a few decades long they wanted to make the inhabitants believe that actually Russia did good job protecting the Poles from Nazi-Germany it never worked, even in the latest years of PRL school books were full of stories and poems celebrating the alledged russian-polish friendship, new monuments and memorials for russian bravery and dedication were erected but Poles had survived. the history shows, that no matter for how long Pl was swept away from the map of Europe, this nation has kept itself strong. perhaps under German occupation, if the Nazis had won the war, it would be the same: Pl - the ghost... country, untill they would fight their independence back. unbeatable...well, at least, this it what we love to think of ourselves :-)

SokratesThreads: 19 Posts: 4,464 Joined: Jan 19, 09 [Suspended]	Dec 25, 09, 11:37 / #
Norman: What if....Germans would have won the war.... What if you read books instead of internet forums? Hitler made it clear, most would be killed, the rest would be resettled with some being germanized to fill in the numbers Germany would need post war. southern: he participate in the attempt against Hitler?We will never know. Highly unlikely, the man was a coward and an ardent Nazi, he did not want to go against his own show and he lacked the courage to do so.

Bratwurst BoyThreads: 11 Posts: 14,563 Joined: Apr 2, 07	Edited by: Bratwurst Boy Dec 25, 09, 11:52 / #
Sokrates: the man was a coward and an ardent Nazi Not a coward...but a Nazi to boot! http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reinhard_Heydrich ...During his 14 years with the SS, Heydrich truly "rose from the ranks", being appointed to every rank from private to full general. He was also a Major in the Luftwaffe, flying nearly one hundred missions until he was shot down behind enemy lines by Soviet AA while flying a combat sortie. Compared to the other beaureaucrat pencil pushers he actively sought the "action", Hitler had to forbid it.