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Moscow: “Katyn massacre” files to remain secret


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SomerledThreads: 6
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  Oct 7, 08, 00:41 /  #
A Moscow court has rejected a Russian NGO’s appeal to disclose the 1940 “Katyn massacre” records.

The Municipal Court in Moscow rejected, Thursday, an appeal by the Russian historical and civil rights NGO, the Memorial Society, to disclose reasons behind disclose a decision to discontinue the investigation into the killing of thousands of Polish officers by the NKVD in 1940.

polskieradio.pl/thenews/foreign-affairs/?id=92737

celinskiThreads: 83
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  Oct 7, 08, 06:00 /  #
It's like this song was written just for ....



Katyń crime scenes with A Perfect Circle
MattmackThreads: -
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Edited by: Mattmack   Oct 7, 08, 14:48 /  #
Beautiful song, such a sad video. I have yet to see that movie, Katyn. I get the distinct impression that it's one of those films that stays with you...

In regards to the Moscow Municipal Court's ruling....why am I not at all surprised..

I'm being rude, posting with out introducing myself..
Hello everyone my name is Matt, Polish-descended American with a voracious appetite for Polish history.
I happened upon this forum some time ago and have enjoyed it a lot. Just thought I post a thing or two today finally. :)
SeanusThreads: 22
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Joined: Dec 25, 07
  Oct 7, 08, 14:52 /  #
http://www.economist.com/research/articlesBySubject/displaystory.cfm?s ubjectid=549283&story_id=11579381,

Sorry, I'm adding nothing of significance here but it's info nonetheless. I like Economist articles, I use them for convo lessons.
loco polacoThreads: 3
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  Oct 7, 08, 14:55 /  #
well, if they'd let those documents out, then they couldn't call it revenge, could they? fvking russkies.
SomerledThreads: 6
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  Oct 7, 08, 14:57 /  #
Mattmack:

I have yet to see that movie, Katyn.


Great movie. Check it out.
MattmackThreads: -
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Joined: Oct 7, 08
  Oct 7, 08, 15:07 /  #
Somerled:

Great movie. Check it out.


I will surely do so. Just put it on my Blockbuster list :)

I was reading the Economist article...how frustratingly ridiculous this whole thing is.
Putin...argh!

At any rate, I found this part interesting:

"Another Moscow court recently brushed aside an attempt by Memorial, a Russian human-rights group, to declassify the Katyn files."

Memorial's attempt was brushed aside, of course. In that environment, I'm sure a Human Right group's opinion means little to nothing but I did find it at least a little bit heartening that a Russian group did at the very least speak up.
celinskiThreads: 83
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  Oct 7, 08, 16:30 /  #
You can get it with English titles at Polbooks.com
MattewoflvThreads: -
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  Oct 8, 08, 13:33 /  #
polbooks.com doesnt exist

do you have a better link?
SomerledThreads: 6
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Joined: May 31, 07
  Oct 8, 08, 15:45 /  #
You could torrent it.
celinskiThreads: 83
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  Oct 9, 08, 05:27 /  #
Mattewoflv:

polbooks.com doesnt exist


It's on sale $19.95

polbook.com/index.php?p=index&t=opis&v=115756
masks98Threads: 32
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Edited by: masks98   Oct 10, 08, 08:16 /  #
what would be the point of making 'katyn' files public? I mean, I know what the point would be but I'm a little exasperated with what happens when documents are declassified in the US - nothing.

We now have documentary proof showing people like Henry Kissinger, Gerald Ford, and many others at their worst, caught red-handed while scheming to overthrow this guy, invade that country, causing the deaths of hundreds of thousands around the globe. It's all public for everyone to see but no one cares. John Negroponte was put in high ranking position in the Bush administration even though he is on record for overseeing atrocities while in Honduras and asia. And Kissinger advises the McCain campaign.
celinskiThreads: 83
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  Oct 11, 08, 07:29 /  #
masks98:

what would be the point of making 'katyn' files public?


Family could retrieve personal belongings (wedding rings, crosses, diaries, letters to loved ones. Soviets were also very good in keeping records.
HWPielThreads: 1
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  Oct 11, 08, 08:15 /  #
The thing is, most of the personal effects were lost during the end of the war, and many of the official records were destroyed, lost or altered. This has been well documented by legitimate sources from the Polish Underground. Finding truths from Lenin or Stalin-era is like finding a needle in a haystack. The Soviets, unlike the Germans, had a penchant for altering documentation, or destroying it when the need arose.

I am a Katyn scholar myself, and I have been doing a literature review for over a year now on Katyn; the best source for "official Russian documents" and their translation is:

Cienciala, A. M., Lebedeva, N. S., & Materski W., "Katyn: A Crime Without Punishment" Yale University Press, New Haven, CT, USA 2007

This text is the official documentation Packet No. 1 handed over by Boris Yeltsin on 14OCT92 to Polish government and scholars.

Now, from a political standpoint I do not see the Russians turning over any documentation until the WWII generation is gone... if there is any remaining. As an American-Pole, of course I want to see justice done; however, politically speaking the world had the chance several times to right this wrong (Nuremberg, Polish Inquiry '46, US Senate '52, etc.) nothing was done, because it is a political hot kielbasa. The new Russian view is that Katyn was a political crime, not a war crime and therefore does not need further explanation.

I agree with this to a certain point. The victim can always cry victim, and we as Poles take this crime very seriously. Yet compared a simple search on RJ Rummel's website or even Wikipedia will reveal more damaging and harrowing genocides/exterminations/liquidations. Katyn must be looked at in the historical context of time, era, political winds and agendas. If FDR or Churchill raised it and pushed WWII may have ended much differently.

The Soviets admitted guilt, monuments were changed and even though reparations are not sought, no one was brought to justice - unlike the Jew peoples and their drive to find anyone who wore a NAZI uniform.

Fitzgibbon, Paul, Davies, Zawodny all postulate the NKVD men who committed the murders were killed themselves; those who ordered were killed, assassinated, or imprisoned themselves.

Justice will never be done, Katyn is about honoring and remembering those lost. Katyn and justice are words that no government official wants to use in the same sentence.

H
celinskiThreads: 83
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Edited by: celinski   Oct 11, 08, 08:34 /  #
<div class="quoting">HWPiel:

The Soviets, unlike the Germans, had a penchant for altering documentation, or destroying it when the need arose.</div>
<div class="quoting">HWPiel:

"We know that there were at least 2,000 people who commited this crime," he added, appealing to Polish President Aleksander Kwasniewski to intervene. "Now it is up to the politicians to take a step. To be tough on this issue."

Thirty-three volumes of documents on the Katyn massacre by Stalin's NKVD secret police in 1940 remained inaccessible because they were still classified as secret, said Witold Kulesza, head of investigations at the Polish Institute of National Memory (IPN).

http://www.encyclopedia.com/doc/1P1-109745406.html

http://www.cracow-life.com/news/news/374-Russia_Says_Katyn_Executions_ Not_Genocide


politically speaking the world had the chance several times to right this wrong (Nuremberg, Polish Inquiry '46, US Senate '52, etc.) nothing was done, because it is a political hot kielbasa. </div>


How could anything be done when "Communist Poland" was running the show?

Relatives of officers killed in the Katyn massacre, seen in Poland as a symbol of Soviet repression, want the Russian courts to recognize that the victims were killed unlawfully, a step they hope will open the way for the culprits to be identified.



"The families want their relatives to be rehabilitated to make clear that they were not criminals who were convicted by a court and shot ... There has never been any apology and nobody has been prosecuted," she said.

reuters.com/article/GCA-Russia/idUSL1056729520080610
HWPielThreads: 1
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  Oct 11, 08, 09:24 /  #
I have to disagree with you, Communist Poland was not running any show; 1944 to 1989. Poland was a communist satellite state, from Bierut to Jaruzelski, with Moscow's heel on firmly her neck. Poland was an annex of the USSR.

The premise and very means for the Katyn Massacres was to liquidate those who would/will/may oppose the Soviets or represented capitalistic (free) society. Poland was split right down the line in the '38 Ribbentrop-Molotov Pact, with USSR getting about 60 percent west, NAZI DE 40 percent of the west... Silesa to Pomerania.

The Soviets allowed the Polish Intelligentsia to conduct a fruitless exercise in Katyn truths, and of course it was stonewalled in '46. More was done overseas in Britian (ignored) and in the US (facts verified and still ignored).

It becomes an ethical dilemma, do you up-end world peace because of a minute (n=15,000 deaths) war time crime predicated on an act that was agreed upon pre-war? The US and UK is heavily to blame for ignoring Katyn. At Yalta when the world was being carved up post-NAZI no one mentioned Katyn and repercussions... why would anyone? FDR conceded Poland to the USSR - Katyn was USSR's problem. What about Russia's own who perished in the Gulag? Was Katyn worse, as a crime against humanity, than the Japanese doing microbiological testing on US prisoners? Or the 3.9 million liquidated by Japan's forces in WWII? Where does one draw the line?

Ironically, I am not an ethicist.

Yeltsin did recognize and apologize for the Katyn at the dedication of the Katyn Forest Memorial (at the actual site). Asking for legal/financial claims is fruitless, while every victim group would love a reparations of sorts, you'd be setting a rather ugly precendant. Consider when Swiss Banks freed up abandoned NAZI accounts and monies were given to Jewish survivors of the Holocaust... a small percentage < .02% got any money, the next question should be who got the money and under what circumstances for qualification.

Katyn is an ugly sticky-wicket. An assault to our people, heritage and culture. What was done was reprehensible and irreversible. However, there were more worse genocides, purges and crimes in history. My mission, to never let those who died be forgotten.

Henry
celinskiThreads: 83
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  Oct 11, 08, 09:46 /  #
HWPiel:

Henry


I understand where you are coming from. My main point is not money to victims, it is this renewed historical lie that Stalin was a hero and bringing the Soviet military crimes back to light as something to be proud of.

While we remember the victims, I understand the anti communist stance and why freedom was what they stood for. Society does not stand for "Hitler" being a person the German's wave around, why should the victims of "Stalin's" crimes stand for this?
HWPielThreads: 1
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Edited by: HWPiel   Oct 11, 08, 16:59 /  #
I am glad... I thought I may have gotten on a soapbox or started talking about my agenda too much. LOL, sorry.

You bring up another good point. I am an American, second generation Pole. My grandparents all come over on the boat after the Polish-Russo war of '18-'21. Quickly my grandparents became "Americanized", as this was the norm with all peoples coming through Ellis Island. My late uncle was a Polish historian, well published which inspired me to start buying historical texts on Poland... because I felt that I did not know what Polonia was all about. Both of my parents grew up during WW2 and were Americans, and I was even more American. I had lost my roots and ethnic background! Couple this with growing up in an Irish Catholic town in Massachusetts... I knew nothing of my ancestry, people or culture.

A current problem or issue in America, it may or may not be your stance, is one that immigrants must be acclimated and speak English. The Mexicans hold onto their language and traditions very nicely, yet far-right wing Americans (I am a fiscal conservative myself) tend to see this as Anti-American. I see it as a group of peoples holding onto their culture - I applaud them for doing so.

Recently, I was in Tom's Deli in Worcester, Massachusetts. Tom's is a well known Polish owned Eastern European deli. I met a Polish man there and dropped a few phrases I am learning in Polish, he talked in English and he was Canadian. He was 55 years old and been over the pond here for 25 years. He never saw the end of communism in Poland, only heard or read about it; he was a product of 1950's communist-era Poland, and so he really did not know freedom. He did not like US or the concept of work for pay - nothing was handed out. He was comfortable with Poland as a satellite state because it is what he grew up with and what he knew. This is why there are still (older people) who are hard-liner communists in Russia today. Once the generation dies off, it will be replaced by other broader political people who know a new system which includes personal freedoms.

I strongly believe the next generation of German and Russian governments will release more and more information (like the US's version of the Freedom of Information Act).

I also believe that there is nothing new to learn about Katyn. We know, the who, why, what when, how and where; we also know that justice turned her head and looked the other way due to the volatile political mess the Soviets created (Stalin admitted this too - while he admitted that, he never thought the NAZIs would launch Operation Barbarossa into USSR) and Katyn was a mistake he regretted. Especially with the Yalta and Tehran conferences providing favorable outcomes for the Soviets.
- - - -
I became obsessed with Katyn this spring, and decided to turn it into my Master's Thesis. I have a collection of over 40 academic books on Katyn and about 50+ in general Polish history. Katyn, for some reason incites a sadness in me, an anger, and a drive to keep the remembrance alive. It is important to me, though I have not lost anyone in Katyn, I am sure to have lost family in Poland during 1939 to 1949. I forgot who said it, as I read it during my literature review over the summer, regarding Katyn, "... if I should forget Katyn, may God forget me."
Filios1Threads: 15
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  Oct 11, 08, 17:02 /  #
HWPiel:

sadness in me, an anger, and a drive to keep the remembrance alive


These are all normal emotions, bracie. Keep the memory of our fallen loved ones alive, and good luck to you with your master's paper.
HWPielThreads: 1
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  Oct 11, 08, 17:06 /  #
Thank you.

H
Ozi DanThreads: 22
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  Oct 13, 08, 05:31 /  #
HWPiel:

I also believe that there is nothing new to learn about Katyn.


Katyn transcends a historic anecdote or a blip in the scale of world genocide. Nor is it a simple exercise in learning.

Katyn is a metaphor for Poland and as such requires the most dogged and fanatical pursuit by Poles at any cost. To do otherwise would be to show the world that Poland allows itself to be degraded and will be satisfied with a resolution that provides nothing but memories in people's hearts of those that were murdered.

Never forgetting is one thing - showing these bastards that they'll be chased to the end of the earth and back in pursuit of retribution and recognisance is another. History repeats, and Poland's stance on this issue may determine future events.

It's up to Poland's (emigre) intelligentsia such as yourself to demonstrate what will happen to those who think that Poland will be subject this type of degradation again.

Good luck in your Masters. Be prepared though for cynicism, doubt and outright incredulousness from your lecturer when you submit your paper - I know because I've been there twice before (though I can't claim I have written a Masters thesis).
ConstantineKThreads: 35
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  Oct 14, 08, 06:54 /  #
Ozi Dan:

showing these bastards that they'll be chased to the end of the earth


Whom do you want to chase? They are already IN the earth!
celinskiThreads: 83
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  Oct 14, 08, 14:46 /  #
ConstantineK:

They are already IN the earth!


It's a matter of history reporting truth reguardless if the killers are dead.
Ozi DanThreads: 22
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  Oct 15, 08, 02:24 /  #
ConstantineK:

Whom do you want to chase? They are already IN the earth!


No one in particular at this juncture. The point I was trying to make was that
this is a prime opportunity to demonstrate to the world that Poland will not tolerate this type of behaviour. That will be shown by demonstrating through dogged pursuit of Poland's right to seek an accounting and bringing to justrice of the perpetrators and/or the regime responsible. Likely it will end with no one punished, but the point will be made.
ConstantineKThreads: 35
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  Oct 15, 08, 02:42 /  #
Ozi Dan:

Likely it will end with no one punished, but the point will be made.


It is very important to stop at proper time... Otherwise how do you think would proceed Russo-Polish negotiations? "....in oppening address, Polish side have expressed its dislike to Russian side...." Do you think it will work?
Ozi DanThreads: 22
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  Oct 15, 08, 06:50 /  #
ConstantineK:

It is very important to stop at proper time...


The proper time will be determined by the Poles on Polish terms.

ConstantineK:

Do you think it will work?


I hope not. To my mind, Poles and Russians cannot and should not be partners on anything. Russia will always seek to dominate. Mutual respect and tolerance is impossible. There will always be underlying tension and discord. The only political imperative of Russia is politics as a mean to an end to - that end being dominance and hegemony. Russia recognises strong arm militarism, internal control and external dominance. These are concepts anathema to Poland, so how can there be a level playing field?
ConstantineKThreads: 35
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  Oct 15, 08, 07:07 /  #
Ozi Dan:

The proper time will be determined by the Poles on Polish terms.


Oh my dear Ozi, Poland determine nothing in this game, though there is no Polish terms either, you can dream up what ever you want, but it ia the fact...

Ozi Dan:

These are concepts anathema to Poland, so how can there be a level playing field


ah, come on, that is only the jealousy of the fly to elefant....
BorrkaThreads: 49
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  Oct 15, 08, 07:24 /  #
ConstantineK:

elefant...


Russian elephant ... you've just made my day Kostik.
I would rather say "toofless babushka" instead.
ConstantineKThreads: 35
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  Oct 15, 08, 07:31 /  #
Borrka:

I would rather say "toofless babushka" instead.


All babyshkas in Russia have toooofs ;-)))
celinskiThreads: 83
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  Oct 15, 08, 08:42 /  #
<div class="quoting">ConstantineK:

you can dream up what ever you want</div>

Russia needs resolve as much if not more than the others.

There was no Nuremberg trial for communist holocaust and atrocities.

Not until the Communist Leaders are made to stand trial for their crimes against the Polish, Ukrainian, Lithuanian, Latvian, Estonian, Belarusian, Finnish, Rumanian, Hungarian (1956), Czechoslovak (1968 ) people, and last but not least, their own Soviet citizens, will the people of Russia be truly free, and other victims and survivors will be reconciled and compensated.

rymaszewski.iinet.net.au/5stalin.html

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