Moscow: “Katyn massacre” files to remain secret

celinski:

Not until the Communist Leaders are made to stand trial for their crimes against the Polish, Ukrainian, Lithuanian, Latvian, Estonian, Belarusian, Finnish, Rumanian, Hungarian (1956), Czechoslovak (1968 ) people, and last but not least, their own Soviet citizens, will the people of Russia be truly free, and other victims and survivors will be reconciled and compensated.

ConstantineKThreads: 35 Posts: 1,949 Joined: May 10, 07	Oct 15, 08, 09:06 / #
celinski: Not until the Communist Leaders are made to stand trial for their crimes against the Polish, Ukrainian, Lithuanian, Latvian, Estonian, Belarusian, Finnish, Rumanian, Hungarian (1956), Czechoslovak (1968 ) people, and last but not least, their own Soviet citizens, will the people of Russia be truly free, and other victims and survivors will be reconciled and compensated. But could you formulate here, whom you want to judge? I need names and persons!

celinskiThreads: 83 Posts: 2,800 Joined: Nov 14, 07	Oct 15, 08, 09:23 / #
ConstantineK: I need names and persons! Russia needs to release the files. This was in yesterdays news, maybe theres a light at the end of the tunnel. Mass Declassification of State Secrets Parliamentary hearing on improving legislation on state secrets will take place in the State Duma on Tuesday, writes Gazeta newspaper. A package of amendments to federal legislation is likely to be drafted that will result in the most massive declassification of state secrets in Russia since the early 1990s. Heads of federal agencies of executive power will be expected to carry out regular checks on the necessity of maintaining the secret status of archive documents. The transfer of material from status of state secret to that of privileged information will be encouraged. http://www.kommersant.com/page.asp?id=-13393

ConstantineKThreads: 35 Posts: 1,949 Joined: May 10, 07	Oct 15, 08, 23:47 / #
celinski: Russia needs to release the files. Why Russia should, not USA?

celinskiThreads: 83 Posts: 2,800 Joined: Nov 14, 07	Oct 16, 08, 07:50 / #
ConstantineK: Why Russia should, not USA? USA has.

ConstantineKThreads: 35 Posts: 1,949 Joined: May 10, 07	Oct 16, 08, 08:16 / #
celinski: USA has. ???? Really? You allege that all archives in US are open? Don't think so!

celinskiThreads: 83 Posts: 2,800 Joined: Nov 14, 07	Oct 16, 08, 08:25 / #
ConstantineK: You allege that all archives in US are open? What do you want to see? We are talking about Soviet files correct?

ConstantineKThreads: 35 Posts: 1,949 Joined: May 10, 07	Oct 16, 08, 08:30 / #
not exactly, we are talking about secret archives, not only Soviet... Of course US have opened files concerning Soviet Union. We too could open files about US actions, it is not a point!

celinskiThreads: 83 Posts: 2,800 Joined: Nov 14, 07	Oct 16, 08, 11:03 / #
ConstantineK: Of course US have opened files concerning Soviet Union. Our screw ups in WW2 are open, not to mention the shame of not helping Poland. Go to Roosevelt files, it tells of "Katyn" and not acting on it along with the help given to Stalin.

HWPielThreads: 1 Posts: 83 Joined: Oct 10, 08	Oct 25, 08, 10:18 / #
celinski: Go to Roosevelt files, it tells of "Katyn" and not acting on it along with the help given to Stalin. This is why Katyń is a conspiracy... Roosevelt and Churchill knew about it, yet took no action during any of the conferences. Both Roosevelt and Churchill had sufficient evidence which implicated the Soviets, yet both ignored it. Shaping the world for post-WW2 was more important than the lives of ~15,000 Poles; the first ethical dilemma. The second ethical dilemma stands: what is 15k compared to the intelligentsia the Jewish peoples suffered in WW2? The numbers are staggering, in fact, there were more Polish-Jews in Warsaw who perished in WW2 compared to the victims of Katyń. Both are reprehensible acts of brutality. How Katyń is classified: mass murder, genocide, or war crime is another topic. Personally, I think it is a war crime, no different than the Japanese purges of China, Russian rapes of Berliners, and American atrocities in the Pacific, etc. Katyń was a crime of opportunity which was to have an effect on the shaping of the Soviet empire post-WW2. H

SeanusThreads: 22 Posts: 30,158 Joined: Dec 25, 07	Sep 13, 09, 15:11 / #
Roosevelt and Churchill knew about it? What?? That's news to me! Churchill is a huge hypocrite if that's the case. He allegedly mourned the loss of life in WWII and blamed himself for not acting sooner. He no doubt blamed Chamberlain for his naivety but hindsight is 20/20. HW Piel, there is a thread now on your last para. I think it was a war crime too, such was the prevailing climate.

irishdeanoThreads: 11 Posts: 492 Joined: Oct 23, 07	Edited by: irishdeano Sep 13, 09, 15:20 / #
I did see a show about Roosevelt that he was given alot of information about what stalin was going to do and he stood back, He also sent one of the leading guys off to some island so he couldnt give the information out to anyone else. The end of the day, They alies were not stupid they know what Russia was capable off and what they would do.

SeanusThreads: 22 Posts: 30,158 Joined: Dec 25, 07	Edited by: Seanus Sep 13, 09, 15:28 / #
A bit like Pearl Harbour then? Roosevelt bowing to the shadow government above him. The same as Churchill, essential papers went to the bottom of the pile if they weren't convenient.

SeanusThreads: 22 Posts: 30,158 Joined: Dec 25, 07	Sep 13, 09, 17:12 / #
Passing the buck was one of their most despicable offences. Trying to say that it was Germany was ludicrous. I'm not aware of anything akin to the legal notion of the statute of limitations here. Unfortunately, people probed for the truth too late and a vital opportunity was missed to redress a criminal act.

sjamThreads: 5 Posts: 1,016 Joined: Jan 13, 09	Sep 14, 09, 11:26 / #
Seanus: ludicrous. Bit like what happened to my translation of Katyn execution document that seems to have been moderated out ???? Totally moronic moderation!

SeanusThreads: 22 Posts: 30,158 Joined: Dec 25, 07	Sep 14, 09, 22:40 / #
That document was highly relevant and I don't know why it was moderated out. I'm sure they had their reasons but that was a real find. Maybe on sensitivity grounds?

sjamThreads: 5 Posts: 1,016 Joined: Jan 13, 09	Sep 15, 09, 09:26 / #
Seanus: I'm sure they had their reasons but that was a real find. Maybe on sensitivity grounds? Maybe 'they' could share their reasons??? Why was my submitted translation from a notarised copy of the original Soviet Katyń document deleted out?

SeanusThreads: 22 Posts: 30,158 Joined: Dec 25, 07	Sep 15, 09, 09:43 / #
Did it breach any confidentiality standards? Was it procured from a lawful source? I'd PM them for their reasons.

sjamThreads: 5 Posts: 1,016 Joined: Jan 13, 09	Sep 15, 09, 10:06 / #
Seanus: I'd PM them for their reasons. Maybe I should just threaten 'them' with sending round my mates armed with baseball bats or whatever to 'their' local pubs... that seems to be natural (and acceptable) retort on PF :-) No matter. Its off to work I go!

SeanusThreads: 22 Posts: 30,158 Joined: Dec 25, 07	Sep 15, 09, 11:49 / #
Nah, that'd be guilty until proven innocent and only Iraqis seem to get that treatment :(

CrowThreads: 367 Posts: 7,316 Joined: Feb 14, 07 [Suspended]	Sep 15, 09, 12:07 / #
“Katyn massacre” files to remain secret Why?

SeanusThreads: 22 Posts: 30,158 Joined: Dec 25, 07	Sep 15, 09, 12:10 / #
Maybe it was you, Crow? ;) ;) Maybe you want to maintain the myth that it was the Nazis in order to keep the Russia-Poland alliance chances alive ;) ;)