Norway offers aid for Auschwitz upkeep

Quisling, after Norwegian politician Vidkun Quisling, who assisted Nazi Germany to conquer his own country, is a term used to describe traitors and collaborators. It was most commonly used for fascist political parties and military and paramilitary forces in occupied Allied countries which collaborated with Axis occupiers in World War II, as well as for their members and other collaborators.

1jolaThreads: 33 Posts: 2,739 Joined: Sep 23, 08	Edited by: 1jola Jun 28, 09, 11:12 / #
STOCKHOLM (AFP)---Norway said this week it would donate two million kroner (221,000 euros, 312,000 dollars) to the upkeep of the memorial museum at the Nazi German Auschwitz-Birkenau death camp in Poland. "Auschwitz-Birkenau is perhaps the most important museum in Europe. This site tells a story that we are not allowed to forget," Norwegian Foreign Minister Jonas Gahr Stoere said in a statement. "It is up to all of us to help ensure that this memorial over the extermination of Jews in Europe does not fall into disrepair, so that future generations can also learn about the darkest chapter in European history and thereby help make sure that it never happens again," he said. Poland has proposed the creation of an international fund of 120 million euros for the maintenance of the camp, where some 1.1 million people were killed, including a million Jews from different countries, from 1940 to 1945. http://ejpress.org/article/37587 A related story: Cash crisis threat to Auschwitz http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/7827534.stm

Mr GrunwaldThreads: 34 Posts: 2,354 Joined: Dec 16, 08	Jun 28, 09, 11:44 / #
1jola: "Auschwitz-Birkenau is perhaps the most important museum in Europe. This site tells a story that we are not allowed to forget," Norwegian Foreign Minister Jonas Gahr Stoere said in a statement. One of fiew politicians in Norway I like :=) He is bright I say.

sjamThreads: 5 Posts: 1,016 Joined: Jan 13, 09	Jun 28, 09, 12:08 / #
Is this gesture intended to make up for the fact that 15,000 Norwegians volunteered for Nazi German units, of which 6,000 served in the Waffen SS?

SeanBMThreads: 41 Posts: 8,647 Joined: Mar 10, 08	Edited by: SeanBM Jun 28, 09, 12:14 / #
Norway was under German occupation also and many people died fighting the Nazis. Wiki But don't let that make you prejudice sjam

Grzegorz_Threads: 80 Posts: 6,104 Joined: Nov 16, 06	Jun 28, 09, 12:16 / #
True.

Mr GrunwaldThreads: 34 Posts: 2,354 Joined: Dec 16, 08	Edited by: Mr Grunwald Jun 28, 09, 12:20 / #
SeanBM: Norway was under German occupation also and many people died fighting the Nazis. But don't let that make you prejudice sjam Not many Norwegians if you wanna know, in general Norwegian authorities tried to do as less as possible becaouse of the retaliation. All operations had to be camuflaged as British. sjam: 15,000 Norwegians volunteered for Nazi German units, of which 6,000 served in the Waffen SS? 15, 000 of some 3 Millions? What do you think the rest of peoples stand was? After the war many got hanged and looked very down upon them. Even today! Some are alive and people just don't belive them when they say they ONLY fought Bolschevism on the eastern front, but there is no evidance. Although "communists" and socialists has a free hand when it comes to newspapers. I just stop reading them. "Even before the war ended there was debate among Norwegians about the fate of traitors and collaborators. A few favored a "night of long knives" with extrajudicial killings of known offenders. However, cooler minds prevailed, and much effort was put into assuring due process trials of accused traitors. In the end, 37 people were executed by Norwegian authorities, 25 Norwegians on the grounds of treason, and 12 Germans on the grounds of crimes against humanity. 28,750 were arrested, though most were released for lack of probable cause. In the end, 20,000 Norwegians and a smaller number of Germans were given prison sentences. Seventy-seven Norwegians and 18 Germans received life sentences. A number of people were sentenced to pay heavy fines. The trials have been subject to some criticism in later years. It has been pointed out that sentences became more lenient with the passage of time, and that many of the charges were based on the unconstitutional[2] and illegal retroactive application of laws." Wiki quote

sjamThreads: 5 Posts: 1,016 Joined: Jan 13, 09	Edited by: sjam Jun 28, 09, 12:39 / #
"Quisling" was a commonly used adjective to describe a traitor or collaborator during WWII? Quisling, after Norwegian politician Vidkun Quisling, who assisted Nazi Germany to conquer his own country, is a term used to describe traitors and collaborators. It was most commonly used for fascist political parties and military and paramilitary forces in occupied Allied countries which collaborated with Axis occupiers in World War II, as well as for their members and other collaborators. Poland had no "Quisling" and yet Poland gets most vilification for the Holocuast (apart from Germany)????

1jolaThreads: 33 Posts: 2,739 Joined: Sep 23, 08	Jun 28, 09, 13:44 / #
I don't think Norway is doing this out of guilt. Poland made an appeal some months ago for help covering the costs and they responded. As everyone knows there are many ex-camps in PL, all are free of enterance fee, so the burden is on one country for maintaining something we wish we didn't have to maintain.

WroclawThreads: 74 Posts: 7,276 Joined: Apr 1, 06 [Moderator]	Jun 28, 09, 14:25 / #
I smell a rat When I visited Auschwitz many years ago it was made plain to me and the company I was in that the camp was a memorial and not a museum. It was also explained that the site would remain untouched. Now it seems that it will be looked after, repaired etc. This wouldn't have anything to do with tourism, would it ? The financial gain that might be made by locals, business in general and others. Some seem to have found a way to exploit the camp and all the misery it contained.

aphrodisiacThreads: 19 Posts: 3,907 Joined: Apr 15, 09	Jun 28, 09, 14:33 / #
Wroclaw: The financial gain that might be made by locals, business in general and others. Some seem to have found a way to exploit the camp and all the misery it contained. good point but who are the "some"?

1jolaThreads: 33 Posts: 2,739 Joined: Sep 23, 08	Jun 28, 09, 16:14 / #
Looking at your avatar, no wonder you smell a rat, Wrocław. I visited the camp this January. There is nothing commercial about it. The Jews kicked out the Carmelite nuns, the crosses are gone but one. The visit to Auschwitz I and II is free. Everyone comes from Cracow to visit and there only a chow place and a book shop. Now catch this: Foreign help constitutes only 1-3% of the Auschwitz museum's annual $10m budget - barely enough to cover day-to-day operations, including paying the museum's 250 staff, let alone conservation work. http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/7907302.stm ...and Norway said this week it would donate two million kroner (221,000 euros, 312,000 dollars) It's a huge site to maintain and you can't put a roof over it.

WroclawThreads: 74 Posts: 7,276 Joined: Apr 1, 06 [Moderator]	Jun 28, 09, 16:31 / #
1jola: I visited the camp this January. There is nothing commercial about it. I was thinking of hotels etc possibly being built nearby. 1jola: The Jews kicked out the Carmelite nuns, I seem to remember Glemp and Pope John Paul II having words about this years ago. 1jola, I noticed in the links you provided that there are those who think the camp should be left alone. For the time being I agree with them. Payment of staff is an obvious necessity. So, on this point I agree that money has to come from somewhere.

1jolaThreads: 33 Posts: 2,739 Joined: Sep 23, 08	Edited by: 1jola Jun 28, 09, 16:34 / #
Apart from the very expensive 'souvenir' shop! I'm looking at the two books I bought and the receipt: From Auschwitz to Heaven - The Saints and the Blessed ( about priests and nuns murdered there) 25 zł or 6 euros. Volunteer to Auschwitz - Witold Pilecki 1901-1948 for 28 zł or 7 euros. Hardly expensive.

1jolaThreads: 33 Posts: 2,739 Joined: Sep 23, 08	Jun 28, 09, 17:11 / #
Wrocław, There are a million visitors a year, so there must be some infrastructure. I didn't see any commercialization of the area around the camp. I think in the past Jews have tried to dictate what should be allowed and not allowed and probably didn't want to understand that people live in this town and can't walk around in mourning all their life. In the last few years I haven't heard of any difficulties from either side. They sorted out the displays of religious symbols and I believe the visiting Jewish youth got a good briefing to behave normally as that was causing bad publicity. Let's see if other countries think it is also worth preserving like Norway does. I think it is. When I see Treblinka, I don't get the same feeling since there are no buildings, but there the baracks, standing only cells, gallows, etc. really drive it home. It's not for children. I think more things should be translated into at least English, but most people take a guide.

WroclawThreads: 74 Posts: 7,276 Joined: Apr 1, 06 [Moderator]	Jun 28, 09, 14:56 / #
aphrodisiac: good point but who are the "some"? Those I do not know. I can only quantify them with 'some'

aphrodisiacThreads: 19 Posts: 3,907 Joined: Apr 15, 09	Jun 28, 09, 15:19 / #
if there is need to upkeep it and Norway is offering, I don't see a problem with that. Does everything has to be political?

hairballThreads: 34 Posts: 770 Joined: Dec 16, 07	Jun 28, 09, 16:19 / #
1jola: There is nothing commercial about it Apart from the very expensive 'souvenir' shop!

WroclawThreads: 74 Posts: 7,276 Joined: Apr 1, 06 [Moderator]	Jun 28, 09, 17:31 / #
1jola: I think in the past Jews have tried to dictate what should be allowed and not allowed and probably didn't want to understand that people live in this town and can't walk around in mourning all their life. This is important because it shows how/why things were explained to me almost twenty years ago. I'll have to revise my opinion.

SokratesThreads: 19 Posts: 4,464 Joined: Jan 19, 09 [Suspended]	Jun 28, 09, 18:59 / #
Jews should pay for Aushwitz since its their favourite playground, if not i say just let it rot. If it was up to me i'd tear the place down, plant some grass and put a memorial in the middle.

Cardno85Threads: 33 Posts: 857 Joined: Jul 11, 08 MEMBER	Edited by: Cardno85 Jun 28, 09, 19:01 / #
Sokrates: If it was up to me i'd tear the place down, plant some grass and put a memorial in the middle. I would have to disagree. I think a memorial with a nice wee garden would just not hammer home the true message of the atrocities commited there. I think it is an important educational landmark, not just for Jewish people, but for everyone.

WroclawThreads: 74 Posts: 7,276 Joined: Apr 1, 06 [Moderator]	Edited by: Wroclaw Jun 28, 09, 19:05 / #
Sokrates: If it was up to me i'd tear the place down, plant some grass and put a memorial in the middle. This is what normally seems to happen in places where evil has happened. Cardno85: a nice wee garden would just not hammer home the true message of the atrocities commited there. plenty people know what happened there without ever having visited Poland.

SokratesThreads: 19 Posts: 4,464 Joined: Jan 19, 09 [Suspended]	Jun 28, 09, 19:10 / #
Wroclaw: This is what normally seems to happen in places where evil has happened. But apparently we need to keep the place up, suffer "Polish concentration camps" and jewish trips that harm our citizens and still pay for this thing? Tear it down, plant some trees and a stone with "here died people R.I.P" in the middle and be done with it. Cardno85: just not hammer home the true message I dont give a shite, if Jews want it up let them pay for it. Cardno85: I think it is an important educational landmark, not just for Jewish people, but for everyone. No its not, people who go there are "oooooh horrible!!!" then they continue being shocked for an hour or two and get on with their lives as dirty or clean as they were. I've been to Auschwitz, the only thing i got out from the trip is the intense dislike for Jews who come there since they're racist twats, the place itself didnt move me that much.

1jolaThreads: 33 Posts: 2,739 Joined: Sep 23, 08	Jun 28, 09, 19:45 / #
There is another way. We also could plant trees there for the Righteous Jews who after the war, and in positions of influence in the UB, saved Polish patriots from prison, torture, and executions. Our version of Yad Vashem. :)

SokratesThreads: 19 Posts: 4,464 Joined: Jan 19, 09 [Suspended]	Jun 28, 09, 19:52 / #
1jola: There is another way. We also could plant trees there for the Righteous Jews who after the war, and in positions of influence in the UB, saved Polish patriots from prison, torture, and executions. Our version of Yad Vashem. :) That would be the smallest park ever :)))

CrowThreads: 365 Posts: 7,192 Joined: Feb 14, 07	Jun 28, 09, 23:37 / #
Norway offers aid for Auschwitz upkeep ahhh, how they like Poles

tornado2007Threads: 20 Posts: 3,497 Joined: Jul 11, 07	Jun 28, 09, 23:39 / #
Well a pat on the back for Norway, at least it shos that somebody cares, although i must admit its a bit of a strange country to step forward and give aid in the upkeep of Auschwitz

ragtime27Threads: 1 Posts: 245 Joined: Feb 20, 09	Jun 29, 09, 02:29 / #
How about Israel chip in :)

sjamThreads: 5 Posts: 1,016 Joined: Jan 13, 09	Edited by: sjam Jun 29, 09, 08:57 / #
1jola: so the burden is on one country for maintaining something we wish we didn't have to maintain. I am guessing it is one of the biggest tourist attractions in Poland if not the largest so why would Polish Tourist Board not maintain it? Sokrates: Tear it down, plant some trees Plant a tree for everyone that was murdered or incarcerated at Auschwitz and its sub-camps—several million trees would be a more visually spectacular memorial (more so than camp buildings) and have also significant environmental benefits.

SokratesThreads: 19 Posts: 4,464 Joined: Jan 19, 09 [Suspended]	Jun 29, 09, 11:01 / #
sjam: Plant a tree for everyone that was murdered or incarcerated at Auschwitz and its sub-camps—several million trees would be a more visually spectacular memorial (more so than camp buildings) and have also significant environmental benefits. If you pay for them, sure!

SeanBMThreads: 41 Posts: 8,647 Joined: Mar 10, 08	Jun 29, 09, 13:11 / #
Why should Poland fit the bill alone for the maintenance?. Personally I think people ought to pay to get in. Almost all other death camps around the world, people must pay in to, so that the place gets maintained. This is no different in that respect.