Norway offers aid for Auschwitz upkeep

I sent again a report to Warsaw, though officer-cadett 112, who, together with three colleagues, assembled a memorable escape from the camp.
Long ago I saw a film "The Ten of Pawiak". I dare say that the escape of the four prisoners from Oświęcim, in the best car in the camp, that of the camp's commander, in disguise in uniforms of SS officers, on the background of the conditions of that hell could be some time a truly excellent subject of a film.
The main guarding post (Hauptwache) presented arms.
Lagerführer Hans Aumeier, riding a horse in a hurry for an evening roll-call, met the car on the way. He saluted them politely, a little astonished why the driver was steering the car into an old railway crossing, then closed. But the car quickly withdrew and crossed the railway in another place.
He laid it on vodka and poor memory of the driver.
They had strong heads - their escape was successful.
The Lagerführer returned to Oświęcim just for the roll-call, when all prisoners stood dressed by blocks. It was here that the scene was played. It was reported to him that four men were missing on the roll-call and, what was worse, that they had driven away in the car of the commander of the camp. It was done the hut of the Blockführerstube. Aumeier nearly went mad, tore his hair from his head, cried aloud that he had met them though. Then he flung his cap on the floor and... he suddenly laughed aloud.

sjamThreads: 5 Posts: 1,016 Joined: Jan 13, 09	Jun 29, 09, 13:16 / #
Sokrates Why would you not also want to honour, with your own monies, at least those non-Jewish Poles that were murdered or incarcerated in Auschwitz and its sub-camps?

aphrodisiacThreads: 19 Posts: 3,907 Joined: Apr 15, 09	Jun 29, 09, 14:32 / #
sjam: least those non-Jewish Poles that were murdered that is what I was thinking. Jews were not the only ones who died there.

SeanusThreads: 22 Posts: 30,160 Joined: Dec 25, 07	Jun 29, 09, 14:38 / #
Very good point! It would serve as a token gesture. Humanitarian concerns should facilitate a humanitarian response. These people were innocent!!

joepilsudskiThreads: 44 Posts: 2,521 Joined: Apr 27, 07	Jun 29, 09, 17:01 / #
Let them pay it all, and let Poland tack on a service charge...

PlasticPoleThreads: 10 Posts: 5,181 Joined: May 28, 09	Jun 29, 09, 18:15 / #
Seanus: Very good point! It would serve as a token gesture. Humanitarian concerns should facilitate a humanitarian response. These people were innocent!! Yes. The human race should all chip in for this memorial and others.

SokratesThreads: 19 Posts: 4,464 Joined: Jan 19, 09 [Suspended]	Jun 29, 09, 18:30 / #
sjam: Why would you not also want to honour, with your own monies, at least those non-Jewish Poles that were murdered or incarcerated in Auschwitz and its sub-camps? Because i'm perfectly fine with my own people being honored with a quiet stone memorial, i dont see any educational value in letting this thing stand rot and cost us money, especially when its slowly becoming a "Polish concentration camp". SeanBM: Why should Poland fit the bill alone for the maintenance?. Personally I think people ought to pay to get in. And thats the only viable way this thing can be left standing.

joepilsudskiThreads: 44 Posts: 2,521 Joined: Apr 27, 07	Jun 29, 09, 19:31 / #
Sokrates: And thats the only viable way this thing can be left standing. Listen, Poland should do what the Soviets did to the Romanov's house in Ekaterinaberg: bulldoze it...The Soviets didn't want the Russian people to make it a shrine to the victims of Jewish murderers...Bulldoze Aushwitz...Let the Jews build a theme park in Israel if they want.

sjamThreads: 5 Posts: 1,016 Joined: Jan 13, 09	Jun 29, 09, 20:04 / #
Sokrates: Because i'm perfectly fine with my own people being honored with a quiet stone memorial, i dont see any educational value in letting this thing stand Thankfully Prof. Wladyslaw Bartoszewski, himself a prisoner at Auschwitz does not agree with you. and he and other former victims have more moral right to decide the fate of Auschwitz-Birkenau than people like you ever will! joepilsudski: Bulldoze Aushwitz...Let the Jews build a theme park in Israel if they want. Infantile!

WroclawThreads: 74 Posts: 7,276 Joined: Apr 1, 06 [Moderator]	Jun 29, 09, 20:12 / #
sjam: Thankfully Prof. Wladyslaw Bartoszewski, himself a prisoner at Auschwitz does not agree with you. and he and other former victims have more moral right to decide the fate of Auschwitz-Birkenau than people like you ever will! As the links above show... those former inmates who expressed an opinion... seem to have opposing views.

SokratesThreads: 19 Posts: 4,464 Joined: Jan 19, 09 [Suspended]	Jun 29, 09, 20:15 / #
sjam: Thankfully Prof. Wladyslaw Bartoszewski, himself a prisoner at Auschwitz does not agree with you. and he and other former victims have more moral right to decide the fate of Auschwitz-Birkenau than people like you ever will! I have enormous respect for W. Bartoszewski but he's soon to pass on and most of my generation is tired with Auschwitz so expect a nice little park there sooner or later. sjam: Infantile! Why? He's right, Auschwitz became part of the Holocaust franchise, why should we pay to help Jews capitalize on their dead?

CrowThreads: 365 Posts: 7,192 Joined: Feb 14, 07	Jun 29, 09, 20:22 / #
Norway offers aid cash flow for Kosovo recognition? Tusk aranged that?

irishdeanoThreads: 11 Posts: 480 Joined: Oct 23, 07	Jun 30, 09, 09:15 / #
They can do something very simple charge 3-5zl to enter, pretty cheap but with over a million visitors a year theres 3 million. I have been to the camp, In the Rooms i felt like i couldnt breathe and i could still smell a horrible smell and then my nose was blocked for 2 days- and i was like this hitler bastid has got me from the grave lol

SeanBMThreads: 41 Posts: 8,647 Joined: Mar 10, 08	Jun 30, 09, 11:29 / #
irishdeano: charge 3-5zl to enter This is with out a doubt the most practical way. You must pay in to most or all(?) other death camps around the world. I don't know why they don't do this?.

1jolaThreads: 33 Posts: 2,739 Joined: Sep 23, 08	Jun 30, 09, 11:43 / #
Would it be like charging money to enter your relatives cemetary?

sjamThreads: 5 Posts: 1,016 Joined: Jan 13, 09	Edited by: sjam Jun 30, 09, 08:49 / #
Sokrates: most of my generation is tired with Auschwitz I doubt you can substantiate this with survey data—it's just more of your trite guffaw? Sokrates: so expect a nice little park there sooner or later. I have no doubt it will be an especially little one—in keeping with your mindset! Sokrates: Auschwitz became part of the Holocaust franchise, why should we pay to help Jews capitalize on their dead? So that's why there are so many death camps in Poland—the Jews bought the franchise rights from the Nazis how astute of them, and of you to pick this up :-)))

1jolaThreads: 33 Posts: 2,739 Joined: Sep 23, 08	Jun 30, 09, 11:58 / #
Slightly off topic. If anyone hasn't read Capt. Witold Pilecki's Report from Auschwitz I strongly recommend it. http://witoldsreport.blogspot.com/2008/05/volunteer-for-auschwitz-repo rt-by.html An interesting passage: I sent again a report to Warsaw, though officer-cadett 112, who, together with three colleagues, assembled a memorable escape from the camp. Long ago I saw a film "The Ten of Pawiak". I dare say that the escape of the four prisoners from Oświęcim, in the best car in the camp, that of the camp's commander, in disguise in uniforms of SS officers, on the background of the conditions of that hell could be some time a truly excellent subject of a film. The main guarding post (Hauptwache) presented arms. Lagerführer Hans Aumeier, riding a horse in a hurry for an evening roll-call, met the car on the way. He saluted them politely, a little astonished why the driver was steering the car into an old railway crossing, then closed. But the car quickly withdrew and crossed the railway in another place. He laid it on vodka and poor memory of the driver. They had strong heads - their escape was successful. The Lagerführer returned to Oświęcim just for the roll-call, when all prisoners stood dressed by blocks. It was here that the scene was played. It was reported to him that four men were missing on the roll-call and, what was worse, that they had driven away in the car of the commander of the camp. It was done the hut of the Blockführerstube. Aumeier nearly went mad, tore his hair from his head, cried aloud that he had met them though. Then he flung his cap on the floor and... he suddenly laughed aloud. Capt. Pilecki foresaw this film, which unfortuanely I can only find in Polish: http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-8916307448601575080 Anyone got any conections in the subtitle biz?

1jolaThreads: 33 Posts: 2,739 Joined: Sep 23, 08	Edited by: 1jola Jun 30, 09, 12:14 / #
I found it with English subtitles: The Escapee. 56min. http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-8833004586259980268 A separate thread will mean more people will see it.

sjamThreads: 5 Posts: 1,016 Joined: Jan 13, 09	Jun 30, 09, 12:19 / #
1jola: If anyone hasn't read Capt. Witold Pilecki's Report from Auschwitz Also related: Escaping Hell: The Story of a Polish Underground Officer in Auschwitz by Kon Piekarski http://members.shaw.ca/escapinghell/ Piekarski helped Pilecki set up the resistance movement in Auschwitz.

irishdeanoThreads: 11 Posts: 480 Joined: Oct 23, 07	Jul 1, 09, 00:06 / #
1jola: Would it be like charging money to enter your relatives cemetary? Well the catholic church do charge you for most things. for example u have to pay for wedding.baptism,or to get buried in that cemetary, The also like to collect money during masses, Nextly its not a cemetary, Its a death camp, a place about history

szkotja2007Threads: 38 Posts: 2,543 Joined: Dec 29, 06	Jul 1, 09, 00:20 / #
1jola: Would it be like charging money to enter your relatives cemetary? Culloden was the site of the last battle on British soil. The killed Highlanders are grouped together, as they fought, by their family clan. The mass graves are marked by a headstone at the bottom of the earth mounds. Despite being out of town you have to pay to use the car park to visit and pay your respects. Not only that, but you get a guy dressed up as the guy that killed them welcoming you at the visitor centre !!!!!!!!!!!!!

tornado2007Threads: 20 Posts: 3,497 Joined: Jul 11, 07	Jul 1, 09, 00:23 / #
1jola: Would it be like charging money to enter your relatives cemetary? i would rather have to pay a £1 to go and see my relatives than pay a £1 to go to the toilet!!!! i'm sure my grandma and grandmother won't mind me saying that and their on the otherside themeselves. Anyway they would be glad of the extra income :)

1jolaThreads: 33 Posts: 2,739 Joined: Sep 23, 08	Jul 1, 09, 01:22 / #
szkotja2007: Not only that, but you get a guy dressed up as the guy that killed them welcoming you at the visitor centre !!!!!!!!!!!!! Now, we wouldn't want a 40 kg. guy in a stripped uniform welcoming us with a Zyclon B can asking for donations at the gate. This is not America. tornado2007: i would rather have to pay a £1 to go and see my relatives than pay a £1 to go to the toilet!!!! Toilets should be free. Tax money well spent. irishdeano: Nextly its not a cemetary, Its a death camp, a place about history You are either very young or very stupid.

PlasticPoleThreads: 10 Posts: 5,181 Joined: May 28, 09	Jul 1, 09, 01:40 / #
1jola: Would it be like charging money to enter your relatives cemetary? It's probably going to happen sooner or later. It's like a tax on the dead. Not only will you pay to enter cemetaries, you will have to pay a tax on anyone dead in your immediate family. This is what is meant by "being taxed to death" or more like, "being taxed in death".

SeanBMThreads: 41 Posts: 8,647 Joined: Mar 10, 08	Jul 1, 09, 01:42 / #
Polish tax payers are paying for the maintenance now.

1jolaThreads: 33 Posts: 2,739 Joined: Sep 23, 08	Edited by: 1jola Jul 1, 09, 01:46 / #
I hope I won't have to pay retroactive back-taxes with interest for all those centuries. In all seriousness, most people will only visit a place like Auschwitz once and wouldn't mind paying a fee. They wouldn't even question it. Camp survivors should enter for free. The problem would be solved without any discussion. I think there would be some screaming from Jewish circles, but then it could be pointed out that their countries were not willing to contribute to maintaing the site and that's it.

irishdeanoThreads: 11 Posts: 480 Joined: Oct 23, 07	Jul 1, 09, 08:15 / #
1jola: You are either very young or very stupid Why would i be very stupid? 1zl from every person who visits is going to break the bank, 3zl or 5 zl also wouldnt break the bank, The toilet in Auschwitz is like 2 zl or something,

sjamThreads: 5 Posts: 1,016 Joined: Jan 13, 09	Edited by: sjam Jul 1, 09, 14:31 / #
Holocaust: The Ignored Reality By Timothy Snyder http://www.nybooks.com/articles/22875 "Two thirds of the Jews who would be killed during the war were already dead by the end of 1942. The main victims, the Polish and Soviet Jews, had been killed by bullets fired over death pits or by carbon monoxide from internal combustion engines pumped into gas chambers at Treblinka, Be zec, and Sobibor in occupied Poland. ....Auschwitz as symbol of the Holocaust excludes those who were at the center of the historical event. The largest group of Holocaust victims—religiously Orthodox and Yiddish-speaking Jews of Poland, or, in the slightly contemptuous German term, Ostjuden —were culturally alien from West Europeans, including West European Jews. To some degree, they continue to be marginalized from the memory of the Holocaust. The death facility Auschwitz-Birkenau was constructed on territories that are today in Poland, although at the time they were part of the German Reich. Auschwitz is thus associated with today's Poland by anyone who visits, yet relatively few Polish Jews and almost no Soviet Jews died there. The two largest groups of victims are nearly missing from the memorial symbol." BTW Timothy Snyder is also working on new book "Bloodlands:Europe between Stalin and Hitler" to be published in 2010.

HarryThreads: 59 Posts: 7,996 Joined: May 2, 07	Jul 1, 09, 14:47 / #
1jola: In all seriousness, most people will only visit a place like Auschwitz once and wouldn't mind paying a fee. They wouldn't even question it. Camp survivors should enter for free. The problem would be solved without any discussion. I think there would be some screaming from Jewish circles, but then it could be pointed out that their countries were not willing to contribute to maintaing the site and that's it. I'd prefer to see the same solution as that adopted by the V&A museum in London: the recommended donation. When you get your ticket you can give the recommended donation or less/more or nothing. I've been in myself without paying (when I was a penniless student) and the woman giving the ticket was fine about me not giving the recommended donation. With this said, I'm not really sure what all the fuss is about: you've had to pay to look round the (tiny) museum at Sobibor since it first opened (assuming you're there between 10am and 2pm!). The site of the camp itself is free. szkotja2007: Despite being out of town you have to pay to use the car park to visit and pay your respects. So what? You have to pay to use the car park at Belzec. Fortunately the very impressive museum is free.

CrowThreads: 365 Posts: 7,192 Joined: Feb 14, 07	Edited by: Crow Jul 1, 09, 18:49 / #
Harry: I'd prefer to see the same solution as that adopted by the V&A museum in London while i have great respect for all Jewish victims of WWII, i must also underline that Brito-Saudi Arabia-German-Iran-Franch-USA-Holland-Turkey-Israel...(etc terrorist states)... victims on Balkan (especialy and particulary Serbians) also deserve modern treatment regarding memory on victims. I`d prefer to see monumental memorial complex in some Belgrade (Capitol of Serbia) suburb with list of names of all Serbians killed in NATO-mujaheedines conquest on Serbian lands and Balkan, in last 20 years. With all due respect

HarryThreads: 59 Posts: 7,996 Joined: May 2, 07	Jul 1, 09, 19:18 / #
Crow: Brito-Saudi Arabia-German-Iran-Franch-USA-Holland-Turkey-Israel...(etc terrorist states) Guess Serbia won't be joining the EU any time soon. Good, you aren't ready for life in the civilised world anyway. Crow: I`d prefer to see monumental memorial complex in some Belgrade (Capitol of Serbia) suburb with list of names of all Serbians killed in NATO-mujaheedines conquest on Serbian lands and Balkan, in last 20 years. Haven't you heard? That already exists: Oh, sorry, my mistake: that is actually the M to O section of the monument put up to comemorate the civilians Serbian Heroes slaughtered in one town in Bosnia in nine days. I must have mistaken the perpetrators of genocide for the victims of genocide due to you incessent whining.