PIŁSUDSKI & BANDERA?

Nathan:

I think Ukrainians don't have any ill feelings towards Pilsudski at all. On the other hand, UPA leader Bandera is like a sore on every Polish I have ever met. I have lived in Ukraine for 19 years since my birth and first time I heard about Pilsudsky - just as a political figure and nothing to do with independance fight etc. - was when I was older and not in Ukraine. From what I have noticed in Polish connaisances I had, Bandera is already a part of Polish everyday vocabulary.

Polonius3Threads: 1,005 Posts: 4,833 Joined: Apr 11, 08	Aug 13, 09, 22:24 / #
These two figures clearly show how one man's freedom-fighter is another man's terrorist. The recent ill-fated Bandera cycle rally brought this into sharper focus. The Ukrainian cyclists were turned away from the Polish border and not let into Poland because their event was designed to glorify the leader of the 1943 anti-Polish massacres in Wołyń. Piłsudski is viewed as an enemy of Urkainian ndependence by many Ukrainians. Poles are also divided about Piłsudski, although a majority regard him as a hero. What do you think?

Mr GrunwaldThreads: 34 Posts: 2,358 Joined: Dec 16, 08	Aug 13, 09, 22:31 / #
Can't remember him massacrating Ukrainians... He was even for their independence just that the Polish nationalists "Fascists" didn't let it happen right?

NathanThreads: 33 Posts: 1,846 Joined: Feb 13, 09	Aug 13, 09, 23:49 / #
I think Ukrainians don't have any ill feelings towards Pilsudski at all. On the other hand, UPA leader Bandera is like a sore on every Polish I have ever met. I have lived in Ukraine for 19 years since my birth and first time I heard about Pilsudsky - just as a political figure and nothing to do with independance fight etc. - was when I was older and not in Ukraine. From what I have noticed in Polish connaisances I had, Bandera is already a part of Polish everyday vocabulary. I think Poles should overcome their feelings and learn to move on. If we would be constantly talking about how poor and saint Polish were in Wolyn' and in Ukraine in general or how bad English are for, supposedly, not inviting Poles to some parade, we will die of boredom. As someone recommended around here - self-reflection and mirror-gazing is of great value to evolve as a nation. Regarding the bike rally - that's fine and it is not the right time to do something like this even though it was 100 anniversary of Stepan Bandera. Smart move on Polish part - neither side needs tension nowadays. We have other, much more important things to do. And definately more Ukraine than Poland.

SashaThreads: 2 Posts: 1,597 Joined: Apr 19, 08	Aug 14, 09, 06:23 / #
It's all about every bird likes its own nest. If one does something to the benefit of one's own country (at least in the short-run) and most of people believe it, he automatically becomes a hero and treated as a hero. I've recently run onto a group in one social network which was called "let's Russianize western Ukraine" and I could hardly restrain my indignation. What if those Russians who initiated the group imagined for a second same rhetoric on the Ukrainian part? What would be their reaction like? Meanwhile they accurately have as many rights to Russianize Ukraine as Ukrainians do to Ukrainize Russia. Unfortunately people tend to think within the scope of stereotypes and can hardly challenge them. That's the problem. Neither of those people in fact was a hero. Anybody knows that Pilsudki had plans to cut off the lion's share of Russia?

BorrkaThreads: 49 Posts: 770 Joined: Apr 25, 08	Aug 14, 09, 08:18 / #
Sasha: Pilsudki had plans to cut off the lion's share of Russia? Here we go go again ! Would you like to prove your statement with any link ? But remember pls. You said "Russia". Not what is today Ukraine and Balorussia. And don't tell me it were parts of the Russian Empire. Using this logic Warsaw was an "old"Russian land as well.

Pan KazimierzThreads: 2 Posts: 276 Joined: Jul 4, 09	Aug 14, 09, 11:09 / #
Nathan: I think Ukrainians don't have any ill feelings towards Pilsudski at all. On the other hand, UPA leader Bandera is like a sore on every Polish I have ever met. I have lived in Ukraine for 19 years since my birth and first time I heard about Pilsudsky - just as a political figure and nothing to do with independance fight etc. - was when I was older and not in Ukraine. From what I have noticed in Polish connaisances I had, Bandera is already a part of Polish everyday vocabulary. Where do you live? Can't say the same here. Not to most people, at least. Though obviously it's one of the more common words, after "the", "and", "but", "or", "also", "Jews", and "WWII" on these forums, but I don't think that they're at all a representation of the population as a whole. From what politics I've talked with Polish people not online, they're far more concerned with more practical topics, such as the EU, currency transition, Iraq war, and all that good stuff. Though it's true that what little I have heard of Bandera hasn't been at all good.

vetalaThreads: - Posts: 512 Joined: Jul 10, 09	Aug 14, 09, 13:09 / #
I've learned about Bandera only this year.

NathanThreads: 33 Posts: 1,846 Joined: Feb 13, 09	Aug 14, 09, 14:14 / #
This is very nice that each of our countries has its heroes. I consider Stepan Bandera to be one of the greatest independance fighters of Ukraine.

BorrkaThreads: 49 Posts: 770 Joined: Apr 25, 08	Edited by: Borrka Aug 15, 09, 12:00 / #
Even if we put aside Volhynia killings, comparing Pilsudski and Bandera is insulting for my common sense. Pilsudski in spite of his problems with democracy was a very successful politician and soldier. No need to list his achievements. On the other hand life of Bandera was some never ending story of failures: Sentenced to death for terrorism in the pre-ww2 Poland (preparing attempts ...on rather pro-Ukrainian politicians). Arrested by Germans for declaring Ukrainian independence in Lviv. (Because of that his two brothers died in nazi KZs.) 1959 murdered by NKVD. For sure important person, even a hero for some Ukrainians but what was his real (not ideological) contribution for free Ukraine ? Even his ideology of integrated Ukrainian nationalism failed - the only costant result of it are Polish-Ukrainian tensions. Tragic personality, good enough for national martyrdom not for future oriented people. Absolutely not to compare with pragmatism and success story of Pilsudski.

IronsideThreads: 59 Posts: 6,778 Joined: Feb 26, 09	Aug 15, 09, 23:55 / #
Nathan: This is very nice that each of our countries has its heroes. I consider Stepan Bandera to be one of the greatest independance fighters of Ukraine. because there not real onces :) Borrka: Absolutely not to compare with pragmatism and success story of Pilsudski. Absolutely!

sloThreads: 2 Posts: 85 Joined: Nov 26, 07	Aug 16, 09, 06:57 / #
I don't know why this strange topic appeared. Bandera and Pilsudski were from different times, acted in different situations and had different destiny. Yes, they are both recognized as heroes by millions in Ukraine and Poland for different reasons and... that's it.