Poland before WWII or Poland now what would you choose?

Sokrates:

We've built Gdańsk, we've developed it, you came relatively late and took it over, selling Gdańsk as a German success is a blatant chauvinistic lie.

Sokrates:

We've built Gdańsk, we've developed it, you came relatively late and took it over, selling Gdańsk as a German success is a blatant chauvinistic lie.

....Destroyed in World War II, it was rebuilt in 1957. The original German inscription has recently been restored: Es müsse wohl gehen denen, die dich lieben. Es müsse Friede sein inwendig in deinen Mauern und Glück in deinen Palästen

The city has many fine buildings from the time of the Hanseatic League. Most tourist attractions are located along or near Ulica Długa (Long Street) and Długi Targ (Long Market), a pedestrian thoroughfare surrounded by buildings reconstructed in historical (primarily 17th century) style and flanked at both ends by elaborate city gates.
This part of the city is sometimes referred to as the Royal Road as the former path of processions for visiting kings.

...Since 1485 the works were carried over by Hans Brandt, who supervised the erection of the main nave core. The works were finally finished after 1496 under Heinrich Haetzl, who supervised the construction of the vaulting....

SokratesThreads: 19 Posts: 4,464 Joined: Jan 19, 09 [Suspended]	Jun 16, 09, 12:49 / #
Seanus: Sokrates, you haven't refuted what I put to you. Namely that Bolesław Chrobry didn't win the territory in AD 997. He fought for it but the Prussians were just too strong and they didn't relinquish control. Seanus: Sokrates, you haven't refuted what I put to you. Namely that Bolesław Chrobry didn't win the territory in AD 997. He fought for it but the Prussians were just too strong and they didn't relinquish control. Absolutely, Pomerania was conquered by Polish units and relinquished to 7 Teutonic Knights who occupied Vogelsang, so Poles did break the Prussians at 1230, what happened after was merry German genocide of peoples who's military might was being systematically broken by Poles for about a century. Pomeranian lands were nominally Polish, in reality Prussian and were given to Teutonic Order as vasaldom, then of course Teutons annexed the lands so we have an illegal German action on lands that pro jure belonged to Poles. As far as Danzing is concerned its still a Polish city untill the Teutons commit first genocide and achieve political authority there. On another interesting note, Poles didnt conquer Prussia because they were unwilling to commit genocide. Leszek Biały was famous for refusing to decimate civilian population of the conquered region (which resulted in his enemies having the manpower to eventually evict him) Teutonic knights achieved success because of their merry embrace of genocide which is food for thought, whether Germans during WW2 murdered because of the influence of the period or whether there's some genetically conditioned element in Germans as such.

SeanusThreads: 22 Posts: 30,160 Joined: Dec 25, 07	Jun 16, 09, 13:59 / #
That was not what I asked you, Sokrates. I asked you if BC, son of Mieszko I, won the battle in 997 AD, the year considered and largely agreed to be the year that Gdańsk was founded. I'm aware of the history that followed but I specifically asked you about 997 AD. Once again, were the Prussians overcome in 997 AD, yes or no?

SokratesThreads: 19 Posts: 4,464 Joined: Jan 19, 09 [Suspended]	Jun 16, 09, 14:54 / #
Seanus: That was not what I asked you, Sokrates. I asked you if BC, son of Mieszko I, won the battle in 997 AD, the year considered and largely agreed to be the year that Gdańsk was founded. Erm i scrolled back and couldnt find the question so i assumed you were referring to the Prusowie, what was the question then?

SeanusThreads: 22 Posts: 30,160 Joined: Dec 25, 07	Jun 16, 09, 14:58 / #
At the end of post 372

SokratesThreads: 19 Posts: 4,464 Joined: Jan 19, 09 [Suspended]	Jun 16, 09, 15:12 / #
Seanus Ah no they were not but what does it matter for Gdańsk question? Prusowie were tribals, Poland had strongholds all over the place and interacted with them on a peacefull foot (when not crusading against them) the lands were interlocking and its not like there was a state of total constant war between the two.

SeanusThreads: 22 Posts: 30,160 Joined: Dec 25, 07	Jun 16, 09, 15:24 / #
I've made it crystal clear above, Sokrates. America has strongholds everywhere in countless numbers of countries, does that make it American territory? I'll put it to you another way, 'was what we know today as Gdańsk under Prussian control in 997 AD, the date of its founding?'

PlasticPoleThreads: 10 Posts: 5,181 Joined: May 28, 09	Jun 16, 09, 15:28 / #
freebird: What I'm not saying is that Poles have to give it back to the Germans. I'm not expecting you guys to share my opinion, all I want from Poles is to admit that these territories used to be German I dunno. Didn't they used to be part of the Commonwealth? At one time it was large.

JucheThreads: 13 Posts: 356 Joined: Feb 17, 09	Jun 16, 09, 15:38 / #
freebird: if you had a chance would you change it back to what Poland was before or prefer it the way it is now? smart people would choose on behalf of the collective the Poland between the two reactionary Polands you mention of course. Poland before WWII was a rusticated swamp, the Poland now is the crass puppet state which kow-tows to international investment class who scurry like rats in drive for conquest and privatiseation. Poland between these two was shining beacon of socialistic victorious progress define by tractors, welders, and shock troops.

SokratesThreads: 19 Posts: 4,464 Joined: Jan 19, 09 [Suspended]	Edited by: Sokrates Jun 16, 09, 15:42 / #
Seanus: I've made it crystal clear above, Sokrates. America has strongholds everywhere in countless numbers of countries, does that make it American territory? Oh the teritory at the time was in reality Prussian, the city of Gdańsk however was Polish, a Polish city built in Prussian teritory, as to how it was possible? Prusowie were tribals, there was no united front against the Polish expansion, Poland built cities and settled entire regions but the majority of the place was definitely Prussian. Seanus: I'll put it to you another way, 'was what we know today as Gdańsk under Prussian control in 997 AD, the date of its founding?' If you're heading for Prussian built or inhabited city then no, there's conclusive evidence that Mieszko built it by both the contemporaries saying so and by digging out earth-wood walls and other items/bits of architecture. By that time German tribes built everything starting with a small stone keep surrounded by a pallisade, Prusowie just made woodworks and stockades and Poles built their cities with a specific design of earth-wood "wał" wall. Thats one example, the one at Gdańsk was a different type but also at the time exclusively Polish, Prussian "wały" were basically artificial hills with a stockade on top, also there's items that belonged to Polanie (the main Polish tribe at the time) so there's no chance the locals had anything to do with the harbors construction and were unlikely to inhabit the city proper. Oh also Sean Gdańsk was the first urban project in the region, there were undoubtedly villages all over the place but its the first city, i'll dig you up the detailed archeologicall story its in polish but you shouldnt have any trouble:)

SeanusThreads: 22 Posts: 30,160 Joined: Dec 25, 07	Jun 16, 09, 15:50 / #
OK, thanks :) Different times, different ways.

Bratwurst BoyThreads: 11 Posts: 14,563 Joined: Apr 2, 07	Edited by: Bratwurst Boy Jun 16, 09, 19:14 / #
Sokrates: "Archeologia Polski Wczesnośredniowiecznej" by Andrzej Buko with pictures and sites (also by German teams freebird so up your ass) proving conclusively that Gdańsk is inhabited almost exlusively by Poles for more than four centuries. You didn't do much with it during your polish times, didn't you....:) Danzig is famous for their successful german sons and daughters, had their big time because of the german founded Hanse (as did many other towns along the Baltic), is admired for german architecture... Just don't let it rot as the Russians did with the pearl Königsberg once was too under german rule, promised? Sokrates: there's some genetically conditioned element in Germans as such. Maybe there is such a thing, who knows! :) But on the other hand Germans also have a genetical element to be energetic, to invent, to make and to build...the traces are still all there!

PlasticPoleThreads: 10 Posts: 5,181 Joined: May 28, 09	Jun 16, 09, 20:10 / #
freebird: Just show me Polish word on any coin from Free City of Danzig, you can't. Why there's almost no Polish names in Danzig's history? Why so many houses in Danzig have German writings on it even tho they were beautifuly restored by Polish restorers? If you are going to use this logic, you know, you better be prepared for the US to give a lot of land back to Mexico or at least quit complaining about illegal immigration because the Mexicans use this same argument which is why they think they have a right to move here.

PlasticPoleThreads: 10 Posts: 5,181 Joined: May 28, 09	Edited by: PlasticPole Jun 16, 09, 20:15 / #
freebird: show where I complained about illegal Mexaicans on this forum, just for the hell of it :-) If you are going to give places to people based on this line of reasoning US would lose a lot of land. In fact, just about everyone on earth would lose their land and we wouldn't have anyplace to live then, would we. We would all be screwed. This is just BS you cannot use this line of reasoning to decide what is happening today. You got to forget all this because it's irrelevant. We need to stop obsessing on what was yesterday and focus on what is today :)))))) What's done is done!!!

freebirdThreads: 3 Posts: 638 Joined: Jun 8, 07	Edited by: freebird Jun 16, 09, 20:23 / #
PlasticPole: If you are going to give places to people based on this line of reasoning US would lose a lot of land. PP what are you talking about? Scroll up and see what I wrote about Danzig etc. Did I say that Poles supposed to give it back to the Germans? Did I PP? All I asked for is you guys to admit that these territories weren't Polish before 1945, that's it. PlasticPole: We need to stop obsessing this is not about obsession, it's about history PP

SokratesThreads: 19 Posts: 4,464 Joined: Jan 19, 09 [Suspended]	Jun 16, 09, 17:04 / #
To finally solve the Gdańsk issue and maybe it will make freebird shut the fuk up. http://www.trojmiasto.pl/Historia-Gdanska-o9351.html Excerpts for our non-Polish speakers "In approximately 975 A.D from the initiative of Mieszko I a city with a harbor was built on the river Motlava, its name written down in "The life of Saint Wojciech" was Gyddanyz". Thats the first account of the city being there. "Archeologia Polski Wczesnośredniowiecznej" by Andrzej Buko with pictures and sites (also by German teams freebird so up your ass) proving conclusively that Gdańsk is inhabited almost exlusively by Poles for more than four centuries. Even more amusing is the fact that the oldest houses predating the establishment of Gdańsk are also from the Polish tribe of "Polanie" which would indicate that the region was inhabited by Poles as early as 8th century, it would also explain how it was able for a city to pop up in what was then hostile teritory.

freebirdThreads: 3 Posts: 638 Joined: Jun 8, 07	Edited by: freebird Jun 16, 09, 20:05 / #
Sokrates: How can you love history if you dont know it?:) you better say, I don't know the history you know (you learned your history in Poland, I didn't) and I might agree with that but if you're trying to ridicule me, you ain't gonna get anywhere with that crap and just make yourself look, let's say, not very smart to keep it nice with you. Sokrates: You're claiming that Germans have rights to historically Polish or Czech regions?:))))))) because according to what I've learned and experienced about it those territories belong to Germany. Just show me Polish word on any coin from Free City of Danzig, you can't. Why there's almost no Polish names in Danzig's history? Why so many houses in Danzig have German writings on it even tho they were beautifuly restored by Polish restorers? It's so many why, why, why aso. Seanus: Sokrates, you haven't refuted what I put to you. Namely that Bolesław Chrobry didn't win the territory in AD 997. He fought for it but the Prussians were just too strong and they didn't relinquish control. yep, a very important historical fact Sokrates: Poles didnt conquer Prussia because they were unwilling to commit genocide. yep, the warm hearted Poles :-) Just like they (with their friends the Soviets) never raped and killed German women on the way to Berlin.

freebirdThreads: 3 Posts: 638 Joined: Jun 8, 07	Edited by: freebird Jun 16, 09, 20:12 / #
PlasticPole: US to give a lot of land back to Mexico you already said it PlasticPole and I answered it too PlasticPole: or at least quit complaining about illegal immigration because the Mexicans show where I complained about illegal Mexaicans on this forum, just for the hell of it :-) Sokrates: Oh the teritory at the time was in reality Prussian, the city of Gdańsk however was Polish, be honest, you don't believe it yourself :-)

aphrodisiacThreads: 19 Posts: 3,907 Joined: Apr 15, 09	Jun 16, 09, 20:25 / #
PlasticPole: We need to stop obsessing on what was yesterday and focus on what is today :)))))) how about tomorrow:)

PlasticPoleThreads: 10 Posts: 5,181 Joined: May 28, 09	Jun 16, 09, 20:25 / #
freebird: Did I PP? All I asked for is you guys to admit that these territories weren't Polish befor 1945 what about the Polish Lithuanian commonwealth?

freebirdThreads: 3 Posts: 638 Joined: Jun 8, 07	Jun 16, 09, 20:26 / #
aphrodisiac: how about tomorrow:) FOR REAL :-) PlasticPole: what about the Polish Lithuanian commonwealth? what about it pp?

aphrodisiacThreads: 19 Posts: 3,907 Joined: Apr 15, 09	Edited by: aphrodisiac Jun 16, 09, 20:28 / #
freebird: FOR REAL :-) I am all for progress:), but those who like to wash their dirty laundry in the past, using stale stale water and what not will be wearing smelly cloth;)

PlasticPoleThreads: 10 Posts: 5,181 Joined: May 28, 09	Jun 16, 09, 20:37 / #
freebird: what about it pp? Gdańsk was part of the commonwealth at one time. It rebelled in 1575 so why do you think it is exclusively Prussian?

freebirdThreads: 3 Posts: 638 Joined: Jun 8, 07	Jun 16, 09, 20:55 / #
PlasticPole: It rebelled in 1575 so why do you think it is exclusively Prussian? I know history of Danzig and I know that it had a Polish period for about 300 years but people still spoke German (population was mainly German) in that time so I don't think that this will make any change in what I said before. As far as Lithuania and Poland, I suggest you ask Lithuanians how they feel about it but those few Lithuanians I've met didn't like Poles very much. I guess they must have their reasons.

PlasticPoleThreads: 10 Posts: 5,181 Joined: May 28, 09	Edited by: PlasticPole Jun 16, 09, 20:59 / #
freebird I'm sure there's a few exceptions where they got along but generally there's strife between ethnic groups who are all competing for the same resources so this phenomena is hardly unusual. When Stefan sweared in all of existing rights of Prussia Royale and Prussia Ducale,[9] and was recognized as a rightful ruler,[10] one city—Danzig—refused to do it and was still respecting Maximillian as King of Poland.[11] Danzig refused to recognize Bathory's authority, and the tensions grew as rioters looted and burned down an abbey in Oliwa.[7]

IronsideThreads: 56 Posts: 6,196 Joined: Feb 26, 09	Jun 16, 09, 23:53 / #
Bratwurst Boy: And then? And then???? if I ever get to the point - and then ....? - I'll answer then)))))) SRK85: Well this is obviously a tough question my ancestors came from areas like Tarnapol which is now in Ukraine. But the new areas gained from the Germans had better infrastructure and more industry. So Poland now is probably the best shape its been in since the Polish-Lithuanian Empire. Industry taken to Russia and infrastructure destroyed by war and most towns in ruin!! freebird: you mean like the rights for Germans to claim Danzig, Ostpreussen, Germans lost all the right during the WWII! freebird: I will tell you something freebird I know more about history then you ever will! I don't know what you are trying to prove here ? How many times do I have to repeat myself ? YES! BEFORE 1945 DISCUSSED LANDS WERE GERMAN! But Gdansk regardless long history of having majority of leading citizen Germanic (although there were population of Scots and Poles and others as Kingdom was multi ethnic) became German in the years after 1793. I we talking not about technicality here but about historical rights and according to that Poland had rights to Gdansk!

Bratwurst BoyThreads: 11 Posts: 14,563 Joined: Apr 2, 07	Jun 17, 09, 00:52 / #
Ironside: Germans lost all the right during the WWII! But most was taken already after WWI... WWII was started to get it all back! What now?

PlasticPoleThreads: 10 Posts: 5,181 Joined: May 28, 09	Jun 17, 09, 00:55 / #
Bratwurst Boy: What now? Now everything stays the same.

SokratesThreads: 19 Posts: 4,464 Joined: Jan 19, 09 [Suspended]	Jun 17, 09, 00:58 / #
Bratwurst Boy: You didn't do much with it during your polish times, didn't you....:) By the time Teutons conquered Gdańsk it was the richest harbor on the Baltic, during the time of Commonwealth it grew to a point where it became so rich it rebelled, so yeah i'd say most of Gdańsk development was our job, Germans came and took over an already developed city. But heyyyy we're still holding on to "Germany built everything and is uber" theory of yours right?:) Bratwurst Boy: Danzig is famous for their successful german sons and daughters, Riiiiiight, for the past 300 years? Or waiit do you mean "German" Kopernik who's father wad Polish, who fought Germans for the Polish king and who's works are influenced by his stay in Krakóws university?:)))) We've built Gdańsk, we've developed it, you came relatively late and took it over, selling Gdańsk as a German success is a blatant chauvinistic lie. freebird: Just show me Polish word on any coin from Free City of Danzig, you can't. Thats because the commonwealth used latin on its coins which you would know if you knew anything about Polish history and wasnt an opinionated moron, Polish coins were inscribed in Latin, you just learned something you little redneck. http://images.google.pl/imgres?imgurl=http://www.klaser.pl/img/04_KJ_G dansk/KJ_szel_gd_typ3(01).jpg&imgrefurl=http://www.klaser.pl/modules.p hp%3Fname%3DNews%26file%3Darticle%26sid%3D19&usg=__6_q8lVG0zuZZP9T79lH YDkFyJOo=&h=239&w=450&sz=20&hl=pl&start=15&sig2=RAJtQ88PIjjRRoA430IDOQ &um=1&tbnid=qs4KZ0XJwXclFM:&tbnh=67&tbnw=127&prev=/images%3Fq%3Dmonety %2Bgda%25C5%2584skie%26hl%3Dpl%26lr%3D%26um%3D1&ei=8iE4Stn3DIGMsAah8Yn HCQ POLISH szeląg with fron Gdańsk in 1457, with Polish kings coat of arms and "Casimir Rex Polonus" Casimir king of Poland. Anything else you want to learn or do you prefer to stay in your little barn and continue to spam idiocy? freebird: I know history of Danzig and I know that it had a Polish period for about 300 years but people still spoke German Again you're a moron, i'm not even going to bother quiting wikipedia since you ignore the sources, Tuetonic Knights conquer the city in 14th century, that means that the city was purely Polish for more then 450 years, it then retains a Polish majority well into 16th century, the primary language of upper classes of Danzing was latin since if you knew anything about history rather than humiliate yourself time and again you'd know Polish upper classes spoke latin, Polish documents and coins were in Latin and so on. So yes there's Polish coins, Polish books, Polish coats of arms and i can keep posting them if only you wouldnt ignore all those on account of being so merry stupid, i can live with BB being chauvinist, no one is perfect but idiocy just pisses me off.

Bratwurst BoyThreads: 11 Posts: 14,563 Joined: Apr 2, 07	Edited by: Bratwurst Boy Jun 17, 09, 01:02 / #
Sokrates: By the time Teutons conquered Gdańsk it was the richest harbor on the Baltic Oh pleeeeaaaaase.... Danzig got rich because of being a member of the Hanse (not a polish invention either). I know I know in your eyes Poles sh'ites gold but reality is very much different. No need to get your balls everytime in a twist when a non-pole tells some facts. Poles never did much with the riches they got. It was Germans who get things done! :) Sokrates: We've built Gdańsk, we've developed it, you came relatively late and took it over, selling Gdańsk as a German success is a blatant chauvinistic lie. Your talk is gross and cheap Sokrates. Why are the main sight seeing attractions in Danzig german? Why had Danzig their big times under german rule? Wanna compare the lists of famous german and famous polish Danziger Sokrates??? You have now polish signs up but again you fail to make an imprint! Sokrates: We've built Gdańsk, we've developed it, you came relatively late and took it over, selling Gdańsk as a German success is a blatant chauvinistic lie. yeah sure... http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Golden_Gate_(Gda%C5%84sk) ....Destroyed in World War II, it was rebuilt in 1957. The original German inscription has recently been restored: Es müsse wohl gehen denen, die dich lieben. Es müsse Friede sein inwendig in deinen Mauern und Glück in deinen Palästen The city has many fine buildings from the time of the Hanseatic League. Most tourist attractions are located along or near Ulica Długa (Long Street) and Długi Targ (Long Market), a pedestrian thoroughfare surrounded by buildings reconstructed in historical (primarily 17th century) style and flanked at both ends by elaborate city gates. This part of the city is sometimes referred to as the Royal Road as the former path of processions for visiting kings. Without the Germans your Gdansk would have sh*it to show off! Lech Walesa isn't going to cut it...:):):) PS: Yes Danzig is Gdansk now but to show off tourists the old, famous, beautiful Danzig and to say it's all polish is just a lie and everybody who has just an inkling of history knows that, period! http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/St._Mary%27s_Church,_Gda%C5%84sk ...Since 1485 the works were carried over by Hans Brandt, who supervised the erection of the main nave core. The works were finally finished after 1496 under Heinrich Haetzl, who supervised the construction of the vaulting....

PlasticPoleThreads: 10 Posts: 5,181 Joined: May 28, 09	Jun 17, 09, 01:15 / #
Bratwurst Boy: PS: Yes Danzig is Gdansk now but to show off tourists the old, famous, beautiful Danzig and to say it's all polish is just a lie and everybody who has just an inkling of history knows that, period! It's not all Polish but it belongs to Poland now and they get to keep it :D Like many cities it is a mixture of different cultures.