Poland before WWII or Poland now what would you choose?

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NathanThreads: 33 Posts: 1,846 Joined: Feb 13, 09	Edited by: Nathan Jun 7, 09, 05:15 / #
Sokrates: You're just bitter because your grandfather plowed the fields of my grandfather Nathan, dont worry we'll take over soon enough:) My grand-grandfather had 30 ha of field, he had many workers, which respected him a lot. My grandfather ended up with a little field (where I helped out a bit as well), because the rest was taken by communists. As of working for your granfather, well, my grandpa never was in Poland, so... About taking over - what's keeping you? Come on. Or you out of horses? ;)) Not a big deal - we will fight with no tanks, ok? ;)) We are not as unpredictable as Germans. ;))

sjamThreads: 5 Posts: 1,016 Joined: Jan 13, 09	Jun 7, 09, 09:23 / #
Salomon: Milions of Polish people didn't receved compenations. The Berlin (Potsdam) Conference, July 17-August 2, 1945 III. REPARATIONS FROM GERMANY. 2. The U. S. S. R. undertakes to settle the reparation claims of Poland from its own share of reparations. Salomon: I don't understand Maybe when you contact the Kremlin they will help your understanding as to where Poland's share of the $10 billion reparations went to. You might even find that the Soviet Union actually paid out for Poland's post-war reconstruction, because if the money didn't come from the SU where did it come from? From Poland's gold reserves that were repatriated from Canada after the war? I don't think so.

SalomonThreads: 6 Posts: 602 Joined: Apr 7, 09	Edited by: Salomon Jun 7, 09, 14:45 / #
sjam: III. REPARATIONS FROM GERMANY.2. The U. S. S. R. undertakes to settle the reparation claims of Poland from its own share of reparations. Well ... Why Germans payed for Soviet Union ? Poland haven't receved single dollar from Soviets. It is German problem that they payed money for wrong country. It is good that thy haven't payed Polish comenasations for North Korea. LOL What is more Soviet Union invaded Poland with Nazi Germany in 1939. I don't know why they received this money ...

NathanThreads: 33 Posts: 1,846 Joined: Feb 13, 09	Edited by: Nathan Jun 7, 09, 15:40 / #
Salomon: Well ... Why Germans payed for Soviet Union ? Poland haven't receved single dollar from Soviets. It is German problem that they payed money for wrong country. I like your stupid logic, Salomon. And I see many will do the same. You are willing to accuse anyone, but say anything against Russians. Germany was destroyed and they would have signed to pay anyone who had any word in it. Neither Poland, nor Ukraine had a say in it. Soviets stole the money and it is not Germans' fault that they didn't hear Polish voice when they were paying off. Russia is responsible for the money as it declared itself as rightful descendant of Soviet Union taking all the money SU had with all the debts (Russia crossed out all the debts right away). And I see you will defend Russia's accusation of Poland causing the WW2, hm? What else, Salomon?

SalomonThreads: 6 Posts: 602 Joined: Apr 7, 09	Edited by: Salomon Jun 7, 09, 15:59 / #
You are stupid Nathan. Germany payed money for wrong country. It is not Polands business. As I've said it is good that they haven't payed it for Iran, North Korea or Egipt. LOL Germans payed money for their ally form 1939 with whom they invaded Poland.

sjamThreads: 5 Posts: 1,016 Joined: Jan 13, 09	Edited by: sjam Jun 7, 09, 16:07 / #
Salomon: Well ... Why Germans payed for Soviet Union ? Well... why do you think? Salomon: Poland haven't receved single dollar from Soviets. You can't prove this with any facts, this is just your opinion. Where did the monies for Poland's immediate post-war reconstruction come from? I have given you the contact details for the Russian Presidential Office. So contact them and ask why they stole Poland's share of reparations or would you like me to do it for you since you obviously still need spoon-feeding. LOL. Salomon: It is German problem that they payed money for wrong country. Quite clearly this is Poland's problem not Germany's as you keep saying Germany should have "'payed money" to Poland not USSR. But actually there is no problem after all, as both the Polish and German governments agreed in 2004 that there was no legal basis for either country to pay reparations to each other. Maybe you should contact the Polish government and ask them why they decided not to persue this further? Salomon: Germans payed money for their ally form 1939 Lets not forget that Nazi Germany was an ally of Poland at one time: The German-Polish Non-Aggression Pact an international treaty between Nazi Germany and Poland signed on January 26, 1934.

SalomonThreads: 6 Posts: 602 Joined: Apr 7, 09	Edited by: Salomon Jun 7, 09, 16:13 / #
sjam: Where did the monies for Poland's immediate post-war reconstruction come from? Do you know how Polands recnostruction looked like.... Socialistic ... everybody worked. Poland haven't received single dollar from Soviets and also Soviets forbiden for Poland to participate in Marshal plan ... sjam: Quite clearly this is Poland's problem not Germany's as you keep saying Germany should have "'payed money" to Poland not USSR. Of course they should pay it for Poland not for USSR. Maybe Poland should pay some current debts for North Korea and tell creditors that they should talk with North Korea. LOL sjam: But actually there is no problem after all, as both the Polish and German governments agreed in 2004 that there was no legal basis for either country to pay reparations to each other. Maybe you should contact the Polish government and ask them why they decided not to persue this further? Well ... if it is somebodys merci it is Polish merci. In my opinion it is totaly wrong. Poland was invaded by Soviets and Germans in 1939. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Molotov-Ribbentrop_Pact In addition to stipulations of non-aggression, the treaty included a secret protocol dividing Eastern Europe into German and Soviet spheres of influence, anticipating potential "territorial and political rearrangements" of these countries. Thereafter, Germany and the Soviet Union invaded their respective portions of Poland, followed by Soviet annexations of Estonia, Latvia, Lithuania and northern Romania. Part of eastern Finland was annexed by the Soviet Union after an attempted invasion. Soviet and German officers meeting after the invasion of Poland

IronsideThreads: 56 Posts: 6,196 Joined: Feb 26, 09	Jun 7, 09, 16:31 / #
Nathan: Can you prove Mickiewicz was Polish or Napoleon was French? What about Mieszko or Plato? ;) Sure I can (don't care about Napoleon or Plato). Can you prove that Daniel was Ukrainian? Bratwurst Boy: Without the new borders for the newly build countries like Poland there hadn't been a war... without German state there would hadn't been two wars - that an idea - better safe then sorry ! ))

Jun 7, 09, 16:32 / #

This German map shows how Poland looked at the beginning. Thanks Germans. Pomerania was slavic groups including Kaszubian. Prussia was slavic group that worshiped the snake.

Slavic groups inhabited parts of what is now northern Germany including Rostock and Lubeck until they were kicked out by westward Germans.

Gdansk was established by a Slavic monk. Mieszko simply took it over. Mieszko did not one day say here will be a sea town. The monk did that. Nothing to do with Germany.

Slavs occupied northern Europe first. The Germans came down from Scandinavia afterwards and took over . Remember Poland is over 1000 years old. Germany is couple hundred years old.

This map shows Lviv as in Ukraine. Poland took over Lviv to develop Lwow. Lwow is pretty much a Polish town in the Ukrane. Like having an adopted child. Try taking a child away from parents that adopt it. Lwow should be Ukranian but open for all to develop - like all cities should be.

Wilno became Polish through friendly marriage of King and Queen. Why we fighting over Wilno?

Finally - I am convinced that Bratworst is a Fictionary character made up by the Polish Forums to inspire/provoke debate and cause Poles to defend their country and history because I can't beleive one person could consistantly come onto this forum and be so wrong each time. You lose your arguments and just say, " just get over it/move on/blah blah...)

NathanThreads: 33 Posts: 1,846 Joined: Feb 13, 09	Jun 7, 09, 16:48 / #
Ogorki: Like having an adopted child. Try taking a child away from parents that adopt it Like having taken back a stolen child. From fake parents that stole it and keep on whining. Otherwise, Ogorki, good point. I think Ironside and Sokrates should look at Przemysl on your map. Ironside: Sure I can Prove.

OgorkiThreads: - Posts: 128 Joined: Aug 4, 08	Jun 7, 09, 16:50 / #
Gdansk - yet the first time we hear of it is 997 Then a bishop voyaging in the train of Prince Boleslaw the Brave conducted a mass baptism in the port town, or urbs, without realising he was marking an official birth too. The date appears in the writings of the scribe Johannis Cannaparius, a Benedicte monk, who dutifully recorded Gdansk as having been visited by Bishop Adalbert. Yes Germans lived there. It's not our fault they are a pushy outspoken bunch and get their names recorded as living there. http://www.historytoday.com/MainArticle.aspx?m=13497&amid=13497

SokratesThreads: 19 Posts: 4,464 Joined: Jan 19, 09 [Suspended]	Jun 7, 09, 16:51 / #
Nathan: Like having taken back a stolen child. From fake parents that stole it and keep on whining. Otherwise, Ogorki, good point. I think Ironside and Sokrates should look at Przemysl on your map. Oh come on Nathan, its proven scientifically that Ukrainian people aint human and have no souls, how can you claim you have right to anything?

NathanThreads: 33 Posts: 1,846 Joined: Feb 13, 09	Edited by: Nathan Jun 7, 09, 16:55 / #
Sokrates: Nathan aint human and have no souls It is better to be inhuman and without soul than having all that and treat it like garbage.

SalomonThreads: 6 Posts: 602 Joined: Apr 7, 09	Edited by: Salomon Jun 7, 09, 17:04 / #
According to this map I have Prussian Jazwingen origin :) http://www.moikrewni.pl/mapa/kompletny/sadowski.html First Pole in USA :) http://www.poles.org/DB/S_names/Sadowski_A/Sadowski_art.html Nathan do you think that Lithuenians should have the right to expel me just because I have Polish national identity. The problem is that Poles never expeled annybody in Wilno or . Unlike the Germans in Gdańsk or in Prussia... Anny way it is not Poland who should fight over the maps. Decisions were made somewhere ealse.

OgorkiThreads: - Posts: 128 Joined: Aug 4, 08	Jun 7, 09, 17:07 / #
Nathan: I think Ironside and Sokrates should look at Przemysl on your map. Przemysl was first invaded by the Hungarians. How it ended up Polish is unclear. How do you know it was by force? Like I said earlier - Wilnius became Polish through friendly marriage between King and Queen. It was mutual. Countries can gain land peacefully also. Can you confirm history of Przemysl and how it became Polish? Can you confirm how Lviv became Polish? Maybe they lost it in a bet? Sold it? Who knows?

NathanThreads: 33 Posts: 1,846 Joined: Feb 13, 09	Edited by: Nathan Jun 7, 09, 17:10 / #
Salomon: right to expel Show me one place where I said anything about expulsion based on any reason whatsoever. I don't need to confirm about my city anything. I know it was and is Ukrainian. If you are interested in history of Lviv, there are plenty of literature.

IronsideThreads: 56 Posts: 6,196 Joined: Feb 26, 09	Jun 7, 09, 17:14 / #
Nathan: Prove You first, i asked first..... Anyway you should stop silly sulkiness and admit that you are Polish ! http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aqVHjz73L28 Ogorki: Yes Germans lived there. It's not our fault they are a pushy outspoken bunch and get their names recorded as living there. So what? Germans are maniacs to be keep in check, and under control : http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3jwXQFFLSHo

OgorkiThreads: - Posts: 128 Joined: Aug 4, 08	Jun 7, 09, 17:15 / #
Sokrates: Oh come on Nathan, its proven scientifically that Ukrainian people aint human and have no souls Thats not constructive. One day I'd like to visit Lviv/Lwow and buy a burger with a Ukranian friend and then maybe start renovating those bloody buildings before they fall down

SeanusThreads: 22 Posts: 30,160 Joined: Dec 25, 07	Jun 7, 09, 17:17 / #
Try renovating some buildings here first, type in Gliwice ghetto to Youtube.

NathanThreads: 33 Posts: 1,846 Joined: Feb 13, 09	Jun 7, 09, 17:22 / #
Ogorki: renovating those bloody buildings They won't fall and many are under reconstruction now. But, hey, help is always of great value, Ogorki. I agree absolutely that everything has to be done to bring the city to the top notch.

SalomonThreads: 6 Posts: 602 Joined: Apr 7, 09	Edited by: Salomon Jun 7, 09, 17:25 / #
Nathan: I don't need to confirm about my city anything. I know it was and is Ukrainian. If you are interested in history of Lviv, there are plenty of literature. So why majority of its citizens fought against incorporation into Ukraine ? LOL Or Wilno http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Republic_of_Central_Lithuania Where its citzens made pro-Polish uprise.... Anny way. the fact that Poland lost this cities and so many of its citzens were expeled after WWII to Poland ... show only how much Poland had to say after WWII... As to Germans they wanted to expele all ethnic Poles from Poland ... it is much different story.

IronsideThreads: 56 Posts: 6,196 Joined: Feb 26, 09	Edited by: Ironside Jun 7, 09, 17:26 / #
Nathan: They Can't prove Nathan? )))))))))) Now admit you are Polish! http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1p9i8Rwnlgo What buildings Seanus?

SalomonThreads: 6 Posts: 602 Joined: Apr 7, 09	Jun 7, 09, 17:32 / #
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Toruń After World War II, the population increased more than twofold and industry developed significantly. However, one of the most important events of the post-war era was the founding of the Nicolaus Copernicus University in 1945. Over the years, it has become one of the better universities in Poland. Its existence has influenced the life of the city enormously, as well as its perception by non-locals. The University itself was founded by Polish professors of the University of Wilno, who were forced to abandon their native city and move to post-1945 Poland.

NathanThreads: 33 Posts: 1,846 Joined: Feb 13, 09	Jun 7, 09, 17:33 / #
Ironside: Now admit you are Polish! I know you want it badly, Iron :). No, I am Ukrainian. The song is really beautiful :)

SalomonThreads: 6 Posts: 602 Joined: Apr 7, 09	Edited by: Salomon Jun 7, 09, 17:35 / #
Nathan: I know you want it badly, Iron :). No, I am Ukrainian. The song is really beautiful :) You murdered natives from Lwów ... and people who simple moved there from Poland ...

SeanusThreads: 22 Posts: 30,160 Joined: Dec 25, 07	Jun 7, 09, 17:44 / #
Building in central Gliwice are full of holes and are crumbling too. Ironside, you sound imperialistic. Nathan is Ukrainian. It's not his fault that Poland couldn't get its act together politically. Poland needs to know what it wants more. Polish history has shown how many blow with the breeze, like leaves. Look at Gomułka, he was very popular and quickly lost it. Many can't even admit that communist sentiment came from within, albeit not of the type that Russia envisaged and promoted. Look at Cyrankiewicz for example. Russia offered Poles hope, some of their proposals were attractive at that time. It was sth like the hope that Hitler seemed to offer Germans. Full employment was the main pull, coupled with the cessation of the war.

sjamThreads: 5 Posts: 1,016 Joined: Jan 13, 09	Jun 7, 09, 17:48 / #
Salomon: Poland was invaded by Soviets ... and guess what by 1941 Poland and Soviet Union were allies again!

SeanusThreads: 22 Posts: 30,160 Joined: Dec 25, 07	Jun 7, 09, 17:54 / #
Maybe they thought the Non-Aggression Pact would hold. That would have been naive though.

SalomonThreads: 6 Posts: 602 Joined: Apr 7, 09	Edited by: Salomon Jun 7, 09, 17:57 / #
As to Soviets it is enought to see what have happened fro memebers of the most popular anti-Nazi resistance underground were muredered or imprisoned. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Armia_Krajowa In late 1943, the actions of Soviet partisans, who were ordered to liquidate the AK forces Even then, the main forces of the Red Army and the NKVD conducted operations against the AK partisans, including during or directly after the Polish Operation Tempest, which was designed by the Poles to be a joint Polish-Soviet action against the retreating Germans and to establish Polish claims to those territories. AK helped Soviet units with scouting or organizing uprisings and helping to liberate various cities (ex. Operation Ostra Brama, Lwów Uprising), only to find that immediately afterwards AK troops were arrested, imprisoned – or even executed. Unknown to the Poles, Stalin's aim to ensure that an independent Poland would never reemerge in the postwar period made the Operation Tempest idea fatally flawed from the beginning. Soviet forces continued to engage the elements of AK long after the war. Many AK soldiers continued fight after World War II in anti-Soviet Polish underground, known as the cursed soldiers. And later Germany payed compensation for Soviets LOL ... What is more Poles were expeled form towns on east... and it only shows how much Poles had to say after the war. What is more: http://www.geocities.com/Pentagon/9764/warpoland.html Poland lost 38% of it's national assets, as compared to Britain which lost 0.8% and France which lost 1.5%.

SeanusThreads: 22 Posts: 30,160 Joined: Dec 25, 07	Jun 7, 09, 18:07 / #
Salomon, talk is cheap. Look at the ME peace process as the prime example. You had all the academics ruminating and politicians blowing air but the truth of the matter was that higher powers would always dictate the course of events.