Poland before WWII or Poland now what would you choose?

sjam:

"On 16th August 1945 the Polish Provisional Government of National Unity signed an agreement in Moscow according to which the Soviet Union was to give 15% of the war reparations it received (1.5 billion dollars) to Poland and at the same time the Soviet side relinquished all claims German property and other assets found within the new boundaries of Poland. Despite this agreement, plunder continued to be a means of ‘supplying’ Soviet units stationed in Poland.

sjam:

Why isn't the Polish government demanding compensation from Soviet Union for losses and extortion suffered at the hands of the Soviets during WWII and the post-war periods?

NathanThreads: 33 Posts: 1,846 Joined: Feb 13, 09	Jun 7, 09, 18:07 / #
Salomon: In late 1943, the actions of Soviet partisans, who were ordered to liquidate the AK forces Yeh, these Germans were beasts. First, they made Soviets to kill AK soldiers and then paid money to Soviets. Oh, these Germans...;)

SalomonThreads: 6 Posts: 602 Joined: Apr 7, 09	Edited by: Salomon Jun 7, 09, 18:10 / #
Nathan: Yeh, these Germans were beasts. First, they made Soviets to kill AK soldiers and then paid money to Soviets. Oh, these Germans... First of all Nathan Germans are first country which tells Poland to forget about you and let Russians dominate Ukraine. In my opinion they might be right... (for all Polish people - read Nathan) As to Germans ... they destryed Warsaw... and other Polish cities... and payed money for wrong country.

NathanThreads: 33 Posts: 1,846 Joined: Feb 13, 09	Jun 7, 09, 18:24 / #
Salomon: First of all Nathan Germans are first country which tells Poland to forget about you and let Russians dominate Ukraine. In my opinion they might be right... (for all Polish people - read Nathan) As to Germans ... they destryed Warsaw... and other Polish cities... and payed money for wrong country. Nobody will dominate anyone unless someone will let itself to be dominated. Poland should choose the best way for its citizens - this is priority. I said it many times that I am grateful for any political support possible from Poland. No matter what Poland does, it should do in her own interests - not in anyone else's. You should not sacrifice anything. Do whatever you see right for the future of Polish people. That's it.

IronsideThreads: 56 Posts: 6,196 Joined: Feb 26, 09	Jun 7, 09, 18:28 / #
Nathan: I know you want it badly, Iron :). No, I am Ukrainian. The song is really beautiful :) I want only for you to face the truth !!! Original song: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=e2yvjatUjpY And Nathan trying to prove something : http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nGe0w62HuY0 Seanus: Many can't even admit that communist sentiment came from within, albeit not of the type that Russia envisaged and promoted. Look at Cyrankiewicz for example. Russia offered Poles hope, some of their proposals were attractive at that time. It was sth like the hope that Hitler seemed to offer Germans. Full employment was the main pull, coupled with the cessation of the war. There was no sympathy whatsoever for Soviets and Communism, prewar intelligentsia had same hopes for Polish socialisms. Poland was subdued by sher force! Seanus: Building in central Gliwice are full of holes and are crumbling too. S*theads responsible should be put against the wall and shot ! Seanus: Ironside, you sound imperialistic. What do you mean?

NathanThreads: 33 Posts: 1,846 Joined: Feb 13, 09	Jun 7, 09, 18:34 / #
Ironside: I want only for you to face the truth !!! I am facing it everyday. At least, I try. :) I like these songs a lot.

SeanusThreads: 22 Posts: 30,160 Joined: Dec 25, 07	Edited by: Seanus Jun 7, 09, 18:38 / #
Exactly, Ironside. Completely subdued. The Byrne speech of 1956 didn't help either. Against the wall? Nah, we don't need to see that again. I meant that some Poles would still like to expand and take back parts of Ukraine and Lithuania.

ZIMMYThreads: 10 Posts: 2,243 Joined: Feb 21, 09	Jun 7, 09, 18:58 / #
Nathan: So why do you bark about L'viv? ..........."who was the owner originally" - hypocrisy, isn't it? .........ZIMMY: Remember your words and don't change them later. No barking, if you go thru my posts you will not find me mentioning L'viv, not even once. I will not "remember [my] words" or "change them later" as I have not spoken that which you accuse me of. Have a good day.

IronsideThreads: 56 Posts: 6,196 Joined: Feb 26, 09	Edited by: Ironside Jun 7, 09, 18:59 / #
Nathan: I like these songs a lot. I like this song and Natalie too!: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bdbaTlRrnwY be good and admit )))))0 more songs : http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rIXfSRYN-lY

IronsideThreads: 56 Posts: 6,196 Joined: Feb 26, 09	Jun 7, 09, 19:19 / #
Seanus: I meant that some Poles would still like to expand and take back parts of Ukraine and Lithuania. Whats wrong with that? Seanus: Against the wall? Nah, we don't need to see that again. Again? You mean in Scotland?

NathanThreads: 33 Posts: 1,846 Joined: Feb 13, 09	Edited by: Nathan Jun 7, 09, 20:02 / #
Ironside: be good and admit )))))0 I admit that you have some blood that I do - Ukrainian. Welcome, brate. :))))

lesserThreads: 7 Posts: 2,014 Joined: Oct 19, 07	Edited by: lesser Jun 7, 09, 20:27 / #
Poland before WWII or Poland now what would you choose? Before WWII I would chose pre-war Poland, today I would chose post-war Poland. I do really think that Poland overtaking bastion of Ukrainian and Lithuanian nationalism is a very bad idea. Would those people whom advocate such ideas really want to live in one state with several thousands (at best!) of Nathans?

freebirdThreads: 3 Posts: 638 Joined: Jun 8, 07	Jun 8, 09, 00:02 / #
I figure, there's not much love between Poles and Ukrainians :-)

freebirdThreads: 3 Posts: 638 Joined: Jun 8, 07	Jun 8, 09, 02:21 / #
A question to our Polish friends around here, how do you guys feel about your neighbors especially Lithuanians and Ukrainians?

IronsideThreads: 56 Posts: 6,196 Joined: Feb 26, 09	Jun 8, 09, 18:15 / #
freebird: A question to our Polish friends around here, how do you guys feel about your neighbors especially Lithuanians and Ukrainians? Lithuanian government should at one stop discrimination of their citizen of Polish nationality(give them back property) and start to obey EU law and international agreements about right of the minority's ! Don't understand why they are getting away with it ???Nobody care, which strengthen my point about Polish politicians - self serving bastards! Ukrainian should realize that their border with Poland is no right and some 3 - 4 m people from so called "western Ukraine", should not made such a great impact on the 55 m people living in the Ukrainian state ! freebird: you're right about that again Ironside as long as you give Germans the same rights. What rights ? And why the same in the first place??????? Salomon: agree lesser: today psy and psy = one big p**sy ? or two small ones ? http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=REQRHdMRimw

SalomonThreads: 6 Posts: 602 Joined: Apr 7, 09	Edited by: Salomon Jun 7, 09, 20:28 / #
Seanus: I meant that some Poles would still like to expand and take back parts of Ukraine and Lithuania. I meant that before somebody will ask Poles for something.... they should think about other unsolved issues (I doubt that one day they will be solved). What is more chnages after WWII only shows that Poland was on loosers side durring WWII. Poland lost milions of its citizens. Polish cites were devastated ... Poland was robbed ... it was close to total anhilation of Polish nation. Compensations were given for somebody ealse. Before WWII I would chose pre-war Poland, today I would chose post-war Poland. agree

IronsideThreads: 56 Posts: 6,196 Joined: Feb 26, 09	Jun 7, 09, 21:32 / #
Nathan: I admit that you have some blood that I do - Ukrainian. Welcome, brate. :)))) thats all very nice but it would not stop your heroes from UPA> Salomon: agree ***** >

freebirdThreads: 3 Posts: 638 Joined: Jun 8, 07	Jun 8, 09, 06:08 / #
Ironside: Whats wrong with that? you're right about that again Ironside as long as you give Germans the same rights.

sjamThreads: 5 Posts: 1,016 Joined: Jan 13, 09	Jun 8, 09, 09:13 / #
Salomon: As to Germans ... they destryed Warsaw... and other Polish cities... and payed money for wrong country. "On 16th August 1945 the Polish Provisional Government of National Unity signed an agreement in Moscow according to which the Soviet Union was to give 15% of the war reparations it received (1.5 billion dollars) to Poland and at the same time the Soviet side relinquished all claims German property and other assets found within the new boundaries of Poland. Despite this agreement, plunder continued to be a means of ‘supplying’ Soviet units stationed in Poland. This agreement proved to be extremely costly because it obliged the Polish side to provide the USSR with coal at a fixed price that was just 10% of the coal’s market value. This extortionate rate forced the Polish government to renegotiate the deal. On 5th March 1947 it signed new conditions to the agreement by which the amount of coal it was obliged to deliver to the Soviet Union was reduced by half but at the same time it also reduced Poland’s war reparations claim by half to only 7.5% of the reparations the Soviet Union received." So once again you need to ask the Kremlin what it did with Poland's due compensation I have given you the contact details to make it easy for you :-)) Why isn't the Polish government demanding compensation from Soviet Union for losses and extortion suffered at the hands of the Soviets during WWII and the post-war periods? Is this something you yourself are working on? Here is the article link which shows just how Soviets plundered Poland after WWII .... and as the ad says "Where there's blame there's a claim" :-)) or is it something like " Там, где есть винить есть претензии"

freebirdThreads: 3 Posts: 638 Joined: Jun 8, 07	Edited by: freebird Jun 8, 09, 16:56 / #
sjam: "On 16th August 1945 the Polish Provisional Government of National Unity signed an agreement in Moscow according to which the Soviet Union was to give 15% of the war reparations it received (1.5 billion dollars) to Poland and at the same time the Soviet side relinquished all claims German property and other assets found within the new boundaries of Poland. Despite this agreement, plunder continued to be a means of ‘supplying’ Soviet units stationed in Poland. your friends the Soviets, what a bull, ain't it? sjam: Why isn't the Polish government demanding compensation from Soviet Union for losses and extortion suffered at the hands of the Soviets during WWII and the post-war periods? for real, an important point.

freebirdThreads: 3 Posts: 638 Joined: Jun 8, 07	Jun 8, 09, 18:48 / #
Ironside: What rights ? your country size has changed after the WWII and you still claim some territories in once eastern Poland right? If so, isn't it the same with Germans claiming their once eastern part? I don't see any difference, if you claim parts of Lithuania and Ukraine then why don't give give Germans the same right to claim what used to belong to them before WWII? Don't get me wrong but if you can then why can't they?

Bratwurst BoyThreads: 11 Posts: 14,563 Joined: Apr 2, 07	Jun 8, 09, 20:29 / #
freebird: Don't get me wrong but if you can then why can't they? Because they are Poles???

freebirdThreads: 3 Posts: 638 Joined: Jun 8, 07	Edited by: freebird Jun 8, 09, 22:23 / #
Bratwurst Boy: Because they are Poles??? let's just give them a chance to discuss this problem. I strongly believe, I have a point there so guys now it's time for you to explain it please(especially Ironside). I found a very interesting "short story of an City State of Danzig" please read it here's one sentence taken out of this story: "The UNO, the successor of the Geneva League of Nations, formally established on August 24, 1945 by less than 50 Nations, was dominated by the communist Block from the very beginning of its inception at San Francisco. And it was the communist Block, a communist Poland in particular, that pressured the other Members of the "free world" to wipe the Free State of Danzig off the Maps, and sanction " Genocide", better known today as 'ethnic cleansing' of her people. and here the site for those who may be interested (it's not written by the Germans) http://www.danzigfreestate.org/history.html

SalomonThreads: 6 Posts: 602 Joined: Apr 7, 09	Edited by: Salomon Jun 9, 09, 00:03 / #
sjam: sjam As to post WWII reality : Poland was the first item on the Soviet agenda; Stalin stated the Soviet case:“ For the Russian people, the question of Poland is not only a question of honor but also a question of security. Throughout history, Poland has been the corridor through which the enemy has passed into Russia. Twice in the last thirty years our enemies, the Germans, have passed through this corridor. It is in Russia’s interest that Poland should be strong and powerful, in a position to shut the door of this corridor by her own force…It is necessary that Poland should be free, independent in power. Therefore, it is not only a question of honor but of life and death for the Soviet state. ” Accordingly, Stalin stipulated that Polish government-in-exile demands were not negotiable: the Soviet Union would keep the territory of eastern Poland they had already annexed in 1939, and Poland was to be compensated for that by extending its Western borders at the expense of Germany. Stalin promised free elections in Poland despite the recently-installed by him Communist puppet government in liberated by the Red Army Polish territories. However the Western Powers soon realized that Stalin would not honor his free elections promise. The fraudulent Polish elections, held in January 16, 1947 resulted in Poland's official transformation to undemocratic communist state by 1949. Poland had nothing to say ... and leaders of supported by majority anti -Nazi underground were in prisons or were executed. What is more it is interesting that Sjam legitiamtes one Polish puppet comunist goverment actions and claims to be illigal others...

IronsideThreads: 56 Posts: 6,196 Joined: Feb 26, 09	Jun 9, 09, 00:30 / #
freebird: Don't get me wrong but if you can then why can't they? In Germany there is organization which for a long time now were lobbying for return of lost lands. They have serious friends in the German politics. In Poland such force doesn't exist. So Germans not only can claim their "rights" but are working for it from the beginning. Germans were not happy with prewar border, they conduct during IIWW was such that Poland deserves compensation - in my view, and view of the USA, SU and UK - those lands were such compensation! Anyways rights of Poland to those land is much stronger then rights of Ukraine to territories lost to Soviet Union . Bratwurst Boy: Because they are Poles??? Heh and Germans should be keep under close watch - their are maniacs )))))) http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3jwXQFFLSHo

SalomonThreads: 6 Posts: 602 Joined: Apr 7, 09	Edited by: Salomon Jun 9, 09, 00:38 / #
As to German and WWII ... they had very interesting aim : http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Generalplan_Ost After the war, under the "Big Plan", GPO foresaw the eventual expulsion of more than 50 million non-Germanized Slavs of Eastern Europe through forced migration, as well as some of the Balts (especially almost all of Lithuanians) through "voluntary" migration, beyond the Ural Mountains and into Siberia. In their place, up to 8-10 million Germans would be settled in an extended "living space" (Lebensraum) of the 1000-Year Empire (Tausendjähriges Reich). In 1941 it was decided to destroy the Polish nation completely and the German leadership decided that in 10 to 20 years the Polish state under German occupation was to be fully cleared of any ethnic Poles Germans knew this plans it was bestseller in pre WWII Germany long before his peak of power : http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mein_Kampf Advertising for Mein Kampf (mid 1930s)

NathanThreads: 33 Posts: 1,846 Joined: Feb 13, 09	Jun 9, 09, 00:43 / #
Ironside: Anyways, rights of Poland to those lands are much stronger then rights of Poland to territories stolen by Poland from Ukraine. Luckily Ukraine took back its territory. True.

IronsideThreads: 56 Posts: 6,196 Joined: Feb 26, 09	Jun 9, 09, 00:54 / #
Nathan: Anyways, rights of Poland to those lands are much stronger then rights of Ukraine to territories stolen by Soviets from Poland. Luckily Ukraine will give back that territory very soon. At last Nathan you are right!!! What about your UPA heroes? avoidance avoidance ?))))) Ironside: thats all very nice but it would not stop your heroes from UPA>

NathanThreads: 33 Posts: 1,846 Joined: Feb 13, 09	Jun 9, 09, 01:07 / #
Ironside: Ironside: thats all very nice but it would not stop your heroes from UPA> I wanted to answer it, but I didn't understand completely. Oh, ok I see... Ukrainians are very patient and kind people. War is a war and shite happens. But you cannot put everyone under one line in UPA as well as I can't do it to Armija Krajowa. You see - you hate UPA and I hate Armija Krajowa. Where does it lead us - you are a Polish and I am Ukrainian. I saw AK soldiers on Pulaski parade proudly marching even though some of them murdered innocent women and kids (don't tell me your side's ***** statements about AK arch-angels - we are both adults, right?). The same you feel about soldiers of UPA, some of whom killed the same way. Where do we end up in this hatred? Nowhere. Because neither you, nor me will make a step back in our opinion. This leads us to constant hostility. It is nonsense. The best way to resolve this issue is for each country to celebrate their heros and don't tell what others have to do. Read Bible: Before looking to take a splinter out of your brother's eye, take a log out of your own.

IronsideThreads: 56 Posts: 6,196 Joined: Feb 26, 09	Jun 9, 09, 01:21 / #
Nathan: I I will not answer right now as I'm under influence of alcohol, I will think about it!

NathanThreads: 33 Posts: 1,846 Joined: Feb 13, 09	Jun 9, 09, 01:31 / #
Ironside: I will not answer right now as I'm under influence of alcohol I thought you always were..;)